23 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine!

[robert derrick]

In Matthew 28:19-20 Christ instructs His disciples: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the age [Gr. or aion].”

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Which is after the thousand years are expired, and Gog and Magog are devoured from off the earth.

2 Peter 3 will be fulfilled at some time afterward, whether before or during or after this world flees from the face of God.

It will at least be before the new heaven and earth is created, and the old world is passed away.

Jesus, here, outlines the great commission and then gives His disciples a pledge that He will be with them until it is fulfilled at the end of the age. The Lord has promised that He would be faithful to His Church right up until the end. He would not leave or forsake His people. The presence and help of Christ with His people are carefully connected to the spread of the Gospel in this age. That partnership is shown to last until the end. He is here now with His people to use their weak efforts in the great commission for the extension of His kingdom. And He uses their voice and their feet for His glory.

We should carefully note that the conclusion of the evangelisation of the nations is identified with the end of this current age. This perfectly correlates with the teaching of the parables. The conclusion of the spread of the Gospel to “all nations” sees the collective judging of “all nations” immediately following. Christ gives no promise of His assistance, favour or empowerment after this, as some would try and suggest. In fact, there is no hope given to the godly after the ark door is finally closed at His return.

It is clear to see, the presence and help of Christ with His people are carefully connected to the spread of the Gospel in this age. That partnership is shown to last until the end of this age. He is here now with his people to use their puny efforts in the great commission for the extension of his kingdom. And He uses their voice and their feet for His glory.

Would Preterists really argue that our Lord was only with His people up until AD70? Such a proposition is ridiculous! Every fair-minded Bible student knows, this promise relates to Christ’s faithfulness right up until His glorious return.

Johnathan Menn explains: “The responsibility of the Great Commission - to teach a nurse lost souls – was commensurate with that era preceding “the end of the world [age]” (Matthew 28:18–20). If “the end of the world [age]” occurred in AD70 then the Lord’s commission is valid no longer. This conclusion of course, is absurd” (Biblical Eschatology).

The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. A sign of the end is the preaching of the Gospel message in the whole world.

Jesus makes clear (and unambiguously) in Matthew 24:14: “this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end (or telos) come.”

This couldn’t be clearer! Now is man's only hope of salvation. The whole wider redemptive history of mankind is encompassed between Adam and the second coming of the second Adam. The period that we are currently in today is the day of grace (the day of salvation). Jesus is not coming again as Savior but as Judge. Premils and Preterists do not believe that “the end” refers to the end. The phrase “the end” here refers to the conclusion or the completion.

2 Peter 3:3-13 shows the following happening at “His coming” (parousia):

1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

No one could surely deny the climatic detail that attends the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 3:14-15 then concludes: “Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation.”

Many Bible students seem to miss the fact that there is a termination point to the offer of salvation. 2 Peter 3:3-15 confirms that that will happen on the day of Christ’s return. Men must therefore be saved before the end or they will be destroyed. This fits tidily with Christ’s likening of this impending fiery day with Noah and Lot’s judgments. Scripture limits the offer of “salvation” to this side of the second coming. Once that great merciful ingathering has been completed God will then call time on this arrangement and call time on the wicked. His plan of salvation will then over.

Phillip Mauro puts it well in his book The Hope of Israel: “Manifestly, if this present day of salvation were to be followed by a day of glory, peace and prosperity for the earth, a day in which the entire Jewish nation and other nations as well, are to be saved, there would be no long suffering and mercy in prolonging the Saviour's absence; but just the reverse. The apostle's reason for the delay is valid only if the return of the Lord is to usher in the day of judgment, and if it coincides with ‘the coming of the day of God’.”

According to the repeated teaching of the New Testament, salvation is strictly limited to this Gospel period. We must recognize (as in Noah’s day), the longsuffering of God mentioned is carefully linked to the continued salvation of souls; the termination of God’s longsuffering sees the termination of the Gospel opportunity and consequently the salvation of souls. This occurs at the moment Christ unexpectedly comes to rescue His saints and destroys this present world along with the wicked. Christ’s Advent in glory is constantly depicted as the termination point for the wicked and their evil schemes. Speaking to the wicked, we learn, it is “after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” It is only the repentant soul that escapes the fiery destruction that falls at the end. The rest – those that possess an impenitent heart – are destroyed. This again demolishes another Premillennial theory, that of numerous and widespread salvation throughout the whole period of a supposed post-Second coming millennium.



