Christianity as a Closed System

[bbyrd009]

Oh…that he becomes all things for all men if he might win some? Is that it?

i take it as a call to stop with the religious verbiage, etc, the JW approach, and come to ppl where they are?

 

[bbyrd009]

This is very good! But I don’t understand the last paragraph.
To use your earlier words, zing, huh?

Who do the ten commandments apply to? Well, half of them came from Hammurabi, the king of Babylon…

these apply to anyone, iow, who is willing to accept to yoke

 

[bbyrd009]

Ourselves.

cmon, be honest
or at least give us a Quote

but pretty obv we are eventually going to get to “from eternal damnation,” right
or somesuch other religious nonsense, that will not stand up to any scrutiny

 

[bbyrd009]

19Though I am free of obligation to anyone, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), to win those under the law.
21To those without the law I became like one without the law (though I am not outside the law of God but am under the law of Christ), to win those without the law.
22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.
23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, so that I may share in its blessings

which when you are that far into surrender, pls help me out lol

 

[stunnedbygrace]

i take it as a call to stop with the religious verbiage, and come to ppl where they are?

He did it also with them when he said something like, I see you are religious and have written “to an unknown god -“ I know that God!

 

[Wrangler]

i take it as a call to stop with the religious verbiage, etc, the JW approach, and come to ppl where they are?

Good start. But love them too much not to transform them.

 

[bbyrd009]

Good start. But love them too much not to transform them.

ya, bc that worked so well with your kids right
pls just do post 83 k

 

[bbyrd009]

evabody wanna be inna driver’s seat, nobody wanna surrender
lol

 

[ButterflyJones]

Read what you wrote, didn't help.
If anyone is predestined for life, the rest are predestined for death.

Precisely so. It's in scripture throughout.

 

[Aunty Jane]

man, im sure i used to search it that way too, "when in Rome," but now i get led to Acts 22, which isnt it
ill recall a phrase eventually, but its basically Paul exhorting believers to do as the locals do, and use locals' speech, etc, in order to "win them over" i think it is...dang, still not searching lol

Is this the one?...1 Cor 9:19-23...
"For though I am free from all people, I have made myself the slave to all, so that I may gain as many people as possible. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew in order to gain Jews; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, in order to gain those under law. 21 To those without law I became as without law, although I am not without law toward God but under law toward Christ, in order to gain those without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, in order to gain the weak. I have become all things to people of all sorts, so that I might by all possible means save some. 23 But I do all things for the sake of the good news, in order to share it with others."

 

[MatthewG]

This is an extension of a previous topic.

Theistic Agnosticism - The honesty to admit we don't know everything

This term came up this morning in a discussion over coffee. I thought it worth discussing further. Being raised in the church, I was held in a bubble of "we have all the answers." Now that I am an adult, I realize the reason for that. We DIDN'T have all the questions. I know, I know... (who...

www.christianityboard.com

As I have said often, "I was raised Protestant evangelical." --- A closed system.
Which had an odd antithetical twist. You can't DO evangelism without talking to the "lost". (those outside the closed system)
And only mature evangelicals were even allowed to do it, for fear you might be talked out of the system.

Evangelism was a "required" activity that involved talking AT the "lost", not talking WITH the "lost".
People became projects. And if the "project" seemed like a waste of time,
you could "shake the dust off your feet" and absolve yourself of any responsibility toward them.
(their blood not being on your hands)

In preparation for talking at the "lost" projects, we were armed with Christian Apologetics. (counter-arguments)
You were bound to encounter resistance to the "message" from the closed system.
The "success" of the evangelist depended on the strength of their counter-arguments.

Much more to say about this. Everyone and everything outside the closed system was held in suspicion.
Which required negative opinions about all of those things, so as to assure keeping a safe distance.

I was wondering, how many others have had similar experiences with church, or Christianity in general?

Or...

Thoughts from those who would defend Christianity, or a church, as a closed system. Seeing value in it.

Hello Steven,

Use to when apologetics would come about, such as for an example “Chick tracts”; from what is understood is that apologetics is a system that is used to answer questions to best of one’s ability. What people say, doesn’t always mean it is true. There are some things that are understandable but also things that may not be understood too.

