The Rapture is True and Pre Trib

[TWC]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

This meeting is on the Lord's descent, and for those meeting Him in the air to be with Him forever afterwards implies that both parties are headed to the same place. Nothing in that passage says anything about anyone going to heaven.

 

[JLB]

We can’t tell their relative timing from this, but we can tell they’re not the same thing. One is when He comes back down to Earth, while from 1 Thes. 4:16-17 we know the other has us going up to meet Him in the air and continuing to Heaven. The 2nd coming will be witnessed by everyone (Matt. 24:30), but the rapture is an instantaneous disappearance (1 Cor. 15:51-52) that happens without warning. they are separate events. the second coming and the day of the Lord are the same thing.

Brother,

are you seriously going to convince people that 1 thess 4 and 1 thess 5 and seperate events.

How in the world to justify that kind of thinking.


Paul is clearly saying, BUT of the timing of this event, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

You are being just plain STUBBORN!

 

[7angels]

Brother,

are you seriously going to convince people that 1 thess 4 and 1 thess 5 and seperate events.

How in the world to justify that kind of thinking.


Paul is clearly saying, BUT of the timing of this event, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

You are being just plain STUBBORN!

the same could be said about yourselves.

The rapture of the church is an event where Jesus returns and takes believers to Heaven. Jesus returns in the air, raises up all believers, and takes them to the place he has prepared for them in his Father's house. The Second Coming on the other hand Jesus returns to earth, literally touches his feet on the Mount of Olives, and brings the church back with him as illustrated in Revelation. So, in the case of the rapture Jesus does not touch the ground and raises believers up to him, whereas the Second Coming he literally touches the ground and brings believers back with him. These differences separate the two events and show why they can't be taking about the same event.

 

[veteran]

the same could be said about yourselves.

The rapture of the church is an event where Jesus returns and takes believers to Heaven. Jesus returns in the air, raises up all believers, and takes them to the place he has prepared for them in his Father's house. The Second Coming on the other hand Jesus returns to earth, literally touches his feet on the Mount of Olives, and brings the church back with him as illustrated in Revelation. So, in the case of the rapture Jesus does not touch the ground and raises believers up to him, whereas the Second Coming he literally touches the ground and brings believers back with him. These differences separate the two events and show why they can't be taking about the same event.

That cannot be proven by Scripture in God's Word. Now it CAN... be proven by those who preach the Pre-trib Rapture doctrines of MEN. But who should we listen to, men or God in His Word??

 

[TWC]

the same could be said about yourselves.

The rapture of the church is an event where Jesus returns and takes believers to Heaven. Jesus returns in the air, raises up all believers, and takes them to the place he has prepared for them in his Father's house. The Second Coming on the other hand Jesus returns to earth, literally touches his feet on the Mount of Olives, and brings the church back with him as illustrated in Revelation. So, in the case of the rapture Jesus does not touch the ground and raises believers up to him, whereas the Second Coming he literally touches the ground and brings believers back with him. These differences separate the two events and show why they can't be taking about the same event.

Please provide biblical evidence of the parts in bold as they relate to the context of your post. For example, give biblical evidence that believers are taken to heaven at the "rapture".

 

[JLB]

the same could be said about yourselves.

The rapture of the church is an event where Jesus returns and takes believers to Heaven. Jesus returns in the air, raises up all believers, and takes them to the place he has prepared for them in his Father's house. The Second Coming on the other hand Jesus returns to earth, literally touches his feet on the Mount of Olives, and brings the church back with him as illustrated in Revelation. So, in the case of the rapture Jesus does not touch the ground and raises believers up to him, whereas the Second Coming he literally touches the ground and brings believers back with him. These differences separate the two events and show why they can't be taking about the same event.

Show in scripture why you believe

1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

is a seperate event from The Day of The Lord.

All you are doing is giving your opinion based on what you have been taught. We are asking you to simply give scripture as evidence of what you believe.

Clearly, in scripture The Day of The Lord is a term that signals the time when the Lord returns and takes vengence on His enemies.

The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. Joel 2:31

This is just one example that The Lord quoted from when answering His disciples question "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"


Paul clearly taught us at His return The dead in Christ will rise first, THEN we who are alive will be caught up, THEN comes the END,
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:23


What you are trying to convince us is The resurrection of the dead in Christ, when He puts an end to all rule and authority happens before the tribulation starts.


