A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.

[RLT63]

It’s your choice to believe as you wish.....but the Bible itself teaches us not to underestimate our enemy.

If the “weeds” of Jesus parable were manifesting in the first century, and the apostles were acting as a restraint against a foretold apostasy back then, we today have been sold a very ancient ‘bill of goods’. We are the victims of that apostasy. Everything we have been taught from the religious system that became thoroughly corrupted in the early centuries, are lies that are widely accepted as truth.

Here are our study notes on 2 Thessalonians.....
Study Notes

Only in this “time of the end” was God going to “cleanse, purify and refine” a people and give them insight and understanding regarding the real truth. (Daniel 12:4, 13-14) But they would be rejected by the majority because of deviating from what was accepted as scriptural truth.....their truth would be ridiculed as lies.

Think back to the first century and ask why the people rejected Jesus and persecuted his disciples....they claimed to worship the same God, but because Jesus did not conform to their version of things, he was automatically accused of subverting the nation. But what did Jesus say about them....?

“You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”

History is repeating......the majority are again misled as to what is truth......but they won’t believe it for all the same reasons.

Step back and see what God is seeing.

Well if you’re right the worst I have to worry about is dying and ceasing to exist. You are entitled to your beliefs as well and you’re a capable representative of JWs views

 

[WalterandDebbie]

What are your thoughts...?

Walter, I went to Strongs, as I always do, to check the translation and how the original word was used in other verses. This is always very revealing to me because bias will often override the true meaning of a word or words, and a mistranslation will be accepted as truth, when it never was. If that happened before we were born and we were indoctrinated from birth....the lies will appear to be truth....the deceiver will have accomplished his agenda.

“I am” can be translated as “I was” or “have been”. If you read the account, when asked a question about his age, Jesus responded that he was in existence before Abraham was even born.

Jesus’ answer to the Jews was that, because he came down from heaven, he existed there with his Father and therefore could respond that he was in existence before Abraham was born. He wasn’t admitting to being God because “I Am” in Hebrew, was never the meaning of God’s name in the first place.

This was just before Moses was sent to liberate the Israelites from slavery in Egypt. God’s promise to Abraham, was that a particular person in his lineage would be the one to bring blessings to all mankind, not just to the Hebrews.
In Exodus 3:9-10, 13 Jehovah said to Moses....
“Now look! The outcry of the people of Israel has reached me, and I have seen also the harsh way that the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 Now come, I will send you to Pharʹaoh, and you will bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt.”.......”But Moses said to the true God: “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What should I say to them?”

As Abraham’s offspring, these people already knew who their God was, as they always kept themselves separate from the Egyptians ever since Joseph rescued his family from a raging famine. Joseph was the son of Jacob who was sold into slavery by his jealous brothers, but he realised later that God had sent him ahead to preserve his family. Jacob, who was renamed “Israel” and his family were worshippers of Jehovah, and his descendants were the ones through whom the promised seed would come.

When Pharaoh refused to set Israel free, God brought the 10 plagues to show Pharaoh who the true God was....each plague was designed to humiliate one of Egypt’s many gods....the last “god” to feel that humiliation was Pharaoh himself who was also considered a god.

So Jehovah (Yahweh) was showing his people what his name meant.....not just that he was (or is) but what he would “be” or “become” in order to achieve his purpose in connection with them. Bible history tells us how difficult that was....keeping his people separate from the surrounding nations....forbidding certain practices that were common in other nations...even in their diet, Israel stood out as different to all the rest.
They were the only ones to be governed by the true God, and to be accountable for keeping his laws, by birth. Yet to Abraham, God said that “all the nations” would receive the blessings that his seed would bring about. So Israel had a role in God’s purpose, but they were constantly disobeying God’s commands. When the Messiah finally arrived, Jehovah gave his people first option to become participants or parties to the “new covenant” that was prophesied through Jeremiah. (Jeremiah 32:31-33) But after the corrupt religious leaders had him executed, God abandoned them as the serial covenant breakers they had always proven to be....”the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) would replace them......a new spiritual “Israel” who would be faithful to their God in all things.

As I have said many times, the Bible is one story, with one author, so humans who mess with its message, by deliberately mistranslating its words, (especially about who God is, and what role his son plays in the outworking of his purpose) will answer for the number of lost lives that their lies will cause. People are basically lazy, so they will accept what is told to them, without doing their own homework. It’s vital that we do.

The “weeds” of Jesus’ parable are counterfeit “Christians” planted by the devil......but the “wheat” are still in existence, growing in the world......but they are a hated minority. (Matt 7:13-14; John 15:18-21)

What are your thoughts...?

