What does it mean to be born again?

[Brakelite]

@Lizbeth, @stunnedbygrace, @Episkopos and others, I must confess that I haven't read every post in these pages, so likely this has been dealt with, but the present conundrum and apparent contradiction or paradox in scripture regarding our righteousness as God described as filthy rags.
I believe that some are using this verse of Isaiah's to defend their own reluctance to obey God's commandments. There is a fear among Christians, very similar to the fear of calling out woke politics in case of being branded a homophobe etc, a fear to stand on the side of obedience in case of the being branded a legalist, with the filthy rag verse being used as an ad hominem against those who seek to obey. In another post by @Behold he derided those who would suggest that obedience to God's commandments are a good thing by calling the law a curse, by claiming that being obedient is the same as being "under the law", etc.
I would put it to everyone that our righteousness is indeed filthy rags, but the righteousness that obeys God's Commandments, the righteousness that is in harmony with the law, the righteousness that is demonstrated through love and this fulfills the law, is all the same righteousness and that righteousness is not ours, but Christ's, given to those who seek and hunger and thirst for it, as a gift. Those who seek to dump on those who would seek to obey God's commandments are dumping on Christ. And right there you have the solution to the paradox.

 

[Episkopos]

@Lizbeth, @stunnedbygrace, @Episkopos and others, I must confess that I haven't read every post in these pages, so likely this has been dealt with, but the present conundrum and apparent contradiction or paradox in scripture regarding our righteousness as God described as filthy rags.
I believe that some are using this verse of Isaiah's to defend their own reluctance to obey God's commandments. There is a fear among Christians, very similar to the fear of calling out woke politics in case of being branded a homophobe etc, a fear to stand on the side of obedience in case of the being branded a legalist, with the filthy rag verse being used as an ad hominem against those who seek to obey. In another post by @Behold he derided those who would suggest that obedience to God's commandments are a good thing by calling the law a curse, by claiming that being obedient is the same as being "under the law", etc.
I would put it to everyone that our righteousness is indeed filthy rags, but the righteousness that obeys God's Commandments, the righteousness that is in harmony with the law, the righteousness that is demonstrated through love and this fulfills the law, is all the same righteousness and that righteousness is not ours, but Christ's, given to those who seek and hunger and thirst for it, as a gift. Those who seek to dump on those who would seek to obey God's commandments are dumping on Christ. And right there you have the solution to the paradox.

An owl among the crows?

I agree in large part with what you've said here.

You are only seeing righteousness through indoctrinated eyes, however. ALL our claims to righteousness are filthy rags. The truly righteous see themselves as mere sinners. A righteous person doesn't claim to be righteous. So that leaves out the crows here. I don't think many take Jesus' words seriously...certainly not the ones who attack my faithfulness to the Lord as being from the devil. These Pharisees who claim to be righteous think they are like the Publican...rather than the Pharisee. But a Pharisee will always look to be the better one...claiming all the good sounding verses for themselves...not at all like the Publican.

 

[quietthinker]

View attachment 29988

How do you tell a person they have the book upside down, even back to front when they firmly believe they have it the right way up?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

@Lizbeth, @stunnedbygrace, @Episkopos and others, I must confess that I haven't read every post in these pages, so likely this has been dealt with, but the present conundrum and apparent contradiction or paradox in scripture regarding our righteousness as God described as filthy rags.

At least you actually SEE that there is something wrong In our understanding. At least you SEE an apparent conundrum. Thats further than most can see.

I believe that some are using this verse of Isaiah's to defend their own reluctance to obey God's commandments. There is a fear among Christians, very similar to the fear of calling out woke politics in case of being branded a homophobe etc, a fear to stand on the side of obedience in case of the being branded a legalist, with the filthy rag verse being used as an ad hominem against those who seek to obey. In another post by @Behold he derided those who would suggest that obedience to God's commandments are a good thing by calling the law a curse, by claiming that being obedient is the same as being "under the law", etc.
I would put it to everyone that our righteousness is indeed filthy rags, but the righteousness that obeys God's Commandments, the righteousness that is in harmony with the law, the righteousness that is demonstrated through love and this fulfills the law, is all the same righteousness and that righteousness is not ours, but Christ's, given to those who seek and hunger and thirst for it, as a gift. Those who seek to dump on those who would seek to obey God's commandments are dumping on Christ. And right there you have the solution to the paradox.

I think that’s pretty good. I only have a push and pull with this one thing that you say: “I would put it to everyone that our righteousness is indeed filthy rags.” But you DO see that if someone does what is right and noble and lawful, there is a problem in saying it is filthy to have done so. So you see much more than most.