IMPOSSIBLE!

 

[7angels]

now i ask you jlb and twc to stay with me before you blow off what i have to say. first let me say that you are right that there will be a rapture of the saints left during the great trib on the day of the Lord which happens the great trib is over. i agree with you there and i know where you are coming from. but the church is Jesus' bride and not meant for God's wrath(1 thes 5:9 and rom 5:9). the church is given power over all principalities and powers of the enemy where nothing will hurt me(luke 10:19). but rev 13:7 says that God is going to give the lawlless one power to overcome the saints. luke 10:19 Jesus is talking about the church and in rev 13:7 God is talking about those who are going through the great trib. now we know God does not contradict himself so what can this mean so that these 2 verses are not going to contradict each other. the only thing i can think of is that the church will not be around.

The following contrasts are found in passages describing the coming of Christ. We suggest that these differences are an indication that different comings are in view: the coming of Christ as bridegroom for His expectant Church (the Rapture) versus the Second Coming of Christ upon an unbelieving world in judgment. first we will look at the scripture for the rapture then i will post the scripture that refers to the second coming.

rapture scriptures
Christ comes for His own ( John 14:3; 1Th. 5:28; 2Th. 2:1).
Christ comes in the air (1Th. 4:17).
Christ claims His bride (1Th. 4:16-17).
Removal of believers (1Th. 4:17).
Only His own see Him ( 1Th. 4:13-18).
Tribulation begins (2Th. 1:6-9).
Saved are delivered from wrath (1Th. 1:10; 1Th. 5:9).
No signs precede rapture (1Th. 5:1-3).
Focus is Lord and Church (1Th. 4:13-18).
World is deceived (2Th. 2:3-12).
Believers depart the earth (1Th. 4:15-17)
Unbelievers remain on earth.
No mention of establishing Christ’s Kingdom on earth.
Christians taken to the Father’s house ( John 14:1-3).
Imminent—could happen at any moment.
Precedes the career of the man of sin. (2Th. 2:1-3).

2nd coming scriptures
Christ comes with His own (1Th. 3:13; Jude 1:14; Rev. 19:14+)
Christ comes to the earth (Zec. 14:4; Acts 1:11).
Christ comes with His bride ( Rev. 19:6-14+).
Manifestation of Christ ( Mal. 4:2)
Every eye shall see Him (Rev. 1:7+).
Millennial Kingdom begins (Rev. 20:1-7+)
Unsaved experience the wrath of God (Rev. 6:12-17+)
Signs precede Second Coming ( Luke 21:11, Luke 21:15).
Focus is Israel and kingdom (Mat. 24:14)
Satan is bound so he cannot deceive ( Rev. 20:1-2+)
Unbelievers are taken away from the earth ( Mat. 24:37-41)
Believers remain on earth (Mat. 25:34)
Christ has come to set up His Kingdom on earth ( Mat. 25:31, Mat. 25:34).
Resurrected saints do not see the Father’s house (Rev. 20:4+)
Cannot occur for at least 7 years.
Terminates the career of the man of sin (Rev. 19:20+).

these are all scriptures concerning the rapture and the second coming(also called the day of the Lord). if you have questions let us discuss them without disregarding them out of hand. i still don't know much so maybe we can all learn something.

God bless you

 

[TWC]

Christ comes for His own ( John 14:3; 1Th. 5:28; 2Th. 2:1).

Revelation 21:2-3
I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

Christ comes in the air (1Th. 4:17).

The meeting is in the air as the Lord is descending from heaven.

Christ claims His bride (1Th. 4:16-17).

Yes, the dead in Christ rise first, but because Revelation 20:4 states when the first resurrection occurs, we know that it can't happen before that.

Removal of believers (1Th. 4:17).

You're assuming that these believers are taken to heaven when the passage says no such thing. The meeting is in the air on the Lord's descent from heaven.

Only His own see Him ( 1Th. 4:13-18).

This passage says no such thing.

Tribulation begins (2Th. 1:6-9).

God providing relief to the troubled church at Thessalonica is the beginning of the tribulation?

Saved are delivered from wrath (1Th. 1:10; 1Th. 5:9).

What wrath again?

No signs precede rapture (1Th. 5:1-3).

He's talking about the Day of the Lord, which you're claiming is a separate event.

Focus is Lord and Church (1Th. 4:13-18).

Of course it is.

