Reasons Jews Reject Jesus

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Mr E

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2022
3,639
2,609
113
San Diego
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I thought an excellent topic for Apologetics is how to counter the reason the Jews reject Jesus. Form SIX REASONS WHY JEWS DON'T BELIEVE IN JESUS:
Reason #1 – The Messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David AND King Solomon – Jesus did not qualify.​
Reason #2 – Ingathering of the Jewish Exiles – Jesus did not do this.​
Reason #3– Rebuilding of the Holy Temple – Jesus failed to achieve this.​
Reason #4– Worldwide Reign of Peace – Jesus did not accomplish this.​
Reason #5 – Observance of the Torah Embraced by All Jews – Jesus didn’t bring this about.​
Reason #6 – Universal Knowledge of G-d – Jesus clearly failed here also.​
I believe a bridge to fellowship begins by saying we can understand how they can look at it this way. However, there is another sense in which the story of Jesus qualifies as the true Jewish Messiah. Thoughts?

A terrific discussion.... or it could be if @Jim B could grow up or grow a pair.

I like your approach in that you are interested in first understanding the Jewish perspective. This is incredibly important. There is a Jewish apologist that I really enjoy listening to.... I've posted just one of his links below, but a great deal can be gained by watching and listening to this Rabbi take on the Christian/Evangelical understanding-- which he does head on.

Christians make a terrible error when they dismiss or ignore these voices, most of whom approach the subjects more openly and honestly than 'orthodox' Christian apologists are willing to do.

I'll see if I can dig up one of his vids specific to your topic in it's entirety, but you might like hearing him out on the Isaiah/virgin birth claim that most Christians cling to.... From the Jewish point of view-- it just doesn't make sense and stands indefensible.

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Wrangler and Adam

Adam

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2022
690
381
63
43
X
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
A terrific discussion.... or it could be if @Jim B could grow up or grow a pair.

I like your approach in that you are interested in first understanding the Jewish perspective. This is incredibly important. There is a Jewish apologist that I really enjoy listening to.... I've posted just one of his links below, but a great deal can be gained by watching and listening to this Rabbi take on the Christian/Evangelical understanding-- which he does head on.

Christians make a terrible error when they dismiss or ignore these voices, most of whom approach the subjects more openly and honestly than 'orthodox' Christian apologists are willing to do.

I'll see if I can dig up one of his vids specific to your topic in it's entirety, but you might like hearing him out on the Isaiah/virgin birth claim that most Christians cling to.... From the Jewish point of view-- it just doesn't make sense and stands indefensible.

The Tower of Babel is Mankind's religions. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism... each contain a brick of the tower. The capstone of the church is Christianity, but you can't build a tower with just the capstone. Indeed, Jesus warned us of wolves in sheep's clothing who would come after him and corrupt his teachings for political power.
 

Mr E

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2022
3,639
2,609
113
San Diego
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
<ignored>

More than three dozen identical posts promoting the identical lie.

Mensa called and they are wanting to refund your imaginary membership dues if you will stop pretending to be a member.

While you are at it.... please stop taking up space in these threads with childish and worthless posts.

If you want to ignore someone... JUST. DO. IT. -and shut up about it.

Let's call it a public service announcement.

 
  • Like
Reactions: Wrangler

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,611
4,885
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
I thought an excellent topic for Apologetics is how to counter the reason the Jews reject Jesus. Form SIX REASONS WHY JEWS DON'T BELIEVE IN JESUS:
Reason #1 – The Messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David AND King Solomon – Jesus did not qualify.​
Reason #2 – Ingathering of the Jewish Exiles – Jesus did not do this.​
Reason #3– Rebuilding of the Holy Temple – Jesus failed to achieve this.​
Reason #4– Worldwide Reign of Peace – Jesus did not accomplish this.​
Reason #5 – Observance of the Torah Embraced by All Jews – Jesus didn’t bring this about.​
Reason #6 – Universal Knowledge of G-d – Jesus clearly failed here also.​
I believe a bridge to fellowship begins by saying we can understand how they can look at it this way. However, there is another sense in which the story of Jesus qualifies as the true Jewish Messiah. Thoughts?
SIX REASONS WHY JEWS DON'T BELIEVE IN JESUS – or Why Jesus is Not the Jewish Messiah –with Julius Ciss.

Christian missionaries, like Jews for Jesus, profess that Jesus is the Jewish messiah.
Why has Judaism rejected this claim for 2,000 years?

