Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Can you cite this literal 1,000 years in Genesis? You cited Genesis 2 and there is nothing there to say any time period.
Coincidences? Or Time to WATCH be READY for the Day and Hour Is Near
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Agreed. There will be 5.
That's one. It occurs before the seals are opened.
No. Most pretribbers would believe that the armies of heaven return at the end of the trumpets and the kingdom is set up on earth.
This is where you are really screwing up. The tribulation of OVER at the 6th seal. The sixth seal is not the same as the 7th trumpet.
EXACTLY!
EXACTLY!
No. This is incorrect. The trumpet and vials are parallel, but not the seals.
How can this be correct? Jesus returns at the 6th seal, not the 7th. The 7th trumpet and the 7th vial are parallel but the seals not.
No. The pretrib does not teach a coming at the 6th seal. They teach a coming at the 7th trumpet and a coming before the seals are opened.
It occurs to me how difficult it is to break through the confusion when talking about these things as you think that the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the same coming of Jesus at the 7th trumpet. This cannot be the case.
We can agree here.
The end of the age occurs at the 6th seal. There is a gathering from heaven and earth and then all return to heaven for the marriage supper. That is why you see the armies of heaven return with the Lord in Rev 19 after the marriage supper.
Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest. We see this coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. THIS IS NOT THE COMING OF JESUS AT THE END OF THE TRUMPETS OR VIALS.
Jesus comes at the 6th seal. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. The trumpets and vials are the wrath of God. THE TRIBULATION IS OVER AT THE 6TH SEAL. THEN the wrath of God begins.
The mostly Gentile Church will already be in heaven before the coming of the Lord for gathering from heaven and earth at the 6th seal. After the Church is in heaven, part of Israel can see that Jesus is Messiah.
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
How do you not understand this. Just read what it says. No interpretation is necessary.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
The last trump is not the 7th trumpet of wrath. When Paul wrote this, there was no Book of Revelation. John would not receive the Revelation until years, and years later. Did you notice any follow up from Paul? such as:
Forgive me brothers and sisters for causing such confusion regarding the last trump. Years from now, John is going to have a Revelation and then you will know what the last trump is. No. There is never any confusion about what the last trump is. The last trump is blown every year on the Feast of Trumpets. The Jews knew exactly what Paul was talking about regarding the last trump. So get off you high horse and learn some things so you can gain some understanding.
Do you not understand the difference between the Lord Himself coming down from heaven and the Lord sending His angels.
Your lack of understand has no bounds. One thing I can be sure of is that that you are not a detective as your ability to connect the dots are lacking.
You are unable to see that the Lord Himself will come when it is like the days of Noah. The Lord will come again when it is like the days of Lot, but He sends His angels.
When the Lord brought salvation to Noah, the Lord Himself shut the ark door 7 days before the flood even as the Church will be in heaven 7 years before wrath. However the Lord sent angels to get Lot even as the Lord will send His angels for the gathering from heaven and earth.
If you want to gain any understanding, read what the Word says.
Pretrib has nothing to do with the wrath of God.
How do you not know, that the trumpets of wrath occur in the same timeframe as the vials?
How do you not understand that the Lord has returned and Armageddon is over by the 7th trumpet of wrath. It's over. Done. Finished.
Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Jesus has returned and Armageddon is over by the 7th. Do you just pretend that when the KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD that means nothing. Pretend the Word doesn't say that? GOD HAS SET UP HIS KINGDOM ON EARTH.
I'm not saying that the vial are not the wrath of God. However, you don't seem to understand that the trumpets are also the wrath of God. It's like two reporters watching the same game and giving you two different versions of what they see.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
my Brother = Did we not already cover this!
Romans 11:25 - undeniable Truth that when the LORD Returns all Israel of the flesh, who escaped the Judgment prophesied in Zechariah, will be SAVED.
Simple Truth from the LORD - Matthew 23:37-39
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! Look, your house is left to you desolate.
For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’
Your dilemma is you refuse to accept the very words of the LORD Jesus Christ:
"This gospel will be preached in all the world(all nations) and then the end will come."
Matthew 24:14
The devil hates the gospel so he establishes false teaching and prophecy in the churches to divide and to blind.
Escape from being a mouth piece for falsehood.
Confess to the LORD His words = "This gospel will be preached in all the world(all nations) and then the end will come."
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Here it is and yet you cannot SEE - Revelation 11:15-18
Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
When the LORD Returns at the sound of the 7th Trump the dead in Him will RISE (First Resurrection) = 1 thess 4:13-18 & Rev ch20
The 7th Trump is the LAST Trump (time for you to wake UP here) there are no Trumpets blown after the 7th.