 

[APAK]

and for the final review @Episkopos
-------------------------------

15 mins in and until the end............I now 'see' the core message and gross corruption of scripture and flaw in your salvation theory

You say we must have the faith that we believe we can attain the same level of spiritual walk as Christ did on earth then God comes in and takes us up to Zion (into the Kingdom) - into the higher walk. So we can then deduce from your advise or theory of being saved in the Kingdom that this means only NO ONE can be in Zion or the Kingdom in the end because in the flesh we can NEVER walk as Christ did on earth, when he was in his flesh. He had the entire fullness of the Father within him and was led by him continuously since his msision start at his baptism and we do not have this same quality and quantity of the Spirit of God today in the flesh.

So you also say the full measure of grace is then given when we WE believe WE CAN WALK AS/exactly as Christ, IN FAITH....THIS IS TOTALLY UNSCRIPTURAL and impossible

And you use and misapply Hebrews 4:6 as your support for the entire theory. It really applies for true unbelievers who never sustained any truth faith even after a taste of the spirit for God, and for God and his Son (of God).

This verse concerning 'rest' means those who hold firm their faith in God throughout their lives as Paul's race, we will find and be in 'rest' in the end, at the end of this SPIRITUAL RIGHTEOUS and SANCTIFYING life. It has nothing to do with believing we can have this impossible faith that we can walk exactly like Christ as you promote. We can however believe with a firm faith that we can be Christlike of course and receive the 'rest' due to us as God allows.

John Owen a Puritan leader described five features of this rest for the believer:

· Rest means peace with God.

· Rest means freedom from a servile, bondage-like spirit in the worship and service of God.

· Rest means deliverance from the burden of Mosaic observance.

· Rest means the freedom of worship according to the gospel.

· Rest means the rest that God Himself enjoys.


Because you add in Hebrew 4:11 as another support for your theory you suggest we labor for the rest. And it's struggling work we must do, you suggest. I really think you might be careful here on what kind of work this really is, your self-pleasing-outer-man work, or your inner man reliance in faith on the Spirit of God (as the spiritual work) in Christ as you deny the world and your flesh in the end. Granted in the flesh we work for God although it is Spirit directed and Spirit led that counted as true faith for the cause of 'the rest.'

And you misapply Romans 11:20-22 as it applied to a class of believers as in a tribe or even nation not as an individual person. It was a warning to all believers as a group in the world. Again the unbelief you entertain here is for an impossible faith one can never have in the flesh.

Again the use of the term 'fear' here is a type of high regard and reverence for God, not a fear of being zapped by a bolt of lightening from God for disobedience or a slip. My God is not one I have to fear like one in prison ready to meet his make by being executed.

Gal 3:3 is your other support for the same impossible faith where you think that there are many believers like those of Gal 3:3, using human reasoning and self-effort to supplement their spiritual walk...actually I'm getting confused with your line of reasoning and support for your theory here.

Paul's point is that if the Spirit came when they believed, why would they think they needed to start following the law to be acceptable to God?

Paul queries and asks them that if they began in the power of God's Spirit, do they think they will be perfected by their own human efforts, of the flesh to live according to the law? God forbid!

So you are insinuating that believers are like these in Gal 3:3..another pessimistic view of believers I guess. A common thread in your plot to make your theory viable and plausible and to stand front and center.

And saying we go to Christ with what the Spirit of God has given us (GRACE) to get the full measure grace is grossly misplaced and an illogical uncompleted thought.

We work with the Spirit of God, (who is not a crumb of, or the initial sampling of grace as you suggest) and not Christ for anything, although we do through Christ, we pray in his spirit within us as we grow as him. And then the grace we received at rebirth is the entire grace as used and defined in scripture, for our only kind of walk God desires. We DO NOT GO anywhere anyone in the spiritual world as if we count as something or count in the realm of God and his Kingdom. I would say this is borderline blasphemy to ask for your so-called fullness of grace, so you can go higher in a walk that you think you can achieve and need to have an impossible faith in the belief you can actually walk as Christ did on earth. He gave you all the grace for salvation you need in the flesh if you are truly reborn.

And you say with this impossible faith we can then abide in him. This is totally false. We live and walk in the Spirit and we become more like him not exactly as he is....to abide in him. That is why we need to cling to him.

And the remainder of your scriptural support in your video is superfluous and does not add anything more as unique only for your theory. However it does apply to my current walk in Christ and not for your higher impossible one that is not humanly possible as your theory dictates.