Because there is nowhere in Rev 20 that teaches that the millennium will be a perfect pristine paradise of peace and harmony. That is an invention of your yours that you add unto the sacred text. Please show it there if I am wrong.

Usual mantra inn scholar-speak. Nothing new here.

Some people just like hearing themselves talk, and seeing what they write. It's the habit of pseudo-scholars.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

The last great beast will be given a big mouth. He'll no doubt be a very great scholar. He'll also be fulfilling prophecy of the Symbol Man's Bible, and make fire come down from heaven.

 

[WPM]

The earth will be populated greater than ever before under the rule and law of the King, without war nor trespassers going unpunished through corrupt laws, judges and politicians.

There will be plenty of people only obeying the law outwardly, and will be found out set free to do evil, only after Satan is loosed.

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Please show what you are promoting in Revelation 20 - the earth's population "under the rule and law of the King, without war nor trespassers going unpunished through corrupt laws, judges and politicians." It seems like you are winging it.

 

[WPM]

This kind of mocking of Scripture and the King's power on earth, is obvious.



Scholar speak does not make anything true. This is putting forth prophesy of Scripture in a lying manner, in order to reject what is written.

Nothing done in the thousand years, is undone when the thousand years expires. The harvest of souls to Christ will still be resurrected with the rest of the dead, and be found in the Lamb's book of Life.

What we see here is not just unbelief in the Lord's Millennium, but openly lying about what Scripture says of it, and mocking it. I believe the reason is, because some Christians have the same wrong spirit of the Jews, who want a Messiah to come to earth and destroy all people, that are not like themselves.

But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

Your scenario is never going to happen. You cannot even show Jesus on earth in Revelation 20. That is because He is not there! It is talking about the intra-Advent period. It is talking about the heavenly reign of the redeemed.

You are also living in denial. You duck around Satan's little season as if it is not in Revelation 20. Well, it is there. It cuts across your perfect wholesale submission to Christ. It cuts across your perfect pristine Edenic environment. This is an illusion. Your millennium is saturated with billions of phonies who reveal their hand when Satan appears. He overruns your millennium with his followers - as the sand of the sea.

 

[WPM]

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Which is after the thousand years are expired, and Gog and Magog are devoured from off the earth.

2 Peter 3 will be fulfilled at some time afterward, whether before or during or after this world flees from the face of God.

It will at least be before the new heaven and earth is created, and the old world is passed away.

The end of "this age" is when Jesus comes not the end of a future thousand years. Check out the Book.

Usual mantra inn scholar-speak. Nothing new here.

Some people just like hearing themselves talk, and seeing what they write. It's the habit of pseudo-scholars.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

You are obviously an embittered, frustrated and angry person. You cannot deal with the biblical arguments, so you resort to vicious ad hominem. When you cannot attack the message, you attack the messenger. You are describing yourself.

You are obviously embittered, frustrated and angry person. You cannot deal with the biblical arguments, so you resort to vicious ad hominem. When one cannot attack the message, they attack the messenger. This is a sign of ultimate defeat.

You are describing yourself.

 

[WPM]

You not only twist Scripture to accuse the Lord of being weaker than Satan, but you are also ignore and twist the points of others, to make false accusation against them as well.

The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

I knew you would duck around the NT prohibitions for the reintroduction of future imaginary blood sacrifices after the second coming. You can't even tell us what covenant this belongs to. You have been ducking this for several posts. I will repeat:

Is the reintroduction of future blood sacrifices after the second coming under the old covenant, the new covenant or a new old covenant?

As Jesus was dying, He cried: “It is finished” (John 19:30). At Calvary, Jesus finished transgression by becoming sin for us. The penalty for sin was fully and finally paid. No future sacrifice can ever be presented for sin; it was completely and perfectly finished at Calvary. God was completely satisfied with this spotless once all-sufficient sacrifice of His own dear Son and thus immediately and eternally rent the veil of the temple in twain. Calvary therefore finished the imperfect sacrifices. It denoted the end of old covenant offerings. It denoted the one single acceptable sacrifice for sin had been offered. The bridge between God and man had been firmly and finally completed. There are no more covenants to come, no more sacrifices to come, no more atonements or high priests. The work is finished. In God's economy Calvary finished all sin-offerings, sacrifices and ordinances. It was a finished work. For those who object to this, what do they believe Christ finished at Calvary?