The lie of pre-trib covers your heart/mind/eyes so that you refuse to acknowledge this Truth.
"and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath."
Davy
Well-Known Member
Game playing? I guess you would find a need to say that after I disproved your 777 scenario. Doesn't have legs, does it?
I'm sorry that you see only one coming of Jesus when there are 5.
1. The barley harvest. The dead in Christ rise first.
1 Thessalonians 4:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
2. The wheat harvest. The alive believers are caught up.
1 Thessalonians 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
3. The Lord comes for the first fruits of the fall fruit harvest.
Revelation 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
4. The fall fruit harvest.
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
5 Jesus returns with the armies of heaven.
Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
The fact that you do not understand these things, does not change the FACT that they are.
That said. I will be happy to disprove that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 cannot be the coming of Jesus at the end of the trumpets if you would like to discuss one point.
ewq1938
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Jesus comes at the last trump according to scripture, not at any seal. The GT is still going on during the 6th trump. There is no way Jesus had returned before the GT even ended. Christ is clear he returns AFTER the GT not before or during it.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Genesis ch2 is Elohim = Let Us make man in Our Image according to Our Likeness"
Elohim created man to walk with Him = Genesis ch2
Genesis chapter 3 the Serpent/Satan tempts Eve and she sins and Adam follows her in sin = we know the story very well.
Genesis 2:16 - "And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”
Did Adam and Eve die the very day they ate the fruit?
Jesus comes at the 6th seal which will be shown below in the Word of God. It will be without a doubt, crystal clear. And then I will wonder how in the world something so simple is not understood. Elementary deductive reasoning.
The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Jesus returns for a harvest. THEN the wrath of God BEGINS. The wrath of God is the trumpets or the vials as they are parallel.
There is absolute positive proof that Jesus returns before the GT. Attempt to see below.
Now that is 100% FACT. So all we need to do is prove that the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. THAT'S SIMPLE ENOUGH.
Okay. So you correctly understand that the tribulation is over and Jesus returns in Matthew 24. However, you think this occurs at the 7th trumpet. It does not. This occurs at the 6th seal.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
There it is. Simple as pie. You correctly understand that Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation. We have the signs of the sun, moon and stars as a marker. We see those signs at the 6th seal. That should tell you that Jesus returns at the 6th seal and the TRIBULATION IS OVER at the 6th seal. Simple as pie. And yet somehow the obvious can't be seen.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
You just exposed your pre-trib error = AGAIN
Revelation does parallels and in so doing connects the OT Prophets/Prophecy along with Gospel and Apostles writings.
Since you believe it to be your perogative to rebuke God at His words, He leaves you in blindness.
Only when your pre-trib rapture idol, that came forth from men, is burned with fire will you be able to SEE.
Brother. You are completely lost regarding the Book of Revelation. You are afraid to show the order Revelation, simply because you don't know.
Further, if you had a clue, you would see 24 elders in Revelation 4 with crowns. You don't get crowns until Jesus returns, so He has returned in Revelation 4. The kings and priests of Revelation 5 are the Church in heaven.
You have no clue that the Rapture of the Church is at the door and will soon happen. You are not watching as instructed. Instead, in your blindness you attack the Truth of the Word. You are without understanding. That's just how it is. Soon it will be too late and you will realize the DOOR IS SHUT. It's not too late yet. Get it together and seek the truth.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
i have every word of God that only Speaks Truth = "Thy Word is Truth"
His Word never spoke 'pre-trib' rapture - simple.
the LORD established His kingdom of priests here on earth FIRST in Genesis and then later in Deuteronomy.
Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. And he blessed him and said:
“Blessed be Abram of God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;
And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
And Abraham gave Melchizedek a tithe of all. - Genesis ch14
For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually. - Hebrews ch7
Then the Eternal KING and forever HIGH PRIEST of Jerusalem came to earth = Yeshua HaMoshiach
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King comes to you: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. - Zechariah 9:9
OT Prophecy Fulfilled - Matthew 21:1-5
Now when they drew near Jerusalem, and came to Bethphage, at the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Loose them and bring them to Me. And if anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord has need of them,’ and immediately he will send them.”
All this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:
“Tell the daughter of Zion,
‘Behold, your King is coming to you,
Lowly, and sitting on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.’ ”
We were made "kings and priests unto God" when we were Born-Again and Raised UP into His Kingdom.
He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the Kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Revelation 1:6 To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
(kings and priests of God now/today on earth waiting for His Second Coming)
v7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
We, who are in Christ, who have the Anointing of the Holy Spirit, are NOW/TODAY 'kings and priests unto God'.
Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
1 Peter ch2
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Great. Now about those crowns in Revelation 4........................................
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