You preach an abstract and ridiculous new religious form of salvation theory that is not scriptural where by your theory, if you really truly were unbiased, would find that no one can actually abide in Christ or even live in the Kingdom.

The biggest flaw in your entire theory amongst others is that you really believe you can be Christ in spirit, whilst in the flesh because you can attain his same spiritual walk!! You see if you have his same identical spirit and lose your own with no human spirit, then it is possible, and that isn't happening here on earth in the flesh.

Do you see what you have created here? A true preacher you are not Epi...

 

[Brakelite]

An owl among the crows?

I agree in large part with what you've said here.

You are only seeing righteousness through indoctrinated eyes, however. ALL our claims to righteousness are filthy rags. The truly righteous see themselves as mere sinners. A righteous person doesn't claim to be righteous. So that leaves out the crows here. I don't think many take Jesus' words seriously...certainly not the ones who attack my faithfulness to the Lord as being from the devil. These Pharisees who claim to be righteous think they are like the Publican...rather than the Pharisee. But a Pharisee will always look to be the better one...claiming all the good sounding verses for themselves...not at all like the Publican.

I agree Epi, we are all sinners, but where sin abounds, grace does much more abound. And the good that we do is due to that very same grace, and we remain nothing more than unworthy servants. I don't know about you or others here, but as far as I'm concerned the closer I get to Jesus, the more aware I become of my failings, my shortcomings, and my fallen human state. The good news is I also become more aware that without Him I can do nothing... And with Him I can do all things.

 

[Brakelite]

Wow, the two opposing protagonists in this thread both agreeing with me. If only we could recognize the middle ground in other debates which can at times rankle the emotions. Especially in the eschatological threads. I know there are some wise heads who deliberately stay away from those topics because of the heat that inevitably rises, and sadly I think they may have much to offer.

 

[quietthinker]

An owl among the crows?

I agree in large part with what you've said here.

You are only seeing righteousness through indoctrinated eyes, however. ALL our claims to righteousness are filthy rags. The truly righteous see themselves as mere sinners. A righteous person doesn't claim to be righteous. So that leaves out the crows here. I don't think many take Jesus' words seriously...certainly not the ones who attack my faithfulness to the Lord as being from the devil. These Pharisees who claim to be righteous think they are like the Publican...rather than the Pharisee. But a Pharisee will always look to be the better one...claiming all the good sounding verses for themselves...not at all like the Publican.

If the transgression of the law is sin why does Jesus define it as not believing in him?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

How do you tell a person they have the book upside down, even back to front when they firmly believe they have it the right way up?

I don’t know. But by examining the actual phenomenon of babies wanting to act like they can read or trying to imitate their fathers movements at the dinner table, and knowing that even the parent/child relationship, being something God made that is patterned after Him and after the pattern in heaven, can give me understanding about God and show His glory and hopefully maybe give me clues about the answer to your question.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Wow, the two opposing protagonists in this thread both agreeing with me. If only we could recognize the middle ground in other debates which can at times rankle the emotions. Especially in the eschatological threads. I know there are some wise heads who deliberately stay away from those topics because of the heat that inevitably rises, and sadly I think they may have much to offer.

Hmm…who are the two opposing protagonists of the thread? Obviously Epi is one.
If you meant me, I do not oppose Epi. At all.

 

[Enoch111]

You are only seeing righteousness through indoctrinated eyes, however. ALL our claims to righteousness are filthy rags. The truly righteous see themselves as mere sinners. A righteous person doesn't claim to be righteous.

More dangerous spiritual nonsense from Episkopos.

1 "You are only seeing righteousness through indoctrinated eyes" -- this false teacher thinks that everyone else is deceived through "indoctrination". In other words most Christians are in a cult and have been brainwashed, but Guru Episkopos is in the rarified atmosphere of Mount Everest. This is BALONEY #1.

2. "ALL our claims to righteousness are filthy rags". Since this term ("filthy rags") applies only to those who seek to establish their own righteousness by themselves, apart from Christ, this is a lie of the devil. And this is BALONEY #2. God IMPUTES righteousness to the one who believes, and then the Holy Spirit enables Christians to be righteous. See Romans 4 and other Scriptures.

3."The truly righteous see themselves as mere sinners." This is lie #3, and BALONEY #3. God calls His children "saints" (holy ones) not sinners. So children of God are not sinners, but saints, kings and priests, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. Every time Paul opens an epistle he greets THE SAINTS which are in Christ Jesus.