Is Calvary not enough?

Is Calvary not an eternal (unending) sacrifice?

Is Calvary not an eternal (unending) covering?

Is Calvary not an eternal (unending) doorway into the presence of God?

Mark 15:37 records, “Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.”

In doing this, the temple was rendered redundant and obsolete. It no longer carried any meaningful spiritual purpose. AD 70 destruction was simply an outward evidence of what Christ secured in the midst of the final week – at the cross. It was not that AD 70 marked the end of the sin offerings (it didn't), Calvary perfectly did that. It was rather that AD 70 was tangible proof that the physical temple had been rendered irrelevant by the cross. It had no more earthly use in the plan of God. A greater temple, sacrifice, high priest had eternally superseded the shadow, type and figure.

Of course, Premils enjoys no New Testament support for their theology. But this does not stop him trying their best to foist these useless, pointless, worthless sin offerings upon Christ and the glorified saints and billions of mortals that will later rebel on Christ en-masse at the end of an alleged future millennium. How Christ must grieve over the espousal of such a doctrine when He ably finishing the work for sin 2,000 years ago.

Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It makes clear: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” Hebrews 10:2 confirms they “ceased to be offered?

You need to see that they related to before the cross. God brought them back for their Messiah as promised 2000. They rejected Him. He cursed their fig tree. He scattered them throughout the nation. He abolished their defunct religious system. He destroyed their temple. He removed the kingdom from them. It is already fulfilled. We are now in the new covenant. It is built upon better, broader and brighter foundations.

 

[robert derrick]

Sorry for butting in, but I want to acknowledge some good points you, that I had not seen before.

Then again you totally ignore Peter in 2 Peter 3:8 when he says don't be ignorant and ignore the Day of the Lord.

Very good. What is purposely overlooked, is this Scripture that points to the day of the Lord, as possibly including a thousand years, even as waiting for that day can be for today, or for a thousand years if necessary.

The day of the Lord prophesied was normally seen as a single day, so that the disciples stood around waiting for the Lord to return that day, after ascending in a cloud. The apostles also looked for it in their day, and then finally the Lord had Peter revealed that day could be a thousand years away.

Rev 20 simply confirms six times, that day of the Lord itself is a thousand year period.

The tactic of trying to force believers in Christ's Millennium, to only use Rev 20 is obvious nonsense. Rev 20 is the concluding prophesy of certain details of the Millennium, not the only source for it.

It proves the day of the Lord is not a 24 hour period on earth.

Peter defines the Day with the Lord is 1,000 years. You agree the last 1992 years has been the last days, plural, 2 of them. Then you reverse that ignoring Peter, Paul, and Scripture there will be that final day of the Lord.

Exactly. The same people going hog wild to symbolize and spiritualize any prophesy of Scripture they want, and strip it of normal meaning of earthly events, then turn and refuse to consider the day of the Lord is anything but a 24 hour period.

And being with the Lord on earth is the whole purpose of a Second Coming.

Exactly. All the prophecies of the Lord coming, is to come to earth, and to judge and rule over all men on earth.

Paul did not say the second coming was the end. Paul said at the Second Coming, and then comes the end.

Exactly again. We always know a teacher of Scripture, vs a false teacher that is sloppy with Scripture at best, and purposely reshapes it at worst.

3 times Jesus presents to God those who have been redeemed from the earth. The OT was a large group. The NT was an even larger group. The Day of the Lord will be the largest group yet.

Halleluiah. The greatest harvest of souls ever on earth.

Why would you assume those on earth do not move on into the new earth and keep on living?

Are you speaking of natural people not yet dead?

John was on the NE watching the New Jerusalem descend along with all the others who had lived on the earth, no? The kingdoms surrounded the New Jerusalem did not just magically, instantly appear. They had been around for the last 1,000 years. You claim all are dead. Then magically there are fully populated kingdoms, in an instant.

Now this is perfect. Along with others, I have completely overlooked the whole matter of how the new earth is populated with natural people. There will be saved nations entering new Jerusalem, as well as trespassers being forbidden entrance and access to the healing leaves.

You have to insert your opinion into Revelation 20 through 22. You claim the whole earth rebels at the end. That is no where stated nor implied in those chapters. Nor does it say all on earth are consumed by fire any where in Scripture.