World is deceived (2Th. 2:3-12).

This would also include those who believe themselves to be saved but are not.

Believers depart the earth (1Th. 4:15-17)

Again, meeting the Lord in the air doesn't necessitate believers ascending into heaven, especially since the meeting is with the Lord on his descent from heaven.

Unbelievers remain on earth.

When Paul said, "We who are alive and remain..." he was addressing a church and including himself.

No mention of establishing Christ’s Kingdom on earth.

Refer back to Revelation 21.

Christians taken to the Father’s house ( John 14:1-3).

Again, refer back to Revelation 21

Imminent—could happen at any moment.
Precedes the career of the man of sin. (2Th. 2:1-3).

Paul's talking about the Day of the Lord, by the way.

 

[7angels]

twc

do you believe in the rapture at all? from your statements it sounds like you don't believe the rapture will happen but that we will stay on earth and God will bring down the new jerusalem to earth and that is the place we will reside without actually arriving into heaven itself. this will help me understand where you are coming from.

thanks in advance for your reply

 

[TWC]

I believe in going by what the Bible says, taking caution to not go beyond what's written. I believe that the Bible, from one end to the other, is one cohesive whole. In other words, everything in it must agree with everything else in it, and what we see as being a discrepancy is an error of interpretation. The problem is that people don't want to study the Word further to see how the pieces fit together and instead add their own doctrines to make the scriptures "work" when the problem was with the reader in the first place. These false doctrines, like any other lie, have to continually be covered over with more and more doctrine in order to dodge the truth. It's no wonder that the pretrib rapture doctrine has undergone so many changes over the years.

 

[JLB]

twc

do you believe in the rapture at all? from your statements it sounds like you don't believe the rapture will happen but that we will stay on earth and God will bring down the new jerusalem to earth and that is the place we will reside without actually arriving into heaven itself. this will help me understand where you are coming from.

thanks in advance for your reply

I believe in the Rapture, however first comes the resurrection - For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.


Once you face the fact that the resurrection is BEFORE the rapture then everything else is cyrstal clear.

Now I ask you sir, Do you believe the resurrection comes before the rapture. YES or No ?

Please, just answer the question.


Thanks, JLB

 

[veteran]

....

rapture scriptures
Christ comes for His own ( John 14:3; 1Th. 5:28; 2Th. 2:1).
Christ comes in the air (1Th. 4:17).
Christ claims His bride (1Th. 4:16-17).
Removal of believers (1Th. 4:17).
Only His own see Him ( 1Th. 4:13-18).
Tribulation begins (2Th. 1:6-9).
Saved are delivered from wrath (1Th. 1:10; 1Th. 5:9).
No signs precede rapture (1Th. 5:1-3).
Focus is Lord and Church (1Th. 4:13-18).
World is deceived (2Th. 2:3-12).
Believers depart the earth (1Th. 4:15-17)
Unbelievers remain on earth.
No mention of establishing Christ’s Kingdom on earth.
Christians taken to the Father’s house ( John 14:1-3).
Imminent—could happen at any moment.
Precedes the career of the man of sin. (2Th. 2:1-3).

2nd coming scriptures
Christ comes with His own (1Th. 3:13; Jude 1:14; Rev. 19:14+)
Christ comes to the earth (Zec. 14:4; Acts 1:11).
Christ comes with His bride ( Rev. 19:6-14+).
Manifestation of Christ ( Mal. 4:2)
Every eye shall see Him (Rev. 1:7+).
Millennial Kingdom begins (Rev. 20:1-7+)
Unsaved experience the wrath of God (Rev. 6:12-17+)
Signs precede Second Coming ( Luke 21:11, Luke 21:15).
Focus is Israel and kingdom (Mat. 24:14)
Satan is bound so he cannot deceive ( Rev. 20:1-2+)
Unbelievers are taken away from the earth ( Mat. 24:37-41)
Believers remain on earth (Mat. 25:34)
Christ has come to set up His Kingdom on earth ( Mat. 25:31, Mat. 25:34).
Resurrected saints do not see the Father’s house (Rev. 20:4+)
Cannot occur for at least 7 years.
Terminates the career of the man of sin (Rev. 19:20+).

these are all scriptures concerning the rapture and the second coming(also called the day of the Lord). if you have questions let us discuss them without disregarding them out of hand. i still don't know much so maybe we can all learn something.