4. "A righteous person doesn't claim to be righteous." This is BALONEY #4. Paul consistently claimed to be righteous, because he was in fact righteous. So it would be dishonest for a righteous person not to claim to be righteous. In any event every genuine Christian can say " I am clothed with the righteousness of Christ because I have received him as my Lord and Savior".

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Rev 19:7,8) What is this "fine linen" other than the robe of the IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS of Christ on all the saints? Therefore all the children of God can say: I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels. (Isa 61:10)

In view of all this Episkopos should retract all his foolish assertions, and get back on track. He needs to repent of his false doctrines.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

More dangerous spiritual nonsense from Episkopos.

1 "You are only seeing righteousness through indoctrinated eyes" -- this false teacher thinks that everyone else is deceived through "indoctrination". In other words most Christians are in a cult and have been brainwashed, but Guru Episkopos is in the rarified atmosphere of Mount Everest. This is BALONEY #1.

2. "ALL our claims to righteousness are filthy rags". Since this term ("filthy rags") applies only to those who seek to establish their own righteousness by themselves, apart from Christ, this is a lie of the devil. And this is BALONEY #2. God IMPUTES righteousness to the one who believes, and then the Holy Spirit enables Christians to be righteous. See Romans 4 and other Scriptures.

3."The truly righteous see themselves as mere sinners." This is lie #3, and BALONEY #3. God calls His children "saints" (holy ones) not sinners. So children of God are not sinners, but saints, kings and priests, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. Every time Paul opens an epistle he greets THE SAINTS which are in Christ Jesus.

4. "A righteous person doesn't claim to be righteous." This is BALONEY #4. Paul consistently claimed to be righteous, because he was in fact righteous. So it would be dishonest for a righteous person not to claim to be righteous. In any event every genuine Christian can say " I am clothed with the righteousness of Christ because I have received him as my Lord and Savior".

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Rev 19:7,8) What is this "fine linen" other than the robe of the IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS of Christ on all the saints? Therefore all the children of God can say: I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels. (Isa 61:10)

In view of all this Episkopos should retract all his foolish assertions, and get back on track. He needs to repent of his false doctrines.

Making all that baloney surely got you hungry. Can someone get Enoch some mustard and bread?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

If the transgression of the law is sin why does Jesus define it as not believing in him?

Are you referring to whatever is not of trust/belief is sin?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Just caught a headline about a second train derailment in Ohio with hazmat crews sent out. Hope it’s not another hazmat situation and they’re just being overly cautious until sure.

 

[Waiting on him]

Being born again does not mean sinless perfection of the flesh. That comes after we receive our glorified bodies.

Unless sin is defined in this verse as practicing Judaism?

 

[quietthinker]

Are you referring to whatever is not of trust/belief is sin?

John 6:5-11 reads like this,

'5“But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Given that all are transgressors of the Law and subsequently sinners and any who claim they are not loose credibility....where do we go? Some deny that the Law is no longer applicable thus absolving them in some fashion, at least in their own minds, to disregard it or minimise it....but here, in these texts above Jesus redefines all three (sin, righteousness and judgement) contrary or other to what is generally understood.

My question relates to understanding his statement.....and its connection to new birth.

 

[Episkopos]

If the transgression of the law is sin why does Jesus define it as not believing in him?

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.


18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

 

[Episkopos]

and for the final review @Episkopos
-------------------------------

15 mins in and until the end............I now 'see' the core message and gross corruption of scripture and flaw in your salvation theory

You say we must have the faith that we believe we can attain the same level of spiritual walk as Christ did on earth then God comes in and takes us up to Zion (into the Kingdom) - into the higher walk.

Our faith is in God ...whom we look to in a broken state. He is the one who receives our sacrifice and translates us. Until we are translated the first time we have no idea what pleasing God looks like...nor what His grace and mercy are capable of. God decides whom He will have mercy on. Most people here on the thread have decided for themselves that God sees them as they see themselves. A whole lot of assumptions and presumptions going on. They have a religious imagination so I must be wrong.

But we do need to have a full measure of faith to attract God's attention.

The problem with the unbelief of people such as yourself, is that you rely on reading skills alone where it comes to God and His ways...which are insufficient to understand the power of the gospel.

 

[quietthinker]

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.


18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

would you like to elaborate Epi?

 

[Episkopos]

would you like to elaborate Epi?

Claiming to be justified by Christ while still living under the power of sin makes a person a transgressor. No different than a Pharisse...worse actually, since no Pharisee would have the gall to claim to be as righteous as God.