True. At His coming again, they are from among the nations, and Gog and Magog are from the four corners. We know it is not all people, especially since the saved saints are in beloved city and the camp of the saints.

And the fire of God only devours Gog and Magog around the city and camp, and certainly not the whole earth.

In the end, we see plainly that symbolizers are not serious about the Bible, but it is only a plaything for them to act like scholars with.

It's just another book for them to play around with.

 

[robert derrick]

Please show what you are promoting in Revelation 20 - the earth's population "under the rule and law of the King, without war nor trespassers going unpunished through corrupt laws, judges and politicians." It seems like you are winging it.

ALready done that. With some people I repeat myself once or twice, but not with people who have no interest in even acknowledging the points of others.

If you want the Scriptures and reasoning, go back and read it.

 

[WPM]

ALready answered.


You don't address any point anyone else makes, but only talks over with your repeated mantra.



Case in point.


I understand symbolic teaching of the Symbol Man's Bible, and reject all of it.


You're the only ducking duck here.

I'm pretty much done with you. Unless you come up with something new to address, or show how any points I make is not reasonably made, then there's no need to keep wasting my time with you.

The posts from Amils are thorough, direct and compelling. Your MO is avoidance. You cannot address the multiple contradiction in your position. When you are cornered you run. The reader can check out who is avoiding or not. That is your pattern. You cannot admit your error.

I will highlight the elephant in the Premil room that they cannot explain:

Do you believe your millennial earth will flee away after Satan's little season?

Then, any mortals and any glorified saints will have to be raptured and resurrected to be taken to a brand new earth.

 

[WPM]

ALready done that. With some people I repeat myself once or twice, but not with people who have no interest in even acknowledging the points of others.

If you want the Scriptures and reasoning, go back and read it.

LOL. By your avoidance, you are pushing lurkers into the camp of Amil. For that I appreciate. You have zero Scripture to support Premil or any of its tenets. You force so much private opinion into Revelation 20 that does not exist. You avoid like no one else on this board.

Please show what you are promoting in Revelation 20 - the earth's population "under the rule and law of the King, without war nor trespassers going unpunished through corrupt laws, judges and politicians."

The reality is: there is no such thing in Revelation 20. It is a figment of your imagination.

 

[robert derrick]

Your scenario is never going to happen. You cannot even show Jesus on earth in Revelation 20. That is because He is not there!

It is in all prophecies of His coming to earth. It includes ruling over all nations on earth. Rev 20 is the final details of it prophesied.

It is talking about the intra-Advent period. It is talking about the heavenly reign of the redeemed.

There is no heavenly reign of any other than God and the Lamb.

This is the false doctrine of soul-separation, where people claim to have already recieved their resurrected bodies in heavenly places, while their mortal bodies go on haplessly still sinning. So they are reigning with Christ in heaven, as though they now have charge over angels.

The resurrected saints will reign on this earth only, and then will dwell with God in New Jerusalem.

You are also living in denial. You duck around Satan's little season as if it is not in Revelation 20.

Now, you're not making in sense.

Well, it is there. It cuts across your perfect wholesale submission to Christ. It cuts across your perfect pristine Edenic environment.

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts.

This is an illusion. Your millennium is saturated with billions of phonies who reveal their hand when Satan appears. He overruns your millennium with his followers - as the sand of the sea.

How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

 

[robert derrick]

LOL. By your avoidance, you are pushing lurkers into the camp of Amil. For that I appreciate.

And here we are. Let someone talk long enough, and it all comes out.

There is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

I see now the reason for militant zeal, and willingness to mock the Lord's Millennium, as well as promote Satan over Him, when the thousand years expire.

Proselytizers. Trying to convert people into their very own little camp of 'amils'. That makes perfect sense now.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

They don't care one bit about whether there is a Millennium of Christ in Scripture or not, which is why they care nothing about destroying prophecy of Scripture to reject it.

They only care about getting other Christians to agree with them. It's nothing more than their own little pride-trip, while getting to display all their pseudo-science in scholar-speak.

That's all this forum is about for them. Someone said they are all over other sites as well for years, with the same pompous attitude. They are proselytizers. Nothing more.

It's like the JW's that care nothing for their created christ, but only use him as a foil to teach the natural theology of heaven or oblivion.

And we add in the delusion that they think they are already in, or headed for some heavenly reign of their own, so that their 'majesty' is insulted by disagreement.