The concept of the Messiah has its foundation in our Jewish Bible, the Tanach, which teaches that all of the following criteria must be fulfilled before any person can be acknowledged as the Messiah:

Reason #1 – The Messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David AND King Solomon – Jesus did not qualify.

The Messiah must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct descendant of King David & King Solomon (2 Samuel 7:12-14; 1 Chronicles 22:9-10). Genealogy in the Bible is only passed down from father to son (Numbers 1:1-18).

There is no evidence that Jesus really had this pedigree, and the Christian Bible actually claims that he did not have a “birth-father” from the tribe of Judah descending from King David and King Solomon (Matt. 1:18-20).

Reason #2 – Ingathering of the Jewish Exiles – Jesus did not do this.


When the Messiah is reigning as King of Israel, the Jews will be ingathered from their exile and will return to Israel, their homeland (Deut. 30:3; Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 30:3, 32:37; Ezekiel 11:17, 36:24).
This has clearly not yet happened and we still await its fulfillment.

Reason #3– Rebuilding of the Holy Temple – Jesus failed to achieve this.

The Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt (Isaiah 2:2-3, 56:6-7, 60:7, 66:20; Ezekiel 37:26–27; Malachi 3:4; Zech. 14:20-21).

The Temple was still standing in Jesus’ day. It was destroyed 38 years after Jesus’ crucifixion and it has not yet been rebuilt.

Reason #4– Worldwide Reign of Peace – Jesus did not accomplish this.

There will be universal disarmament and worldwide peace with a complete end to war (Micah 4:1-4; Hoseah 2:20; Isaiah 2:1-4, 60:18).

Wars have increased dramatically in the world since the start of Christianity.

Reason #5 – Observance of the Torah Embraced by All Jews – Jesus didn’t bring this about.

The Messiah will reign as King at a time when all the Jewish people will observe G-d’s commandments (Ezekiel 37:24; Deut. 30:8,10; Jeremiah 31:32; Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:26-27).

Jesus never ruled as King, nor have all Jews embraced the commandments of G-d’s Torah.

Reason #6 – Universal Knowledge of G-d – Jesus clearly failed here also.

The Messiah will rule at a time when all the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve the one true G-d (Zechariah 3:9, 8:23,14:9,16; Isaiah 45:23, 66:23; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 38:23; Psalm 86:9; Zeph. 3:9).

This, as well, has not yet taken place and we await its fulfillment.

No matter how many unusual & miraculous things Jesus seems to accomplish in the New Testament, he doesn't fulfill even one of the 6 criteria by which the Nation of Israel can recognize him as the true Jewish Messiah.


If you are interested, visit Jews for Judaism, and Jews for Jesus
But you need to be careful, these rabbis are very convincing and I know of struggling Christians who have embraced Judaism, observing the 7 Noahide mitzvot--recanting Yeshua.

Another site is One for Israel--Messianic.
Or. Listen to this, no Christian scholar ever won a debate against Orthodox Judaism.


 
Last edited:

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
2,530
3,568
113
66
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Well, now you have met Jew -- virtually. As I have said earlier, Jesus, when on Earth, was a Jew, as were all His disciples, the original apostles, and all the members of the early church. The entire Bible was written by Jews, with the sole exception of Luke-Acts.
Shalom....peace to you, because no one is saying otherwise.

I don't understand what you're writing about when you write "How it is easy to focus on temporal things to where you become blind to Spiritual things. How is that anti-semitism? How is anti-semitism to suggest that this is very much alive today in regards to rejection of Christ?" Many, many people, Jews and non-Jews (Gentiles), have rejected Christ. It is anti-Semitic to limit Jesus' rejection to Jews only!
She wasn't limiting the rejection of Jesus to Jews in her post. All flesh is the same and it's desire to feed itself and focus on earthly things instead of heavenly is the same for all people. The things she is saying apply to many Gentiles in the church today, unfortunately. Nothing new under the sun...flesh is flesh...speaking of the flesh nature, which as believers we need to put under our/His feet regardless of our ethnicity.
Your comment about the Pharisees' short-sightedness is nonsense. The Pharisees were a hyper-legalistic sect of Judaism and failed to recognize the Messiah. That is why I criticize them, not because they were Jews. I repeat: Jesus, when on Earth, was a Jew, as were all His disciples, the original apostles, and all the members of the early church.
She was talking about Christians with Phariseeical attitudes. The things written concerning Israel were written OUR admonishment, ie, the church, one new man made of Jews and Gentiles.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eternally Grateful