Hi Jane, Thank you, My thoughts are, This is a bit off the topic/OP but very interesting.

Verse Thoughts Of John 8:58 I am

One of the fundamentals of our faith is that the Lord Jesus Christ is fully God in every way and fully equal with the Father. Many people consider that Jesus never claimed to be God or professed equality with the Father, and yet when the Lord Jesus declared, "Before Abraham was, I AM," He was making the most blatant and incontrovertible declaration of His Deity, claiming equal status with YHWH of the Old Testament, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel.

Christ claimed Deity on many occasions, infuriating the Jewish leaders. The accusation of blasphemy made by the Jews, where they took up stones to execute Him, was because they refused believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as Son of God, begotten not created, and of one being with the Father. They refused to believe that Jesus was the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.

When Jesus declared, "Before Abraham was, I AM," (which in the Greek language is EGO EIMI), His claim was not only pre-existence to the greatest prophet and patriarch of the Jews and father of the Jewish nation, but ALSO He was claiming to be nothing less that the great God of the universe. Jesus was claiming to be the 'I AM' of the Scriptures Who led the children of Israel out of the bondage of Egypt and Who spoke with Moses in the burning bush, declaring, "I AM that I AM."

Never let us forget Who it was that gave up His sovereign, universal throne to come to earth, to die on the Cross as the perfect sacrifice for sin so that ALL that believe on the name of the only begotten Son of God, might not perish but have everlasting life. As Jesus Himself tells us: "I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last." And the final 'I AM' statement in the Bible reminds us: "Surely I AM coming quickly."

"Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!"

My Prayer
Loving Father, I stand amazed in Your presence knowing that Jesus, my Saviour and Lord, came from His sovereign position on the eternal throne of Deity, to die for me. Truly, the Lord Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God, Who was, and is, and is to come. I worship You, my Lord, AMEN.

Love, Walter and Debbie

 

[Aunty Jane]

Well if you’re right the worst I have to worry about is dying and ceasing to exist.

Yes, that is the worst that can happen...the gift of life is given and if its not lived in accord with the Creator's instructions, it will be taken away. Not complicated at all really.
Why would God need to keep the wicked alive only to torture them for all eternity? That is not the God Jesus showed us.

You are entitled to your beliefs as well and you’re a capable representative of JWs views

These are the Bible's views....JW's just happen to teach them....which is why I chose to become one of them.
The truth is more important to me that conforming to false teachings that are held by the masses.
Jesus proved that God is not interested in what the majority think.....he wants quality, not quantity.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Why would God need to keep the wicked alive only to torture them for all eternity?

The Bible says that torments will continue in the lake of fire forever and ever.

“…cast into the lake of fire and brimstone… and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)

The scripture would have said something like “shall be destroyed from existence forever” or something like this if you were correct.

And if you’re not going there anyway why are you trying to lessen the punishment?

 

[WalterandDebbie]

My conclusions about many things, are the very reason why I will not ever go back to Christendom and its many man-made doctrines and mistranslations, masquerading as truth.
I have articulated them, and there is no need to rehash. Once one has heard the truth and rejected it, my work is done, unless the readers here may need an additional bit of information in order to make their choices about what, or who to believe.
Its called informed choice. We all need both sides of any story to decide for ourselves what is true.

I am assuming that this is copied and pasted, because it touches on all the issues that I have already addressed and exposed as untrue.
Bible study is a passion of mine and what I read in the Bible has to fit in with everything else it teaches, because it is God's word and he does not contradict himself.

When I studied Christendom's doctrines, I found that I could trace them all back to original Babylon....that ancient place where rebellion reared its ugly head again after the flood, with Noah's great grandson, Nimrod becoming the first to defy his God.
The central core of Christendom's beliefs are shared by all the various religions in the world....except the one taught in the Bible.

1) For the Jews....God Yahweh was "one" not three. (Deut 6:4) All false worship has multiple gods, often in triads.

View attachment 29674 View attachment 29675 View attachment 29677 View attachment 29676

2) The Jews had no belief in an immortal soul that leaves the body at death, because they believed that life was to be restored in a resurrection at some time in the future on earth......to believe that you go on living in another form, in another place, was far from anything their scriptures taught, but false religion perpetuates the first lie that the devil ever told..."you surely will not die".....you cannot resurrect someone if they are not dead.

What do people imagine they will do in heaven? Why didn't God just put us there in the first place like he did the angels?

3) The Jews also had no belief in a "hell" of eternal torment, but false religion teaches they do.