It's also why they have no problem in having billions destroyed at The Lamb's coming again, because people refuse to be like them, nor are they worth any their 'heavenly' time to be on earth for.

Everyone not like them, nor agreeing with them, whether sinner or saint, are beneath their 'celestial dignity'.

What a joke.

 

[robert derrick]

I knew you would duck around the NT prohibitions for the reintroduction of future imaginary blood sacrifices after the second coming. You can't even tell us what covenant this belongs to. You have been ducking this for several posts. I will repeat:

Is this practiced under the old covenant, the new covenant or a new old covenant?

As Jesus was dying, He cried: “It is finished” (John 19:30). At Calvary, Jesus finished transgression by becoming sin for us. The penalty for sin was fully and finally paid. No future sacrifice can ever be presented for sin; it was completely and perfectly finished at Calvary. God was completely satisfied with this spotless once all-sufficient sacrifice of His own dear Son and thus immediately and eternally rent the veil of the temple in twain. Calvary therefore finished the imperfect sacrifices. It denoted the end of old covenant offerings. It denoted the one single acceptable sacrifice for sin had been offered. The bridge between God and man had been firmly and finally completed. There are no more covenants to come, no more sacrifices to come, no more atonements or high priests. The work is finished. In God's economy Calvary finished all sin-offerings, sacrifices and ordinances. It was a finished work. For those who object to this, what do they believe Christ finished at Calvary?

Is Calvary not enough?

Is Calvary not an eternal (unending) sacrifice?

Is Calvary not an eternal (unending) covering?

Is Calvary not an eternal (unending) doorway into the presence of God?

Mark 15:37 records, “Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.”

In doing this, the temple was rendered redundant and obsolete. It no longer carried any meaningful spiritual purpose. AD 70 destruction was simply an outward evidence of what Christ secured in the midst of the final week – at the cross. It was not that AD 70 marked the end of the sin offerings (it didn't), Calvary perfectly did that. It was rather that AD 70 was tangible proof that the physical temple had been rendered irrelevant by the cross. It had no more earthly use in the plan of God. A greater temple, sacrifice, high priest had eternally superseded the shadow, type and figure.

Of course, Premils enjoys no New Testament support for their theology. But this does not stop him trying their best to foist these useless, pointless, worthless sin offerings upon Christ and the glorified saints and billions of mortals that will later rebel on Christ en-masse at the end of an alleged future millennium. How Christ must grieve over the espousal of such a doctrine when He ably finishing the work for sin 2,000 years ago.

Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It makes clear: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” Hebrews 10:2 confirms they “ceased to be offered?

You need to see that they related to before the cross. God brought them back for their Messiah as promised 2000. They rejected Him. He cursed their fig tree. He scattered them throughout the nation. He abolished their defunct religious system. He destroyed their temple. He removed the kingdom from them. It is already fulfilled. We are now in the new covenant. It is built upon better, broader and brighter foundations.

Nothing new here.

 

[robert derrick]

The posts from Amils are thorough, direct and compelling. Your MO is avoidance. You cannot address the multiple contradiction in your position. When you are cornered you run. The reader can check out who is avoiding or not. That is your pattern. You cannot admit your error.

I will highlight the elephant in the Premil room that they cannot explain:

Do you believe your millennial earth will flee away after Satan's little season?

Then, any mortals and any glorified saints will have to be raptured and resurrected to be taken to a brand new earth.

ALready answered long ago.

 

[WPM]

It's called His heavenly kingdom and eternal salvation, which is spiritual in heaven, and is not His rule on this earth.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

Mixing earthly and heavenly things, is the natural theology of JW's.




This earth does not have a soul to be born again.

Nothing naturally created by God is perfect, whether the earth, stars, grass, and flesh of men and beasts.

On the new earth, there will be those forbidden entrance to the New Jerusalem and access to the healing leaves, except they repent.

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

If not, they will die off, and no more be among the saved nations.

The prophesy of a future born again utopian planet is false.

You do not even believe that the earth is cursed since the Fall. It seems like you have a mega issue with what is in the Word.

No. Ground can be cursed by God for sinful man's sake, but it is not cursed itself,

I never heard anything so ridiculous in my life. The link between the creature and creation is unquestionable. When man fell then all creation experienced the consequences and fell with him. Genesis 3:17-19 confirms this, when God tells Adam, “Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee.”