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
2,530
3,568
113
66
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
to be honest. I am not sure what you were trying to achieve.. I do not think any of the 6 had was part of the issue.. the issue was unbelief.. Jesus himself said, You do not see because you do not believe (john 6)
Yes...intellectual objections are just that, objections of the natural mind which can't perceive the things of the Spirit. And usually the natural intellect is just protecting what the fallen nature of the heart desires. So it boils down to the heart. Though if we can address some of the intellectual objections, it sometimes may help a person to at least open their heart a little bit and be willing to consider. Ultimately it is the Spirit that can bypass intellectual objections and go directly to the person's heart and turn it, with the mind following after. ( I find the heart can receive something, and then it can take time for the mind to catch up, lol.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eternally Grateful

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,611
4,885
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Yes...intellectual objections are just that, objections of the natural mind which can't perceive the things of the Spirit. And usually the natural intellect is just protecting what the fallen nature of the heart desires. So it boils down to the heart. Though if we can address some of the intellectual objections, it sometimes may help a person to at least open their heart a little bit and be willing to consider. Ultimately it is the Spirit that can bypass intellectual objections and go directly to the person's heart and turn it, with the mind following after. ( I find the heart can receive something, and then it can take time for the mind to catch up, lol.)

I hear you @Lizbeth --if you have time, listen to this--Christianity, Christ and our Bibles is being debunked as "fairy tales"--I have listened to these debates for years, Scobac, Tovia Singer and others and it doesn't help to read the Jewish Study Bible or the Chumash and ancient rabbiniccal writings online, luring unstable Christians in/through the gate/s of Judaism.

J.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lizbeth

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,611
4,885
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Well, that reinforces the validity of the Jews rejecting Jesus because the descent is supposed to be biological and not specious.

How would you respond to this?

Picture
Christianity teaches that Jesus' death and resurrection atoned for the sins of all mankind. G-d disagrees.


Micah, chapter 6:

With what shall I come before the Lord, bow before the Most High G-d? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves? Will the L-rd be pleased with thousands of rams, with myriad streams of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has told you, O man, what is good, and what the L-rd demands of you; but to do justice, to love loving-kindness, and to walk discreetly with your G-d. The voice of the L-rd calls out to the city, and the wisdom of the Torah, the one who sees Your name; hearken to the staff and Who appointed it.

Let's repeat -- G-d does NOT want human sacrifice. He does not want the firstborn to be sacrificed for the sins of anyone.

G-d wants, no G-d DEMANDS, people who are good, just, kind and those who walk with Him knowing that He would never demand the murder of a human being to atone for the sins of anyone. The whole idea of Christianity's dying god "for their sins" is an insult to Him.

 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,553
5,100
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I like your approach in that you are interested in first understanding the Jewish perspective. This is incredibly important.
Thank you. This thread has, IMO, revealed the great spiritual immaturity of many who posted in it. Rather than make a Christian apology, they resort to bashing the unbelieving Jews.

In all effective evangelism, one must meet people where they are. This is the foundation of relationship. No one is going to convert because of a brilliant intellectual argument. Conversion happens in the context of personal relationship. It is only when some modicum of trust is established do people share where they are.

If you noticed, I have not even attempted to answer the OP's question. In large part because of the displayed spiritual immaturity. It would be throwing pearls before swine. There are 6 reasons the Jews reject Jesus. Not one reason but half a dozen. Christian apologists have to have a cogent response to these well thought out objections IF they hope to effectively evangelize to this group.

The funny thing about this Apologetics forum is no one is required to post here. I wonder if Jim B gets that? If you don't want to make a defense against the reasons, feel free to spend your life doing other things. Geesh!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mr E and RLT63

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,611
4,885
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Isa 7:14 - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Now insert your interpretation- Therefore the Lord shall give you a sign; Behold a young woman shall conceive and bear a son. Young women conceive and bear children every day. What kind of sign is that?
Notice this...