View attachment 29678 View attachment 29683 View attachment 29684

The highest penalty under God's law in Israel was death.....never was there any torture or inflicted pain over a prolonged period. Never was there punishment for its own sake. There were not even any prisons because offenders were under a perfect law where the death penalty applied for capital crimes, and for crimes such as thievery, a man was sent to work to compensate his victims 4 times more than he stole.


It is my belief that God sent his "firstborn" and "only begotten Son" to become a human, to teach God's word, and to redeem mankind by his death, because that is what the scriptures tell us. (John 3:16; John 17:3)

If Jesus was God incarnate, then as an immortal, he could not die.....if Jesus did not die the same death as Adam, then the ransom was not paid, and we are all still condemned. Jesus bought back for us what Adam threw away...everlasting life in paradise on earth.
Jesus was not an immortal and so he was "sent" to die for us.....he did so willingly. He did not not need to be "God" in order to pay the ransom for mankind....all he needed to be was sinless, and the manner of his conception and birth made sure that he was without original sin.
His faith and integrity did the rest.

Hello Jane, You asked me for my thoughts in post #778 page 39, so I gave it to you, but you did not have to reply as you did in post #783.

Romans 12:17-21

17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[a] says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[b]
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Love, Walter

 

[Wrangler]

Are they the Bible’s views? You don’t seem to have much respect for the Bible, you are always telling us where it’s wrong, the translators were biased

I don't think that is fair. Translators can get it wrong. That doesn't mean any of us lack respect for the Bible.

 

[RLT63]

I don't think that is fair. Translators can get it wrong. That doesn't mean any of us lack respect for the Bible.

Fair enough. I apologize @Aunty Jane . You just don’t agree with the translators in many cases, not that you don’t respect the Bible. @Wrangler you’re good at pointing out when others are not fair but I think @Aunty Jane has you on ignore because of some of your posts. Just saying, maybe take your own advice.

 

[Wrangler]

Fair enough. I apologize @Aunty Jane . You just don’t agree with the translators in many cases, not that you don’t respect the Bible

The definite article "the" implies JW do not agree with all translators or all translations. That's not accurate either. There are certain verses in particular that some - even many - translations get wrong.

I started a rare thread about the original Greek Houtas, which means that - not he. As in John 1:2 that existed in the beginning with God. The significance of such disparities is only when one recognizes the translations subordinate the actual words of the Bible with their doctrine.

That's what all the fuss is about.

Few care is a cubit is translated as foot or meter. But when one studies the words in the original and the translators are more guided by man-made doctrine than actual words of Scripture, there is good reason to object, don't you think?

 

[RLT63]

The definite article "the" implies JW do not agree with all translators or all translations. That's not accurate either. There are certain verses in particular that some - even many - translations get wrong.

I started a rare thread about the original Greek Houtas, which means that - not he. As in John 1:2 that existed in the beginning with God. The significance of such disparities is only when one recognizes the translations subordinate the actual words of the Bible with their doctrine.

That's what all the fuss is about.

Few care is a cubit is translated as foot or meter. But when one studies the words in the original and the translators are more guided by man-made doctrine than actual words of Scripture, there is good reason to object, don't you think?

In cases where the vast majority of translations agree how was there this conspiracy and so many diverse people in agreement to change the word of God? Is it more likely the vast majority have it wrong or the person who disagrees so that their interpretation lines up with their beliefs?

 

[Wrangler]

In cases where the vast majority of translations agree how was there this conspiracy and so many diverse people in agreement to change the word of God? Is it more likely the vast majority have it wrong or the person who disagrees so that their interpretation lines up with their beliefs?

I don't think anyone has claimed conspiracy. It's more like being outside the Matrix and recognizing the effect of indoctrination.

Are you a Star Trek TNG fan? There was an episode were Captain Picard was being tortured by an alien species. The interrogator wanted him to say there were 5 lights even though there were really 4 lights. This was used to break the Captain's will and mind.

He admitted that right before his rescue, when he was asked for the n-th'd time, he really could see 5 lights.

Having said that, I noticed that you made an Appeal to Majority and side-stepped the fact based point that the first word in the second verse of John means "that" in English. I do believe once you recognize one instance of the dynamic discussed, your mind comes out of the Matrix and you begin to see the bigger picture.

A classic example is 1984 by George Orwell. They kept changing things and kept telling the people things has not changed but always were the way they are, including who are enemy and allies are. Amazing.

 

[RLT63]

I don't think anyone has claimed conspiracy. It's more like being outside the Matrix and recognizing the effect of indoctrination.