Since those Scriptures are being offered within a Pre-trib secret Rapture doctrinal of man sense, I'm going to address them from the start, until I get tired of how wrongly they are used by 7angels...

Christ comes for His own ( John 14:3; 1Th. 5:28; 2Th. 2:1).

John 14:2-3
2 In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
(KJV)

Starting at Ezekiel 40, God's House is described in detail; it's about the Millennium Sanctuary that's to manifest when Jesus returns. That's WHERE those "mansion" are, for the Greek word for "mansions" is 'abodes', i.e., dwellings. Those dwelling areas are within the Ezekiel Millennium Temple layout for the priest's abodes. That's what our Lord Jesus was talking about. And per the Ezekiel 40-49 Scripture, those "manisons" are ON EARTH, in the Holy Lands of promise. How many realize that has yet to manifest on earth today? So 7angels's listing this John Scripture proves nothing to support a Pre-trib Rapture.


1Thes 5:28
28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
(KJV)

7angels must have missed-quoted, because that 1 Thess.5:28 verse reveals nothing to support a Pre-trib Rapture view. So scrap that reference from his post.


II Th 2:1
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
(KJV)

That sole verse by itself does nothing to establish a Pre-trib Rapture theory either. So far, none of the Scriptures 7angels listed has given any support for a Pre-trib Rapture view.

Christ comes in the air (1Th. 4:17).

1Thes 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

Once again, that verse does not prove a Pre-trib Rapture position. It's simply about our gathering to Christ Jesus at His coming. It doesn't say WHEN in that verse, doesn't even allude to when there.

Christ claims His bride (1Th. 4:16-17).

1Thes 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

7angels just got done quoting the 1 Thess.4:16 verse, and now all he's done is add the 16th verse with it. That 16th verse does nothing to support a Pre-trib Rapture view either. The WHEN of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him still cannot be determined with any of the verses 7angels has listed so far. Adding the 16th verse with the one he just listed show what? Filler, to try and make his list SEEM as if there's a lot of Scripture support for his Pre-trib Rapture position. Not only that, but do you see anywhere in those verses where the word 'bride' is even mentioned? That idea doesn't even come from that Scripture example.

Removal of believers (1Th. 4:17).

Well, that's kind of obvious by now, once again with 1 Thess.4:17 being quoted, a 3rd time! Who doesn't know Paul was speaking about Christ's Church there? But where's support for the Pre-trib Rapture theory there? It just ain't there.

Only His own see Him ( 1Th. 4:13-18).

1Thes 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(KJV)

And yet another repeat of the 1 Thess.4 Scripture. Just where is his view that only Christ's own will see Him? Do you see that idea anywhere written in those verses he quoted??? Nope! It is not there. As a matter of fact, that idea that "Only His own see Him" is not written anywhere in The Bible at all! Instead, per Rev.1:7, Jesus revealed ALL eyes will see Him at His coming!

So who do you think those like 7angels is listening to which drove him to do that with God's Word??? It certainly was not God nor His Christ that led him to do that, but the doctrines of men that caused him in ignorace to push that idea which comes from outside... the written Scripture.


Well, I think that's enough to show how believers on the Pre-trib Rapture theory are deceived by men's doctrines, and allow themselves to be deceived, and really are NOT... studying The Scripture for theirselves, but are just regurgitating ideas and doctrines they've been taught by men. Wanting an idea to be true just doesn't get it in God's Word. We have to stay with what He said in His Word, and not be concerned about pop traditions of men, nor even their methods to persuade. If one really want to know the Truth, then they will learn to depend DIRECTLY upon God for it, and not man.

 

[JLB]

Thank you Veteran!

Thank you for taking your time to thoroughly and dilligently as well as patiently examine each and every scripture reference 7 angels has falsely tried to use.

You have exposed it for what it is - a doctine of demons!


You are much appreciated brother.


Thanks, JLB

 

[7angels]

I believe in the Rapture, however first comes the resurrection - For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.


Once you face the fact that the resurrection is BEFORE the rapture then everything else is cyrstal clear.

Now I ask you sir, Do you believe the resurrection comes before the rapture. YES or No ?

Please, just answer the question.


Thanks, JLB

yes i do believe in a rapture before the resurrection.

veteran

i was not asked to prove pretrib rapture but for scriptures that told about a rapture. please lets all get on the same sheet of music. this miscommunication we are having will lead to strife if we are not careful. so please tell what is it you all are looking for? until i hear from you i think i will answer twc's question.