Therefore Hashem Himself shall give you an ot (sign); Hinei, HaAlmah (the unmarried young virgin) shall conceive, and bear Ben, and shall call Shmo Immanu El (G-d is with us)


Isa 7:14 ThereforeH3651 Adv lā·ḵên לָ֠כֵן will giveH5414 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yit·tên יִתֵּ֨ן the LordH136 N-proper-ms ’ă·ḏō·nāy אֲדֹנָ֥י HeH1931 Pro-3ms hū ה֛וּא youH0 Prep+2mp lā·ḵem לָכֶ֖ם a sign;H226 N-cs ’ō·wṯ א֑וֹת behold,H2009 Interjection hin·nêh הִנֵּ֣ה the virginH5959 Art+N-fs hā·‘al·māh הָעַלְמָ֗ה N1 shall become pregnantH2030 Adj-fs hā·rāh הָרָה֙ and bearH3205 H8802 Conj-w+V-Qal-Prtcpl-fs wə·yō·le·ḏeṯ וְיֹלֶ֣דֶת a Son,H1121 N-ms bên בֵּ֔ן and shall callH7121 H8804 Conj-w+V-Qal-ConjPerf-3fs wə·qā·rāṯ וְקָרָ֥את His nameH8034 N-msc+3ms šə·mōw שְׁמ֖וֹ -H6005 No-morph ‘im·mā·nū עִמָּ֥נוּ Immanuel.H6005 N-proper-ms ’êl אֵֽל׃ N2


Not just any kind of Almah, but THE--Definite Article--Almah--Clearly, irrefutable, to Mary.............

A virgin; strictly and properly so called. The Jews, that they may obscure this plain text, and weaken this proof of the truth of Christian religion, pretend that this Hebrew word signifies a young woman, and not a virgin. But this corrupt translation is easily confuted,

1. Because this word constantly signifies a virgin in all other places of Scripture where it is used, which are Gen_24:43, compared with Isa_7:16 Exo_2:8 Psa_68:25 Son_1:3 6:8; to which may be added Pro_30:19,........

The way of a man with a maid, or a virgin: for though it be supposed that he did design and desire to corrupt her, and afterwards did so; yet she may well be called a virgin, partly because he found her a virgin, and partly because she seemed and pretended to others to be such, which made her more careful to use all possible arts to preserve her reputation, and so made the discovery of her impure conversation with the man more difficult, whereas the filthy practices of common harlots are easily and vulgarly known.
2. From the scope of this place, which is to confirm their faith by a strange and prodigious sign, which surely could not be not a young woman should conceive a child, but that a virgin should conceive, &c.

Bear a Son; or rather, bring forth, as it is rendered, Mat_1:23, and as this Hebrew word is used, Gen_16:11 17:19 Jud_13:5.

And shall call; the virgin, last mentioned, shall call; which is added as a further evidence of her virginity, and that this Son had no human father, because the right of naming the child (which, being a sign of dominion, is primarily in the husband, and in the wife only by his consent or permission, as is evident from Gen_5:29 35:18 Luk_1:60,63, and many other places of Scripture) is wholly appropriated to her.
Immanuel; which signifies, God with us; God dwelling among us, in our nature, Joh_1:14, God and man meeting in one person, and being a Mediator between God and men. For the design of these words is not so much to relate the name by which Christ should commonly be called, as to describe his nature and office; as we read that his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, &c., Isa_9:6, and that this is said to be his (the Messiah’s) name whereby he shall be called, The Lord our Righteousness, Jer_23:6, although he be never called by these names in any other place of the Old or New Testament; but the meaning of these places is, He shall be wonderful, and our Counsellor, &c., and our Righteousness; for to be called is oft put for to be, as Isa_1:26 4:3, &c.
  1. Poole

    Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son; this is not to be understood of Hezekiah, the son of Ahaz, by his wife, as some Jewish writers interpret it; which interpretation Jarchi refutes, by observing that Hezekiah was nine years old when his father began to reign, and this being, as he says, the fourth year of his reign, he must be at this time thirteen years of age; in like manner, Aben Ezra and Kimchi object to it; and besides, his mother could not be called a "virgin": and for the same reason it cannot be understood of any other son of his either by his wife, as Kimchi thinks, or by some young woman; moreover, no other son of his was ever lord of Judea, as this Immanuel is represented to be, in Isa_8:8 nor can it be interpreted of Isaiah's wife and son, as Aben Ezra and Jarchi think; since the prophet could never call her a "virgin", who had bore him children, one of which was now with him; nor indeed a "young woman", but rather "the prophetess", as in Isa_8:3 nor was any son of his king of Judah, as this appears to be, in the place before cited: but the Messiah is here meant, who was to be born of a pure virgin; as the word here used signifies in all places where it is mentioned, as Gen_24:43 and even in Pro_30:19 which is the instance the Jews give of the word being used of a woman corrupted; since it does not appear that the maid and the adulterous woman are one and the same person; and if they were, she might, though vitiated, be called a maid or virgin, from her own profession of herself, or as she appeared to others who knew her not, or as she was antecedent to her defilement; which is no unusual thing in Scripture, see Deu_22:28 to which may be added, that not only the Evangelist Matthew renders the word by παρθενος, "a virgin"; but the Septuagint interpreters, who were Jews, so rendered the word hundreds of years before him; and best agrees with the Hebrew word, which comes from the root עלם, which signifies to "hide" or "cover"; virgins being covered and unknown to men; and in the eastern country were usually kept recluse, and were shut up from the public company and conversation of men: and now this was the sign that was to be given, and a miraculous one it was, that the Messiah should be born of a pure and incorrupt virgin; and therefore a "behold" is prefixed to it, as a note of admiration; and what else could be this sign or wonder? not surely that a young married woman, either Ahaz's or Isaiah's wife, should be with child, which is nothing surprising, and of which there are repeated instances every day; nor was it that the young woman was unfit for conception at the time of the prophecy, which was the fancy of some, as Jarchi reports, since no such intimation is given either in the text or context; nor did it lie in this, that it was a male child, and not a female, which was predicted, as R. Saadiah Gaon, in Aben Ezra, would have it; for the sign or wonder does not lie in the truth of the prophet's prediction, but in the greatness of the thing predicted; besides, the verification of this would not have given the prophet much credit, nor Ahaz and the house of David much comfort, since this might have been ascribed rather to a happy conjecture than to a spirit of prophecy; much less can the wonder be, that this child should eat butter and honey, as soon as it was born, as Aben Ezra and Kimchi suggest; since nothing is more natural to, and common with young children, than to take down any kind of liquids which are sweet and pleasant.
    Gill.

This passage is vehemently denied by none other than....ready?

I have yet to witness a Christian scholar win a debate with any Orthodox rabbi....and yet we have so many "heated" disagreements among Christians, we cannot seem to come into agreement on ANY passage of the Tanach/Torah/New Covenant.

Shalom
J.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: RLT63

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,725
7,962
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I thought an excellent topic for Apologetics is how to counter the reason the Jews reject Jesus. Form SIX REASONS WHY JEWS DON'T BELIEVE IN JESUS:
Reason #1 – The Messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David AND King Solomon – Jesus did not qualify.​
Reason #2 – Ingathering of the Jewish Exiles – Jesus did not do this.​
Reason #3– Rebuilding of the Holy Temple – Jesus failed to achieve this.​
Reason #4– Worldwide Reign of Peace – Jesus did not accomplish this.​
Reason #5 – Observance of the Torah Embraced by All Jews – Jesus didn’t bring this about.​
Reason #6 – Universal Knowledge of G-d – Jesus clearly failed here also.​
I believe a bridge to fellowship begins by saying we can understand how they can look at it this way. However, there is another sense in which the story of Jesus qualifies as the true Jewish Messiah. Thoughts?
I’ve been thinking more about your topic. Admittedly your thread was the first time I had read the list. Where did it come from? What is left out of it? Who decides? Are some of my questions. For example if I asked you to meet me for dinner. I would NOT know how to recognize you. Not all. Not the first clue. You may give me some ways to recognize you. But because you narrow it down to a few distinct ways to recognize you. There would also be hundreds more that you don’t give me. then, do those that you don’t give me as ways to recognize you mean you lied or tried to trick me? Or that you gave a few distinctions? But no all…

That is what throws me about the list. It confines. Almost like “a law” of “ok, there is nothing else recognizable outside of these” …yet the woman with the issue of blood recognized something specific. I wonder what it was. The woman with the alabaster box recognized something specific. Was it only by the list? legion who had been in the caves cutting himself …I’m not sure he cared about list…but ran to fall before Jesus Christ asking for “help”. Or the crowds of the blind, the dumb, the paralyzed, the tormented pushing in to see Him. again, point is @Wrangler could give me ways to recognize him if we were to meet…but by no means would that eliminate that there are also countless other ways to recognize him. Same as the Word. We may give someone a list of comforting verses to us. Verses which we think reveal Christ. But they may read a verse we didn’t give and never thought of giving, yet that is the one where they recognize Christ.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Wrangler

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,553
5,100
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Admittedly your thread was the first time I had read the list. Where did it come from? What is left out of it?
I thought the same thing when I first read the list. There are very likely more than these 6 reasons.