Are you a Star Trek TNG fan? There was an episode were Captain Picard was being tortured by an alien species. The interrogator wanted him to say there were 5 lights even though there were really 4 lights. This was used to break the Captain's will and mind.

He admitted that right before his rescue, when he was asked for the n-th'd time, he really could see 5 lights.

Having said that, I noticed that you made an Appeal to Majority and side-stepped the fact based point that the first word in the second verse of John means "that" in English. I do believe once you recognize one instance of the dynamic discussed, your mind comes out of the Matrix and you begin to see the bigger picture.

A classic example is 1984 by George Orwell. They kept changing things and kept telling the people things has not changed but always were the way they are, including who are enemy and allies are. Amazing.

You believe that the discovery of older and “better “ manuscripts has led to better translations of the Bible. If that’s the case why do the modern translations say the same thing? People who are dedicated to modern textual criticism and claim to have the translations that are closest to the original would have to be in on this deception as well. Even Westcott and Hort would have to be in on it. That doesn’t seem likely.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The Bible says that torments will continue in the lake of fire forever and ever.

“…cast into the lake of fire and brimstone… and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)

First of all we need to identify the "lake of fire" and what it means for those who are put in there.
Fire is used in the Bible as a symbol of complete destruction....hence when Jesus made reference to "gehenna" he was referring to Jerusalem's garbage dump where the fires were kept burning day and night to consume the rubbish....brimstone was used to keep the fires from going out.
According to Smith’s Dictionary of the Bible, Volume 1, explains: “It became the common lay-stall [garbage dump] of the city, where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals, and every other kind of filth was cast.”
Nothing alive was cast there.

His Jewish audience understood what Jesus meant when he told the wicked religious leaders: “Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are you to flee from the judgment of Gehenna?” (Matthew 23:33) Since the Hebrew scriptures never mentioned life after death, the Jews had no belief in an immortal soul that would go anywhere after death, except their graves. (Eccl 9:5, 10) It was from these graves that Jesus would call all of the dead, in the general resurrection. (John 5:28-29) Those of the elect would be resurrected to heaven "first". (Rev 20:6)

So what is the "torment" that it speaks of?
When Jesus was on earth jailers were at times called “tormentors.” As Jesus said of a certain man in one of his illustrations: “And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.” (Matt 18:34 King James Version) Since those who are thrown into “the lake of fire” go into “second death” from which there is no resurrection, they are, so to speak, imprisoned forever in death. They remain in death as though in the custody of jailers for all eternity.

The wicked are not literally tormented because, as Eccl 9:5 says, when a person is dead he is not conscious of anything.

The scripture would have said something like “shall be destroyed from existence forever” or something like this if you were correct.

And if you’re not going there anyway why are you trying to lessen the punishment?

Jesus actually did say something like that in a scripture so well known in Christendom but they fail to recognize what he said and read right over it....
John 3:16....
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
What is the contrast there between those who believe that Jesus is the son of God and those who don't?
"Eternal life" is contrasted with 'perishing' (apollymi)...which according to Strongs, means....

"ἀπόλλυμι apóllymi, ap-ol'-loo-mee; from G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:—destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
2. render useless
3. to kill
4. to declare that one must be put to death"

Since death is the opposite of life, when a "soul" dies, (Ezekiel 18:4) they cease to exist.....except in God's infinite memory.
A soul is not something that lives inside you that can be separated from your body.....you are a soul as long as you breathe. When breathing stops, the soul that is you, dies...just like Adam was told in Eden.....
"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Gen 3:19)
If Adam had an immortal soul, wouldn't God have warned him about "hell"? Who deserved to go there more than he did? He was responsible for the death and suffering of the whole human race! Yet a "return to the dust" was his only penalty. He will never see life again because there was no excuse for what he did. There was no basis to forgive him and he knew it. There is not a single word said in remorse for his sin. The first righteous man mentioned in the Bible is his second son, Abel.

There is no mention of an "immortal soul" anywhere in the Bible.

This is simply another lie created to appear to be truth....none of us want to die, but we all know that it is inevitable....what better way to suggest that we don't really die, but go on living somewhere else in another form.....? Isn't that what satan said to Eve? The very first lie that the devil told was that "you surely will not die"....the idea of an immortal soul serves the devil, not Jehovah.

 

[RLT63]

First of all we need to identify the "lake of fire" and what it means for those who are put in there.
Fire is used in the Bible as a symbol of complete destruction....hence when Jesus made reference to "gehenna" he was referring to Jerusalem's garbage dump where the fires were kept burning day and night to consume the rubbish....brimstone was used to keep the fires from going out.
According to Smith’s Dictionary of the Bible, Volume 1, explains: “It became the common lay-stall [garbage dump] of the city, where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals, and every other kind of filth was cast.”
Nothing alive was cast there.