Revelation 21:2-3
I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

Revelation 19:7-8 indicates that the church, Christ's Bride, is made ready to accompany Christ to earth (Rev. 19:14) before the second coming, how could this reasonably happen if part of the church is still on earth awaiting Christ's Advent? If the rapture of the church takes place at the second coming, then how does the Bride (i.e., the church) also come with Christ at His return? There would not be sufficient time for this to happen within a post trib sequence, but the pre-trib position has no such problem. new Jerusalem does not come down until after the great trib.

the meeting is in the air as the Lord is descending from heaven.

The second coming is Christ returning with His saints, descending from heaven to establish His earthly kingdom (Zech. 14:4-5; Mat. 24:27-31)

Yes, the dead in Christ rise first, but because Revelation 20:4 states when the first resurrection occurs, we know that it can't happen before that.


You're assuming that these believers are taken to heaven when the passage says no such thing. The meeting is in the air on the Lord's descent from heaven.

The rapture is most clearly presented in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. In verse 17 the English phrase "caught up" translates the Greek word "harpázô," which means "to seize upon with force" or "to snatch up." Latin translators of the Bible used the word "rapere," the root of the English term "rapture." At the rapture living believers will be "caught up" in the air, translated into the clouds, in a moment of time.
The rapture is characterized in the Bible as a "translation coming" (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thes. 4:15-17) in which Christ comes for His church. notice that in 1 thes 4:17 we will be brought into the air where the second coming Jesus is descending to establish his kingdom(zech 14:4-5)

This passage says no such thing.

sorry i posted the wrong scripture here

God providing relief to the troubled church at Thessalonica is the beginning of the tribulation?

i believe paul is clearing up a misunderstanding of the rapture and day of the Lord which is why paul even wrote a 2 thes.

What wrath again?

God's wrath on isreal and upon those unbelievers left behind during the great trib.

He's talking about the Day of the Lord, which you're claiming is a separate event.

no paul is not. if you read you will see that the day of the lord and the second coming are the same. during the second coming everyone will see Jesus when he comes but if you read 1 thes 5:1-3 you will see that Jesus will come like a theif in the night. now look at v 4-7 and you will see that not everyone will see Jesus coming but those that are of God. this is referring to the rapture because in the second coming everyone will see the Lord's return(rev 1:7).

Of course it is.

This would also include those who believe themselves to be saved but are not.

these verses refers to the events that need to happen in order for for the day of the Lord to come about.

Again, meeting the Lord in the air doesn't necessitate believers ascending into heaven, especially since the meeting is with the Lord on his descent from heaven.

you need to remember that the rapture takes place before the great trib and so Jesus would not come get us and then leave us on the earth during the great trib. no we will go to heaven and then come back with Christ at the second coming where the Lord will establish his kingdom.

When Paul said, "We who are alive and remain..." he was addressing a church and including himself.

not sure what you are referring to here

Refer back to Revelation 21.

again this happens at the second coming of Christ and not the rapture.

Again, refer back to Revelation 21

i believe The rapture is a resurrection event where the Lord takes believers "to the Father's house" in heaven (John 14:3), while at the second coming believers return from heaven to the earth (Matt. 24:30).

Paul's talking about the Day of the Lord, by the way.

verse 1 speaks of 2 events:the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and our gathering together to [meet] Him. verses 2&3 talk of the events that will lead up to the day of the Lord.

i hope this answers your questions. if not feel free to ask more.
God bless you all

 

[JLB]

yes i do believe in a rapture before the resurrection.

Brother you simply don't believe what the bible teaches about this subject.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

As Veteran and others have stated you just have an opinion with no scripture to back it up.

I will leave you to eat the fruit of your own way.




veteran

i was not asked to prove pretrib rapture but for scriptures that told about a rapture. please lets all get on the same sheet of music. this miscommunication we are having will lead to strife if we are not careful. so please tell what is it you all are looking for? until i hear from you i think i will answer twc's question.

This thread is called
The Rapture is True and Pre Trib


That is the topic of our discussion. All the scriptures you gave as a reference gave no proof of a Pre-trib rapture. You just gave scripture references to try and valdate your point, but Veteran clearly showed everybody that once again those who hold to a pre-trib rapture have no scripture to back up what they believe.



Please repent of this demonic false doctrine.