To take the phrase “for your sake” from the Hebrew word ‛âbûr meaning “because of you” or “on your account,” showing us the reason by corruption took a hold of this earth. The fate of man and creation are therefore carefully joined together. Equally, when man is finally glorified at Christ’s coming, being immediately and eternally freed from the “bondage of corruption” then all creation similarly parallels him. It is then that He will destroy this swiftly decaying arrangement and replace it with a new economy.

We believe that both the wicked (in total) and the righteous (in total) are raised and judged at the second coming and that each receives their eternal destiny at that time. The ark door is finally closed. At His coming, Christ finally and eternally destroys the curse by removing every semblance of the bondage of corruption from creation. The fiery conflagration regenerates this earth and restores it to it pristine pre-fall state. It is cleansed of every impurity and renewed to a glorified state. This current earth will experience the same deliverance from the curse that the elect do upon His return. The earth will be changed in a similar way that our corrupt mortal bodies will. This corruptible earth will indeed put on incorruption.

Romans 8:16-23 declares, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption [Gr. phthartos or decay] into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will be finally delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.”

Scripture makes it abundantly clear there will be an end to the current fallen state. There will be a day of complete deliverance.

At this juncture we must briefly enquire, what is this “bondage of corruption” spoken of in this passage that will one day be removed? It is the awful curse that came upon all mankind as a result of Adam’s fall in the Garden of Eden. This curse embodies every effect of the fall that afflicts man, including sin, death, and every form of decay.

It must also be noted, that the reference relating to those who desire deliverance from the present condition of “the bondage of corruption” is not restricted to the redeemed of God alone (those who “have the firstfruits of the Spirit”). The hope is more comprehensive. This passage tells us that the whole of creation is yearning for this monumental change. This only goes to show that all creation doesn’t simply experience the reality and awful cost of the fall, but that it yearns for relief from its corrosive clutches through its continuation.

When, then, will this perpetual groaning and travailing of all “creation” in pain, for the expressed reason of the continued existence of the awful “bondage of corruption” within “the creature,” actually be finally assuaged?

This approaching change occurs at the one final future coming of Christ – the day of redemption. It is only then that the “sons of God” are finally glorified, and therefore totally and eternally delivered from this continuing “bondage of corruption” into the “glorious liberty of the children of God.” Then, all redeemed creation will be transformed from corruption to incorruption. The time of the “redemption of our body” is the time that sees creation finally and eternally delivered from bondage. This is glorification. This is shown in the whole thrust and context of the introductory verses to this reference, where Paul was talking about man’s great deliverance. He is talking about the saints being “glorified” (v 17) at His return and describing it as “the glory which shall be revealed in us” (v 18).

This reading clearly locates the anticipated glorification feat to the day of redemption when Christ rescues His elect from this sin-cursed world. It is this concluding event that finally witnesses the entire elect of God of all time secure the last aspect of the redemptive process – the “redemption” of their bodies. It is this last day that sees the glorious “manifestation of the sons of God” (v 19) or “the glorious liberty of the children of God” (v 21). This event also sees to removal of everything that is in rebellion to God or does not belong to God.

 

[WPM]

ALready answered long ago.

You know you haven't. If you are telling the truth, give us the post.

 

[WPM]

Nothing new here.

It exposes your inventions and destroys Premil. You have no answer to the truth.

 

[WPM]

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Which is after the thousand years are expired, and Gog and Magog are devoured from off the earth.

Gog and Magog mobilize in their billions from throughout the world and overrun your supposed future millennium at the end.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Gog and Magog mobilize in their billions from throughout the world and overrun your supposed future millennium at the end.

Yes they do, but the Gog and Magog of REvelation are not the same as in Ezekiel 37-39. Scripture shows that simply, clearly, and absolutely!

 

[WPM]

Yes they do, but the Gog and Magog of REvelation are not the same as in Ezekiel 37-39. Scripture shows that simply, clearly, and absolutely!

In your opinion.

 

[Keraz]

In your opinion.

Thinking the attack by Gog in Ezekiel 38 to 39, is the same as in Revelation 20:7-10, displays a serious lack of understanding and even an inability to properly read what is Written.
Gog/Magog is used in the final showdown, as an example of a huge, uncountable army, from all around the world.
Plainly not the same as described in Ezekiel, they come from the far reaches of the North.