His Jewish audience understood what Jesus meant when he told the wicked religious leaders: “Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are you to flee from the judgment of Gehenna?” (Matthew 23:33) Since the Hebrew scriptures never mentioned life after death, the Jews had no belief in an immortal soul that would go anywhere after death, except their graves. (Eccl 9:5, 10) It was from these graves that Jesus would call all of the dead, in the general resurrection. (John 5:28-29) Those of the elect would be resurrected to heaven "first". (Rev 20:6)

So what is the "torment" that it speaks of?
When Jesus was on earth jailers were at times called “tormentors.” As Jesus said of a certain man in one of his illustrations: “And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.” (Matt 18:34 King James Version) Since those who are thrown into “the lake of fire” go into “second death” from which there is no resurrection, they are, so to speak, imprisoned forever in death. They remain in death as though in the custody of jailers for all eternity.

The wicked are not literally tormented because, as Eccl 9:5 says, when a person is dead he is not conscious of anything.

Jesus actually did say something like that in a scripture so well known in Christendom but they fail to recognize what he said and read right over it....
John 3:16....
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
What is the contrast there between those who believe that Jesus is the son of God and those who don't?
"Eternal life" is contrasted with 'perishing' (apollymi)...which according to Strongs, means....

"ἀπόλλυμι apóllymi, ap-ol'-loo-mee; from G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:—destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
2. render useless
3. to kill
4. to declare that one must be put to death"

Since death is the opposite of life, when a "soul" dies, (Ezekiel 18:4) they cease to exist.....except in God's infinite memory.
A soul is not something that lives inside you that can be separated from your body.....you are a soul as long as you breathe. When breathing stops, the soul that is you, dies...just like Adam was told in Eden.....
"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Gen 3:19)
If Adam had an immortal soul, wouldn't God have warned him about "hell"? Who deserved to go there more than he did? He was responsible for the death and suffering of the whole human race! Yet a "return to the dust" was his only penalty. He will never see life again because there was no excuse for what he did. There was no basis to forgive him and he knew it. There is not a single word said in remorse for his sin. The first righteous man mentioned in the Bible is his second son, Abel.

There is no mention of an "immortal soul" anywhere in the Bible.

This is simply another lie created to appear to be truth....none of us want to die, but we all know that it is inevitable....what better way to suggest that we don't really die, but go on living somewhere else in another form.....? Isn't that what satan said to Eve? The very first lie that the devil told was that "you surely will not die"....the idea of an immortal soul serves the devil, not Jehovah.

Mar 9:43 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mar 9:44 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mar 9:45 - And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mar 9:46 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mar 9:47 - And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Mar 9:48 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

[RLT63]

First of all we need to identify the "lake of fire" and what it means for those who are put in there.
Fire is used in the Bible as a symbol of complete destruction....hence when Jesus made reference to "gehenna" he was referring to Jerusalem's garbage dump where the fires were kept burning day and night to consume the rubbish....brimstone was used to keep the fires from going out.
According to Smith’s Dictionary of the Bible, Volume 1, explains: “It became the common lay-stall [garbage dump] of the city, where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals, and every other kind of filth was cast.”
Nothing alive was cast there.

His Jewish audience understood what Jesus meant when he told the wicked religious leaders: “Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are you to flee from the judgment of Gehenna?” (Matthew 23:33) Since the Hebrew scriptures never mentioned life after death, the Jews had no belief in an immortal soul that would go anywhere after death, except their graves. (Eccl 9:5, 10) It was from these graves that Jesus would call all of the dead, in the general resurrection. (John 5:28-29) Those of the elect would be resurrected to heaven "first". (Rev 20:6)

So what is the "torment" that it speaks of?
When Jesus was on earth jailers were at times called “tormentors.” As Jesus said of a certain man in one of his illustrations: “And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.” (Matt 18:34 King James Version) Since those who are thrown into “the lake of fire” go into “second death” from which there is no resurrection, they are, so to speak, imprisoned forever in death. They remain in death as though in the custody of jailers for all eternity.

The wicked are not literally tormented because, as Eccl 9:5 says, when a person is dead he is not conscious of anything.

Jesus actually did say something like that in a scripture so well known in Christendom but they fail to recognize what he said and read right over it....
John 3:16....
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
What is the contrast there between those who believe that Jesus is the son of God and those who don't?
"Eternal life" is contrasted with 'perishing' (apollymi)...which according to Strongs, means....