 

[veteran]

yes i do believe in a rapture before the resurrection.

veteran

i was not asked to prove pretrib rapture but for scriptures that told about a rapture. please lets all get on the same sheet of music. this miscommunication we are having will lead to strife if we are not careful. so please tell what is it you all are looking for? until i hear from you i think i will answer twc's question.

Like JLB said, this thread is supposed to be about those who support a Pre-trib Rapture theory providing Biblical proof of it. Not all who refuse the Pre-trib Rapture theory are ignorant of the 'harpazo' event of our gathering to Christ Jesus. It's mostly the 'kingdom now' Preterist folks that totally deny a future literal gathering to Jesus at His future return, and I'm not one of those, nor do I deny that harpazo event.

Your very first statement above even shows how you are Biblically illiterate of what the gathering to Jesus at His coming is about, for it is specifically what the resurrection is about too. Paul covered the difference in the 1 Thess.4 Scripture about the saints that are 'asleep' which Jesus will bring with Him when He comes. We who remain alive on earth will be 'changed' to our "spiritual body" according to Paul in 1 Cor.15, and then joined with them. That's specifically what the "caught up" (harpazo) idea is about. But those you're listening to are wrongly teaching you to separate all that just because Paul covered the 'change' detail in 1 Cor.15 instead of in 1 Thess.4. You should note in 1 Cor.15 that Paul was also covering the 1 Thess.4 part about the 'asleep' saints being raised, which is what the resurrection is.

Now the idea that 'only His see Him' when our Lord Jesus comes is an idea straight out of the 1830's doctrines of John Darby in Britain. That's where his 'secret' idea came from, the theory that Christ's coming would be a secret coming to gather His saints while the unbelieving would be left on the earth to go through the tribulation. That idea is one of the first tools they used to try and separate different times for the gathering of the saints to Christ Jesus. The Rev.1:7 verse from our Lord Jesus Himself directly counters that idea, which says all... eyes will see Him at His coming. That makes all the Left-Behind books and movies by Tim LaHaye and others fall flat. The only thing left is the popularity of the doctrine and the numbers who wrongly believe in it. And numbers of people believing an idea does not... make it so.

 

[[email protected]]

I do not see this as a plan to lose sight, for we know not to worry for tomorrow. I see it as another assurance as to not worry about the impending wrath this world will see. Also to say the HolySpirit will be gone is another farce as the 144,000 will be sealed. We will also have the two witnesses. Let alone to say God's omnipresence. Thats just me hollering from the center of the choir.

I'd worry if I were you. I'd worry a lot. I do.

What do we think is coming upon the world? I mean in the short term? Peace and safety? Not unless you bury your head in the sand and stop reading and listening to the news.

* The US Federal government has entangled America in thirteen concurrent wars. Our ubiquitous war on terror is nothing but a smoke screen, an overt method of extending police state regulations into every corner of American hegemony.

Don't worry. Be happy.

* The American financial cartel is still stripping away the wealth of working men and women for their own gain and nothing is being done about it. This means inflation. Higher prices for everything. The days of prosperity are over. We've been told for years that hard times are coming.

Don't worry. Be happy.

* Debauchery is everywhere in government. Whatever wisdom still remains to our leadership is being used to betray us and give advantage to the oligarchs.

Don't worry. Be happy.

History records that those nations who turned their backs upon God, divided and collapsed of their own rotten weight. Every state in America has active groups working for secession; the division of America into separate sovereign nations. While this appears to be an improvement in the eyes of many, it portends the end of the country we all grew up knowing.

Don't worry. Be happy.

Bobby McFerrin recorded the song of the year 1989. It's name? Don't worry. Be happy. He's so sick of it, he refuses to perform the song any more. Yes, dear reader there is much to be concerned about.

In Christ, there is confidence to continue. That confidence we rely upon isn't based upon mindless fantasies, but on a very real presence and guidance in our lives. I for one am filled with dread at the things which are coming upon the earth, things which are expected and things which aren't. Whether I live or die because of them, I know that Christ will be with me and that fact alone makes life worth living.

Hard times require a harder savior, and Jesus will be with me down here in the dirt with everybody else. I don't expect a fantastic beam out to solve my problems. That is a childish story if ever I heard one. Jesus is with us and He promised he'd never leave. I can take that to the bank. Can you?