In the end, it does not matter what is left out. These 6 reasons are on the table for discussion. The basic question to us all is:
A. Abandon the field. Let the 6 reasons stand unopposed to reject our lord and fail in our part of the Great Commission.​
B. Defend our lord on any and all grounds.​
The irony is I expected this thread to be far more academic. Posts like yours are a variant of, "we don't have to apologize for or defend Christ." I expected us to reason together, to develop defenses to the 6 reasons and as iron sharpens iron, fine tune our defense of our lord on these 6 reasons to the level of a work of art, a thing of beauty, 7 undeniable ways of defeating each specific objection to denying Christ, etc.

But alas. No one is even picking up the gauntlet. Option A, it is. :tearsofjoy:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mr E

Mr E

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2022
3,639
2,609
113
San Diego
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, that reinforces the validity of the Jews rejecting Jesus because the descent is supposed to be biological and not specious.

It is not a good defense.

Scripture doesn't say anywhere that John descended from Elijah. As far as Jesus goes, there are a couple of ways to tackle the proposed Problem #1 on your list. It won't be a comfortable conversation for most. I normally wouldn't engage in the discussion on any of these sorts of Forums, because of that. It isn't my desire to upset folks (believe it, or not) but the fact is, that Christians are the most disturbed of any group one might encounter because they hold to their beliefs in this regard so tightly, that it's almost impossible for them to let go. It's very hard for them, and I get that. There was a time when I would have defended those same beliefs, but once a person recognizes that they are indeed beliefs (and not hard facts) it's like lighting a candle in a dark room where folks have gathered. --Some will come toward the light and marvel at the things they can now see, but more-- many more people would rather snuff out the candle. That's why Jack has to be nimble and quick.

But hey... let's tackle it, shall we?

First -- the proposed problem: Jews properly say that Jesus has to be a direct descendant from the line of David, the tribe of Judah to qualify as the prophesied Messiah. Christians say that Joseph was not his father, and so he doesn't qualify.

It's very interesting to consider that it's Christians who would disqualify Jesus on this first point-- while Jews would not. Jews have no problem with the idea that Joseph was the father of Jesus-- it's not offensive to them in the least. It would be considered completely normal, natural, and nice. A betrothed couple-- a love story. The young girl becomes pregnant and while the Law gives him the absolute right to break off the relationship (divorce her) and even see her punished-- he chooses not to. He keeps it secret and accepts responsibility in the eyes of all others. Pretty good motivation to leave town and not come back for a few years.... (that happened).

But to Jews, the story- even if a lovely one, has no significance if Joseph was not really the father at all. None of it matters to them if Joseph wasn't the father, and particularly if (as Christians promote) there was no father at all. It's extremely problematic.

So how can such a problem be confronted? Christians typically have little, or no response. Or a very unsatisfactory, pocket-ready cover story to the effect of--- with God anything is possible.... While true-- it's a bail-out. An escape hatch at best and Jews view it as the path of intellectual midgets and cowards.

Are there better responses? There are. Do you really want to go down that sort of rabbit hole?
 

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,611
4,885
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
So how can such a problem be confronted? Christians typically have little, or no response. Or a very unsatisfactory, pocket-ready cover story to the effect of--- with God anything is possible.... While true-- it's a bail-out. An escape hatch at best and Jews view it as the path of intellectual midgets and cowards.
Sounds like this is how a rabbi would argue--Christians have little, or no response.

What is your response,--

To a betulah (virgin) given in erusin (betrothal, engagement) to an ish from the Beis Dovid named Yosef [ben Dovid], and the shem of the almah was Miryam.

Thanks
J.
 

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You seem to ignore the fact that most Atheists are former Christians, often having spent more time in honest study of the scriptures. It's why we often understand more than the self-professed Christians.
No, you only think that you understand more than Christians do, but that just demonstrates your delusion. Psychotics know they understand reality, but that just demonstrates their error.
 

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is not a good defense.