"ἀπόλλυμι apóllymi, ap-ol'-loo-mee; from G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:—destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
2. render useless
3. to kill
4. to declare that one must be put to death"

Since death is the opposite of life, when a "soul" dies, (Ezekiel 18:4) they cease to exist.....except in God's infinite memory.
A soul is not something that lives inside you that can be separated from your body.....you are a soul as long as you breathe. When breathing stops, the soul that is you, dies...just like Adam was told in Eden.....
"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Gen 3:19)
If Adam had an immortal soul, wouldn't God have warned him about "hell"? Who deserved to go there more than he did? He was responsible for the death and suffering of the whole human race! Yet a "return to the dust" was his only penalty. He will never see life again because there was no excuse for what he did. There was no basis to forgive him and he knew it. There is not a single word said in remorse for his sin. The first righteous man mentioned in the Bible is his second son, Abel.

There is no mention of an "immortal soul" anywhere in the Bible.

This is simply another lie created to appear to be truth....none of us want to die, but we all know that it is inevitable....what better way to suggest that we don't really die, but go on living somewhere else in another form.....? Isn't that what satan said to Eve? The very first lie that the devil told was that "you surely will not die"....the idea of an immortal soul serves the devil, not Jehovah.

Gehenna | Judgment, Punishment, Hellfire

Gehenna, abode of the damned in the afterlife in Jewish and Christian eschatology (the doctrine of last things). Named in the New Testament in Greek form (from the Hebrew Ge Hinnom, meaning “valley of Hinnom”), Gehenna originally was a valley west and south of Jerusalem where children were burned

www.britannica.com

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Gehenna, also called Gehinnom, abode of the damned in the afterlife in Jewish and Christian eschatology (the doctrine of last things). Named in the New Testament in Greek form (from the Hebrew Ge Hinnom, meaning “valley of Hinnom”), Gehenna originally was a valley west and south of Jerusalemwhere children were burned as sacrifices to the Ammonite god Moloch. This practice was carried out by the Israelites during the reigns of King Solomon in the 10th century BC and King Manasseh in the 7th century BC and continued until the Babylonian Exile in the 6th century BC. Gehenna later was made a garbage centre to discourage a reintroduction of such sacrifices.
God so despised the false god Molechthat He explicitly forbade the Israelites from having anything to do with him in Leviticus 18:21. He even warned them of the impending judgment He would send their way if the Jews didn’t keep their attention and worship directed toward Him. In another prophetic warning, God re-named the Valley of Hinnom as the Valley of Slaughter (Jeremiah 19).

But the Israelites didn’t listen, and evil kings of Judah such as Ahaz used the Valley of Hinnom for their demonic practices (2 Chronicles 28:3). To punish Judah, God brought Babylon against them, and that pagan nation carried out His judgment against Judah’s idolatry and rebellion. It wasn’t until after 70 years of exile that the Jews were allowed back into Israel to rebuild. Upon their return the Valley of Slaughter was re-purposed from a place of infanticide to an ever-burning rubbish heap (2 Kings 23:10). Child sacrifice and other forms of idol-worship ceased in Israel. Gehenna became a place where corpses of criminals, dead animals, and all manners of refuse were thrown to be destroyed.

The Gehenna Valley was thus a place of burning sewage, burning flesh, and garbage. Maggots and worms crawled through the waste, and the smoke smelled strong and sickening (Isaiah 30:33). It was a place utterly filthy, disgusting, and repulsive to the nose and eyes. Gehenna presented such a vivid image that Christ used it as a symbolic depiction of hell: a place of eternal torment and constant uncleanness, where the fires never ceased burning and the worms never stopped crawling (Matthew 10:28; Mark 9:47–48).

Because of Jesus’ symbolic use of Gehenna, the word gehenna is sometimes used as a synonym for hell. In fact, that’s how the Greek word is translated in Mark 9:47: “hell.” The occupants of the lake of fire/gehenna/hell are separated from God for all of eternity.

What is Gehenna? | GotQuestions.org

What is Gehenna? What is the origin of the word Gehenna? How did Gehenna come to be used to refer to hell?

www.gotquestions.org

The imagery of the burning of humans supplied the concept of “hellfire” to Jewish and Christian eschatology. Mentioned several times in the New Testament (e.g., Matthew, Mark, Luke, and James) as a place in which fire will destroy the wicked, it also is noted in the Talmud, a compendium of Jewish law, lore, and commentary, as a place of purification, after which one is released from further torture.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Mar 9:43 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mar 9:44 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mar 9:45 - And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mar 9:46 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mar 9:47 - And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Mar 9:48 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Already explained in post #792.....gehenna was a garbage dump where dead things were cast...nothing alive even went in there.
The flames were kept burning day and night to dispose of the garbage, and what the flames missed, the maggots finished off.....there is no spiritual place like gehenna because there are no souls of wicked humans to go anywhere after death.