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[7angels]

This thread is called
The Rapture is True and Pre Trib


That is the topic of our discussion. All the scriptures you gave as a reference gave no proof of a Pre-trib rapture. You just gave scripture references to try and valdate your point, but Veteran clearly showed everybody that once again those who hold to a pre-trib rapture have no scripture to back up what they believe.



Please repent of this demonic false doctrine.

i ask you you guys if you wanted to discuss this topic and not argue it. the way you answered i thought that was what we were going to do but now it seems you want to argue again. i expected an argument from veteran because he never agreed to anything. which is why i asked you where you all wanted to start. you guys wanted scripture on the rapture. fine i posted scripture that is used most commonly. i did not go into how it was used but you have already counted as useless without even any discussion. to me that is not wisdom but foolish. for example if you were to have a new guy start work at your place of employment and then tell you that he knows how to do all the jobs but you know there is and easier way wouldn't you try and help them? if you did help them what if they told you that they knew how to do the job and disregarded your advice without even hearing you out. that would be foolish right? well you are doing the same thing. you think you know my position without even hearing me out.

veteran
if you are so sure you know exactly what i am going to say then why don't you tell me what i was going to say. if you are exactly right about what i would say then i would know that you know where it is i am coming from and i will concede this discussion. but if you cannot then you need to stop your insulting of the way i believe(whether you believe it or not). are you up to the challenge?

do not worry i am man enough to admit when others are right so you have no need to worry about me going back on my word. or do you doubt me?

God bless you all

 

[JLB]

7 Angels wrote -

i ask you you guys if you wanted to discuss this topic and not argue it. the way you answered i thought that was what we were going to do but now it seems you want to argue again. i expected an argument from veteran because he never agreed to anything. which is why i asked you where you all wanted to start. you guys wanted scripture on the rapture. fine i posted scripture that is used most commonly. i did not go into how it was used but you have already counted as useless without even any discussion. to me that is not wisdom but foolish. for example if you were to have a new guy start work at your place of employment and then tell you that he knows how to do all the jobs but you know there is and easier way wouldn't you try and help them? if you did help them what if they told you that they knew how to do the job and disregarded your advice without even hearing you out. that would be foolish right? well you are doing the same thing. you think you know my position without even hearing me out.


Brother,

I will listen to you if you want to reason from the scriptures. However, when you continue to argue when you are shown clear and simple scriptures that refute what you are trying to get people to believe, you are argueing with scripture. I'm sorry you don't like what the scriptures teach.

Again, if you have a scripture to support your belief, please by all means write it out and refer to it.

If you want to continue to spout your opinion and add a scripture reference that has nothing to do with what you are conveying, as Veteran so clearly showed then save your breath.


Thank you, God Bless you, JLB

 

[veteran]

i ask you you guys if you wanted to discuss this topic and not argue it. the way you answered i thought that was what we were going to do but now it seems you want to argue again. i expected an argument from veteran because he never agreed to anything. which is why i asked you where you all wanted to start. you guys wanted scripture on the rapture. fine i posted scripture that is used most commonly. i did not go into how it was used but you have already counted as useless without even any discussion. to me that is not wisdom but foolish. for example if you were to have a new guy start work at your place of employment and then tell you that he knows how to do all the jobs but you know there is and easier way wouldn't you try and help them? if you did help them what if they told you that they knew how to do the job and disregarded your advice without even hearing you out. that would be foolish right? well you are doing the same thing. you think you know my position without even hearing me out.

You mean it's OK for you to list Bible Scripture which 'you' say proves a Pre-trib Rapture theory, and we're supposed to take your word for it without any regard to how those Scriptures read as written? What kind of logic is that?

veteran
if you are so sure you know exactly what i am going to say then why don't you tell me what i was going to say. if you are exactly right about what i would say then i would know that you know where it is i am coming from and i will concede this discussion. but if you cannot then you need to stop your insulting of the way i believe(whether you believe it or not). are you up to the challenge?

do not worry i am man enough to admit when others are right so you have no need to worry about me going back on my word. or do you doubt me?

God bless you all

I think you're terribly confused at this point, and you're not really paying attention to what you're saying.

Discussing this matter here is not a game, at least not with me. I don't think it is with others here like myself either. It's not about some political debate with someone trying to show how smart they are, or how many snappy answers they can come back with. We are going to be held accountable to our Lord Jesus for what we teach. So it's not something to play games with.