Scripture doesn't say anywhere that John descended from Elijah. As far as Jesus goes, there are a couple of ways to tackle the proposed Problem #1 on your list. It won't be a comfortable conversation for most. I normally wouldn't engage in the discussion on any of these sorts of Forums, because of that. It isn't my desire to upset folks (believe it, or not) but the fact is, that Christians are the most disturbed of any group one might encounter because they hold to their beliefs in this regard so tightly, that it's almost impossible for them to let go. It's very hard for them, and I get that. There was a time when I would have defended those same beliefs, but once a person recognizes that they are indeed beliefs (and not hard facts) it's like lighting a candle in a dark room where folks have gathered. --Some will come toward the light and marvel at the things they can now see, but more-- many more people would rather snuff out the candle. That's why Jack has to be nimble and quick.

But hey... let's tackle it, shall we?

First -- the proposed problem: Jews properly say that Jesus has to be a direct descendant from the line of David, the tribe of Judah to qualify as the prophesied Messiah. Christians say that Joseph was not his father, and so he doesn't qualify.

It's very interesting to consider that it's Christians who would disqualify Jesus on this first point-- while Jews would not. Jews have no problem with the idea that Joseph was the father of Jesus-- it's not offensive to them in the least. It would be considered completely normal, natural, and nice. A betrothed couple-- a love story. The young girl becomes pregnant and while the Law gives him the absolute right to break off the relationship (divorce her) and even see her punished-- he chooses not to. He keeps it secret and accepts responsibility in the eyes of all others. Pretty good motivation to leave town and not come back for a few years.... (that happened).

But to Jews, the story- even if a lovely one, has no significance if Joseph was not really the father at all. None of it matters to them if Joseph wasn't the father, and particularly if (as Christians promote) there was no father at all. It's extremely problematic.

So how can such a problem be confronted? Christians typically have little, or no response. Or a very unsatisfactory, pocket-ready cover story to the effect of--- with God anything is possible.... While true-- it's a bail-out. An escape hatch at best and Jews view it as the path of intellectual midgets and cowards.

Are there better responses? There are. Do you really want to go down that sort of rabbit hole?
"[Christians] are the most disturbed of any group one might encounter because they hold to their beliefs in this regard so tightly, that it's almost impossible for them to let go" is the pot calling the kettle black.
 

Ronald David Bruno

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2020
3,900
1,922
113
Southern
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I thought an excellent topic for Apologetics is how to counter the reason the Jews reject Jesus. Form SIX REASONS WHY JEWS DON'T BELIEVE IN JESUS:
Reason #1 – The Messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David AND King Solomon – Jesus did not qualify.​
Reason #2 – Ingathering of the Jewish Exiles – Jesus did not do this.​
Reason #3– Rebuilding of the Holy Temple – Jesus failed to achieve this.​
Reason #4– Worldwide Reign of Peace – Jesus did not accomplish this.​
Reason #5 – Observance of the Torah Embraced by All Jews – Jesus didn’t bring this about.​
Reason #6 – Universal Knowledge of G-d – Jesus clearly failed here also.​
I believe a bridge to fellowship begins by saying we can understand how they can look at it this way. However, there is another sense in which the story of Jesus qualifies as the true Jewish Messiah. Thoughts?
Whatever reasons they list are not true or just haven't been fulfilled yet. The main reason is they have been blinded and remain blind with the exception of a few trickling in here and there.

"I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew...
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works ...
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 Just as it is written:
God has given them a spirit of stupor,

Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,

To this very day.”
9 And David says:
Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them
.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
The Deliverer will come out of Zion,

And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,

When I take away their sins.
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all." Romans 11:1-2, 5-12, 15, 19, 20, 23-32



Matthew lists the geneology from Abraham to David to Joseph ( Jesus legal father).
Luke describes his generation back to Adam. However, Heli was Mary's biological father, even though Joseph was legally list as his son.

Luke 3:23 states: “And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.” Joseph was Heli's son-in-law, therefore listed in Luke as the son of Heli. Mary was Heli's blood daughter. Therefore, Jesus was in David's bloodline as well.

As for their reasons:
#1.The tribe of Judah settled in the area south of Jerusalem and became the most important and powerful tribe. David was from this tribe, therefore so was Jesus.
#2. Since 1948, Jesus has gathered the Jewish exiles that were scattered throughout the world for almost 19 centuries.
#3 The Old Temple became obsolete at Jesus death and then was destroyed later in 70 AD. But at Pentecost, a new spiritual Temple became available to all believers - within.
#4 Christians have entered into His peace. But worldwide Peace will come after the Great Tribulation - during the Millennial Kingdom
#5 Jesus observed the Law and fulfulled it.
#6 Christians have knowledge of the truth. Worldwide knowledge ia coming during the MK.