If you read what you quoted it says that gehenna is..."a place in which fire will destroy the wicked"...what does "destroy" mean? Look it up.

"it also is noted in the Talmud, a compendium of Jewish law, lore, and commentary, as a place of purification, after which one is released from further torture."
You do understand that the Talmud is the Jewish equivalent of the Catholic Catechism....?...and just as accurate. The Jewish leaders in Jesus' day were bound for "gehenna", (Matt 23:33) so the Talmud is meaningless to anyone but the apostate Jews down to this day. It is men's ideas not scripture. The Jews are as certain about Jesus being a fake Messiah even now, as they always were.....

 

[Michiah-Imla]

The wicked are not literally tormented because, as Eccl 9:5 says, when a person is dead he is not conscious of anything.

Until this day:

“…for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28-29)

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:46)

As for the rest of your loooong post…

That’s lots of s’plainin’ for such a short clear verse.

 

[RLT63]

Already explained in post #792.....gehenna was a garbage dump where dead things were cast...nothing alive even went in there.
The flames were kept burning day and night to dispose of the garbage, and what the flames missed, the maggots finished off.....there is no spiritual place like gehenna because there are no souls of wicked humans to go anywhere after death.

If you read what you quoted it says that gehenna is..."a place in which fire will destroy the wicked"...what does "destroy" mean? Look it up.

"it also is noted in the Talmud, a compendium of Jewish law, lore, and commentary, as a place of purification, after which one is released from further torture."
You do understand that the Talmud is the Jewish equivalent of the Catholic Catechism....?...and just as accurate. The Jewish leaders in Jesus' day were bound for "gehenna", (Matt 23:33) so the Talmud is meaningless to anyone but the apostate Jews down to this day. It is men's ideas not scripture. The Jews are as certain about Jesus being a fake Messiah even now, as they always were.....

I knew you would quote the segment about destruction but I quoted more material from a different source that says otherwise, I don’t care anything about what the Talmud says that was just part of the Brittanica article . Funny you say the same thing about the Jews I said when you were quoting their version of the Old Testament, Your post doesn’t explain the scriptures I quoted you are just ignoring what Jesus said. If a place is so bad you would be better off to mutilate yourself than go there that doesn’t sound like annihilation. I’m not sure what I believe about Hell I recently read Four Views on Hell and have studied other views but I’m not ready to write it off either. ECT is difficult to understand but it is a possibility. I would like for you to be right about this it would be easier to accept but I’m not so sure that you’re right

 

[Aunty Jane]

Until this day:

“…for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28-29)

It says that the dead are in their graves and will come out.....those who have done good (in God's estimations, not their own) will be granted life, (this is the earthly resurrection which happens after the "first resurrection" of the elect. Rev 20:6).......having already proven themselves to be the kind of people God wants as earthly citizens of his kingdom....but those who have "done evil" will be raised to "judgment", not "damnation" which is a word that does not belong in the Bible. There is no "damnation"...there is only the exercise of God's perfect justice. Torture was never part of that.

Those who died in ignorance, perhaps having belonged to nations who were prone to war and violence, will have done much evil in their lives...but ignorance means that they did not break the laws of a God that they never knew about. No one can be convicted of crimes committed in ignorance. God's law covered even unintentional manslaughter....when someone accidentally killed someone, the penalty was reflected in the punishment, when there was an absence of malice....no harm intended....not pre-meditated.

The 1,000 year reign of Christ will be that "judgment period" where resurrected ones will have an opportunity to repent and to bring their lives into harmony with God's requirements. There is one final test at the close of the thousand years, where satan is released for "a little while" to test the untested. (Rev 20:1-3) Only those who pass that final test will be granted life of the kind that we were all supposed to live in the beginning....everlasting life in paradise on earth....God's first purpose was never abandoned. (Isa 55:11)

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:46)

Everlasting death is an "everlasting punishment".....it just isn't conscious. Only living things are conscious and the dead are not conscious at all according to Eccl 9:5. 10, so the everlasting punishment is everlasting death, which is contrasted with everlasting life. You have to be alive to suffer and the dead are not alive.

As for the rest of your loooong post…

That’s lots of s’plainin’ for such a short clear verse.