From what has been taught to me, is that the Bible should be read, and spoken as you read to hear it, which increases one’s faith. There is a very important thing a person also should consider is; the history and context of the surrounding period of time in perhaps a book of the Bible had been written, even what type of book, like proverbs, job, and Ecclesiastes one may be reading.

To go through the Bible, running over it like a comb and taking in all what the Bible has to offer as far as information which opens upon itself if one desires and seeks after God in faith. Which is a choice one as to make, it’s very rewarding to get to know God and his Son, and also about the old prophets, and times of old, because there is a lot a person can learn - and hopefully God guides by the spirit in which is available to anyone who is a child of God who believe in the Gospel of Christ, which the power of God unto salvation.

That leads to freedom which truth sets one free, to learn and grow in love for God and others.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@St. SteVen I believe that your question is answered by history......when have God's worshippers NOT been exclusive and a closed system?

The Israelites, even in Egypt were kept separate, and after their release they were to receive God's Laws, which they were bound to obey from birth. God did not give his laws to any other people. Those who wanted to serve the one God of Israel, had to become "Jews" in practice before they were accepted as brethren. But they could not hold sacred office such as priests because this was exclusive to the Levites. God dictated their worship in every detail. They were not to introduce anything else, or to add to what God had commanded them...a closed system.

Jesus castigated the Pharisees because he said....

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in. . . .
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves."

There it is....one had to be "Jewish" by conversion in order to become a "Proselyte"....that meant coming under Jewish law the same as Israel was, but by their own choice, not by birth....again indicating a closed system.

Those who opposed Jesus, opposed his Father, and so he said "Gehenna" awaited them. This was no burning "hell" however because the ancient Jews never believed in life after death. There was no immortal soul ever mentioned in their scripture and they had the writings of the Hebrew scriptures to inform them that God's plan for the future was all about resurrection, not continuing life in spirit form whilst everyone on earth was still making up their minds about worship.

The Christians were likewise exclusive as far as their beliefs were concerned...all had to adhere to one truth which was taught by Jesus and those he trained to continue on in his absence. There was to be no divisions and no disagreements among them. (1 Cor 1:10) God's spirit would unify them. It was also a closed system. But as Jesus warned, the same enemy who corrupted the Jews, would also corrupt Christianity. History tells the sad and sorry tale of how that happened....and why we are seeing a very different "Christianity" to what Jesus and his apostles began almost 2000 years ago.

When Jesus comes to judge the world, they don't all get a free pass based on Jesus' sacrifice, because he did not die for the unworthy, the unbelievers, or those who wanted to use their faith to justify or excuse wrongdoing.....only those who lived their faith...not just those who merely talked about it....would qualify for life. There are only two categories of human beings on this planet at the harvest time....(which is now looming)..."sheep and goats". The "sheep" live....the "goats" are dispatched into everlasting death. (Matt 25:31-34, 41)

Again, the apostle Peter said.....
"Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, their final state has become worse for them than the first. 21 It would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it to turn away from the holy commandment they had received. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”

So the "first state" mentioned here, was the state of being willfully ignorant.....not wanting to know about salvation through Jesus.
But God hates hypocrisy more than he hates ignorant complacency, and so he views those who know, and yet do not obey his son, as worse than those who don't know because they don't want to.
Hebrews 6:4-6...
"For as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit 5 and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, 6 but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame."

I cannot see the Bible as endorsing anything but a closed and exclusive system of worship that was to remain pure despite the corruption that Jesus foretold. The "wheat" were always in the world, but overshadowed by the "weeds" who took mankind into captivity as Israel had been taken into exile in ancient Babylon. The faithful did not adopt the ways of Babylon despite their 70 year sentence. Upon their release, God took them back to their homeland, re-established his worship and rebuilt his Temple, giving us types and shadows of what was to come.

In this "time of the end", God was going to 'cleanse, purify and refine' his worshippers (Daniel 12:4, 9-10) so that they could carry out the greatest preaching campaign the world has ever seen.....this is the only testimony that people will get....and it was to be global....taken out to "the entire inhabited earth" he said....."And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."......(Matt 24:14)

Because that "witness" has been given all throughout these last days, and "the end" is now in sight as we see the world systems collapsing, the judgment is not too far off. (Matt 7:21-23) Who will stand and who will fall? Jesus will let us all know.

 

[David in NJ]

This is an extension of a previous topic.

Theistic Agnosticism - The honesty to admit we don't know everything

This term came up this morning in a discussion over coffee. I thought it worth discussing further. Being raised in the church, I was held in a bubble of "we have all the answers." Now that I am an adult, I realize the reason for that. We DIDN'T have all the questions. I know, I know... (who...

www.christianityboard.com

As I have said often, "I was raised Protestant evangelical." --- A closed system.
Which had an odd antithetical twist. You can't DO evangelism without talking to the "lost". (those outside the closed system)
And only mature evangelicals were even allowed to do it, for fear you might be talked out of the system.

Evangelism was a "required" activity that involved talking AT the "lost", not talking WITH the "lost".
People became projects. And if the "project" seemed like a waste of time,
you could "shake the dust off your feet" and absolve yourself of any responsibility toward them.
(their blood not being on your hands)

In preparation for talking at the "lost" projects, we were armed with Christian Apologetics. (counter-arguments)
You were bound to encounter resistance to the "message" from the closed system.
The "success" of the evangelist depended on the strength of their counter-arguments.

Much more to say about this. Everyone and everything outside the closed system was held in suspicion.
Which required negative opinions about all of those things, so as to assure keeping a safe distance.

I was wondering, how many others have had similar experiences with church, or Christianity in general?

Or...

Thoughts from those who would defend Christianity, or a church, as a closed system. Seeing value in it.

i SEE a Open Door

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Of course satan has many open doors = Matthew 4:8
Again, the devil took Jesus up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

Competition for the world and all the pleasure in it goes to satan, whereas Salvation remains with God.

Nevertheless the Door remains Open, for now, and the Kingdom of God continues to Call and Receive Collect Calls.

And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.
Joel 2:32

 

[St. SteVen]

19Though I am free of obligation to anyone, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), to win those under the law.
21To those without the law I became like one without the law (though I am not outside the law of God but am under the law of Christ), to win those without the law.
22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.
23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, so that I may share in its blessings

Ah, yes. "All things to all people." Good one, Thanks.
Very interesting what that scripture says about the law(s).
What do you make of that?

1 Corinthians 9:19-23
19Though I am free of obligation to anyone, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), to win those under the law.
21To those without the law I became like one without the law (though I am not outside the law of God but am under the law of Christ), to win those without the law.
22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.
23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, so that I may share in its blessings

 

[St. SteVen]

@St. SteVen I believe that your question is answered by history......when have God's worshippers NOT been exclusive and a closed system?

I'm not opposed to proper boundaries. But I am opposed to a closed system ruled by fear.
Can you see the difference? (of course you can)

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

If anyone is predestined for salvation, then everyone else is predestined for "damnation".

You wouldn’t know this but you suddenly sound like bbyrd here.

We'll take that as a compliment. - LOL

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

Read what you wrote, didn't help.
If anyone is predestined for life, the rest are predestined for death.

Precisely so. It's in scripture throughout.

What does that tell us about God?

 

[St. SteVen]

To go through the Bible, running over it like a comb and taking in all what the Bible has to offer as far as information which opens upon itself if one desires and seeks after God in faith.

Thanks for your reply.
Yes; I encourage everyone to read the Bible cover-to-cover at least once.
I did this as a young man. Created my own study Bible with underlining, cross references, and notes written all over it.
I literally destroyed the book. The result is that scriptures come to mind all the time now. HUGE benefit.

 

[St. SteVen]

i SEE a Open Door

I'm not talking about a church with closed doors.
I'm talking about a church with hands over their ears yelling at the world;
"You're talking but we're not listening to you. Na, na, na, na, ..." - LOL

 

[bbyrd009]

Very interesting what that scripture says about the law(s).
What do you make of that?

well, ive always been a scofflaw, so i have to be careful there i guess
but my understanding of the inadequacy of the law is, a school zone might be 20 mph, but i might go 10 or even 0 if some little kid falls into the street. Which surely everyone else would too, im just meaning as an explanation of the inadequacy of law

which imo despite the vehement protestations to the contrary most Christians are firmly, completely under, as can be discerned by their speech (and one or two other, that ill keep to myself for now) patterns, “prove it! its a fact, the truth is,” etc. But tbh i have not looked for the Body of Christ among “believers” for a long time now.

nice op btw