I'm prone to s'plaining....its what I have to do for myself before I can s'plain to anyone else......details are very important to me.
I never was a "yes or no" kinda gal.....more of a "why, what, when and how".....you could never fob me off with a lame excuse or explanation....I want the whole picture or none at all. I love the Bible's whole picture......it makes such perfect sense.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I knew you would quote the segment about destruction but I quoted more material from a different source that says otherwise,

Are you confident about your sources? I use the ones that tell me the truth.....Strongs is a 'go to' for me because even when the verses are mistranslated, I can always find what the original word means....and it exposes the translation bias.
Destruction is destruction.....Jesus said that those in Gehenna are "destroyed". You can't make it say something else.

Funny you say the same thing about the Jews I said when you were quoting their version of the Old Testament,

What do you mean "their version of the OT? It was the only version.....it was their scripture....written in their language by their people. No one knows Hebrew like a Jew. All the Bible writers were Jewish......even the NT.

God does not allow anyone to alter his message, even when they mistranslate words. The Bible is a warts and all expose' of the faults of the nation he chose to give his laws to.......he did not choose Israel because they were special...he chose Israel because Abraham was special, and he needed human lineage to give his Messiah the necessary credentials.

Your post doesn’t explain the scriptures I quoted you are just ignoring what Jesus said.

But it does.....you aren't listening again.
"Gehenna" to a Jew was not what "hell" is to those in Christendom......to Jesus' Jewish audience, gehenna was a place of no return....a place where garbage was disposed of. It meant no resurrection....and a resurrection was where the real life would be lived...not in this world where satan is the ruler, but in a world ruled by God through his Messiah. (1 John 5:19)
Rev 21:2-4 is what both Jewish and Gentile Christians looked forward to. Not heaven, which is only for the elect, but the restoration of God's first purpose. (Isa 55:11)

If a place is so bad you would be better off to mutilate yourself than go there that doesn’t sound like annihilation. I’m not sure what I believe about Hell I recently read Four Views on Hell and have studied other views but I’m not ready to write it off either. ECT is difficult to understand but it is a possibility. I would like for you to be right about this it would be easier to accept but I’m not so sure that you’re right

If you know the God of Jesus Christ, you could never entertain such a thing as coming from a loving God.
In Jeremiah 7:30-31....Jehovah said...
"For the children of Judah have done that which is evil in my sight, saith Jehovah: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to defile it. 31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind." (ASV)

If it never came into God's mind to burn sons and daughters in a fire, then why would he do himself what he condemned the Israelites for?
Gehenna is not a place of conscious torture, but a place where the garbage of the earth will be tossed (symbolically) because those people did not do what God has commanded....they will have failed the test and forfeited their lives.

 

[RLT63]

Are you confident about your sources? I use the ones that tell me the truth.....Strongs is a 'go to' for me because even when the verses are mistranslated, I can always find what the original word means....and it exposes the translation bias.
Destruction is destruction.....Jesus said that those in Gehenna are "destroyed". You can't make it say something else.

What do you mean "their version of the OT? It was the only version.....it was their scripture....written in their language by their people. No one knows Hebrew like a Jew. All the Bible writers were Jewish......even the NT.

God does not allow anyone to alter his message, even when they mistranslate words. The Bible is a warts and all expose' of the faults of the nation he chose to give his laws to.......he did not choose Israel because they were special...he chose Israel because Abraham was special, and he needed human lineage to give his Messiah the necessary credentials.

But it does.....you aren't listening again.
"Gehenna" to a Jew was not what "hell" is to those in Christendom......to Jesus' Jewish audience, gehenna was a place of no return....a place where garbage was disposed of. It meant no resurrection....and a resurrection was where the real life would be lived...not in this world where satan is the ruler, but in a world ruled by God through his Messiah. (1 John 5:19)
Rev 21:2-4 is what both Jewish and Gentile Christians looked forward to. Not heaven, which is only for the elect, but the restoration of God's first purpose. (Isa 55:11)

If you know the God of Jesus Christ, you could never entertain such a thing as coming from a loving God.
In Jeremiah 7:30-31....Jehovah said...
"For the children of Judah have done that which is evil in my sight, saith Jehovah: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to defile it. 31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind." (ASV)

If it never came into God's mind to burn sons and daughters in a fire, then why would he do himself what he condemned the Israelites for?
Gehenna is not a place of conscious torture, but a place where the garbage of the earth will be tossed (symbolically) because those people did not do what God has commanded....they will have failed the test and forfeited their lives.

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire-is not quenched.

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Matthew 13:50
And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Matthew 23:33
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Luke 16:23
And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Mark 9:43
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

Matthew 5:29
If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell