Sanctification is not a Process

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stunnedbygrace

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How dare he attack me like that!!! I will take my revenge!!
This is how you act. That is not how you are being treated. Your entire post so accurately describes yourself that it’s bizarre you can’t see yourself.
Just a few pages ago you were accusing another of being mad who was very, very calm in conversation and then you showed it was you who was mad. We saw it with our own eyes.

Woe to those who call darkness light and light darkness. If they didn’t say they could see they would have no sin. But since they say they can see their sin remains.
 
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Lizbeth

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What are the filthy rags then. Explain it to others.
Well, in a word, self-righteousness. That is the righteousness that the world walks in, to be seen of men and to believe oneself to be the opposite of what the bible says fallen man is. It's not of faith. And believers can be walking in it as well. Whatsoever is not of FAITH, is sin.
 

Episkopos

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Well, in a word, self-righteousness. That is the righteousness that the world walks in, to be seen of men and to believe oneself to be the opposite of what the bible says fallen man is. It's not of faith. And believers can be walking in it as well. Whatsoever is not of FAITH, is sin.
That's what religious people do. Most sinners aren't trying to hide their sins. Didn't Jesus say that blatant sinners were closer to the kingdom than those who thought they were doing better than others?

We are comparing flesh with flesh here.

The context of "filthy rags" righteousness is NOT a statement that destroys human righteousness...it is an admission of guilt about what certain people were doing. What OT people could compare with was a true human righteousness compared with a false human righteousness. All within the power of the flesh. Whether it was coming from the outer man or the inner man.

No one was comparing God's righteousness with a human righteousness at that point. It was comparing what WE do with what is possible to do. Jesus didn't come to call the righteous to repentance...but sinners.

Notice this...

Is. 64:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

What Isaiah is saying is that God accepts the righteous...but iniquity gets in the way when people assume they are righteous, when in fact they are not.

Peter finally understood this when he said...


34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
 
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MatthewG

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Coming to an online forum where you really do not know anyone whom you are talking to, even in the reality of visiting church with strangers you don’t know.

They all, in every church will have different views and opinions on the way they see certain things in scriptures. And that is totally allowed, freedom for an individual to seek out God, and to read the word and ask questions to God and to also seek answers in which lead to one being set free in truth, which truth shall say one free.

Therefore; when it comes to the man who is teaching. Not every teacher is a bad one, or a good one. The primary checking one must do, is to try to listen to hear the things that may be of the spirit and not of the flesh from the person.

Of course this would be ultimately best suited in teachings that start from say Matthew Chapter 1 to the end of the book, verse by verse and also grabbing other text to empathize and to show and to clearly Try to make an understanding that is reasonable and logical, even by the spirit to the best of one’s of ability to really grow to know what is going on in the Bible.

It makes for better growth in faith, to really go through the Bible and become familiar with it. Knowing that because of Jesus you are made right with God because of faith, and that the love of God is put on your hearts by the Holy Spirit of God. That believing in Jesus you are made a child of God. Jesus is wisdom, sanctification, redemption, in which one will grow in as they become refreshed with the everlasting waters and bread. Eventually growing up to be a mature son or daughter of God by faith in the gospel of Christ. Those who grow in faith grow in their spiritual born again person which will go on with them into the day of resurrection after death.

Therefore continue to learn, grow, know, experience, asking questions to God, and even to your fellow Christian neighbor. Not everyone may see the same way; but that doesn’t make a person any less Christian if they place their personal trust in the Savior of all the whole world.
 

Lizbeth

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Do you see, the men trusted God and God says a man has done right/done the right thing/done righteously, to trust Him. The man is justified/said by God to have done right to trust Him. The resulting work that shows/proves the man trusted God (shutting the mouth of lions) is not a work done by the man. It is a work done through the man. No man can shut the mouth of lions by his own ability or power.
Having the trust in God to move mountains is not by the man’s power.
Is anybody saying otherwise? I don't see anybody calling the OT saints' righteousness filthy rags. Only the unbelieving under the old covenant who were trying to establish their own righteousness apart from faith. Some in Israel under the old covenant had faith, while sadly many were only observing an outward form of religion on certain days while living like the devil the rest of the time. So God counted their religious activity and self righteousness to be filthy rags....He wasn't accepting their offering. Because He is not mocked.

And we unfortunately can see the same thing in the church all too often these days. If we mix the "good" things that we do "for God" with committing "evil" in our spare time........that is not acceptable to Him, He will reject the so called "good" that we do as filthy rags. That is one meaning of being perfect, I believe. To make sure our whole life as a whole lines up with His righteousness, not being selective in what we do for God and what we do "on the side". Perfect, whole, consistent.
 

Lizbeth

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I believe everyone is called to but few are chosen. Paul encouraged us to run to win. Win what?
I struggled many, many years with the thought of some dead saints I would read that God just calls some to more love while on earth. I cannot truck with it. I simply don’t believe it.

But curtain torn in two, being given access into the holy of holies, does not mean instantly There.
Well, everyone has their corner of the battlefield. We deal with whatever happens to be on our plates. And obviously not many of us are presented with the opportunity or need to face a lion's den. How many others in the OT had to go sit in a lion's den with hungry lions. Only Daniel. You were implying to the person you were replying to, that their righteousness isn't as up to par as Daniels' because he hadn't shut the mouths of lions. You know, we are called to be faithful and obedient.....there are those with higher callings who are not faithful and obedient in their calling....I expect they will receive a lesser "reward" than those who had lesser callings but were highly faithful in what they were given. Many who are first will be last and many who are last will be first. Eg, Balaam was a genuine prophet but he abused his gift for his own gain. I just want to make that point.

I dont' know sister...there is a holy place but also a most holy place. I've been thinking about that recently and how it might apply to our journey as believers. To the Jews, it refers to the old covenant vs new covenant, but maybe to the church it also speaks on another level.
 

Episkopos

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I think you hit the nail on the head.

They think if we disagree with them, we appose them, We attack them. We are taking shots at them.

Thats why you can’t find peace even in disagreement in many chatroom. It’s not discussion. It is that person disagrees with me. Well He disagrees with God and the Bible. Because I AM RIGHT and HE is wrong. How dare he attack me like that!!! I will take my revenge!!

That leads to personal attack, Bearing false witness against the one who they feel are attacking them, And discussion goes out the door. Because instead of being in learning mode. And testing mode. You’re in defense mode.
I think you are taking things way too personal. The forum is a place to share and compare ideas. But there is truth...we can't all be expected to keep OUR truth intact. So then there must be a willingness, an honesty, a humility, to learn, be corrected, be cajoled...etc.

And it helps if things can be a little light-hearted. There is no need to take oneself so seriously.

AND self-righteousness should be called out. Just make sure you are not the one being self-righteous.
 

Lizbeth

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I think you hit the nail on the head.

They think if we disagree with them, we appose them, We attack them. We are taking shots at them.

Thats why you can’t find peace even in disagreement in many chatroom. It’s not discussion. It is that person disagrees with me. Well He disagrees with God and the Bible. Because I AM RIGHT and HE is wrong. How dare he attack me like that!!! I will take my revenge!!

That leads to personal attack, Bearing false witness against the one who they feel are attacking them, And discussion goes out the door. Because instead of being in learning mode. And testing mode. You’re in defense mode.
Yes, I've also been seeing a lot of self-justification around here. Though I'm sure we've all probably been guilty of bickering at some time or other in this whole discussion. We just should all try to avoid that. It's hard to say when something is a needed rebuke/admonition, or has spiralled down into bickering, I'm not sure where to draw the line sometimes. Lord, help us.
 

MatthewG

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Love keeps no records of wrongs.

People get upset if they don’t align on understanding.

Quick to persecute and cut down.

Be careful.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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That's what religious people do. Most sinners aren't trying to hide their sins. Didn't Jesus say that blatant sinners were closer to the kingdom than those who thought they were doing better than others?
It’s interesting to me this morning that it says Jesus “told a parable to some who thought they were righteous.”

It was the man who KNEW he wasn’t righteous who walked away justified.

I have seen a repeat of “we be the seed of Abraham!” with “we be the seed of the Holy Spirit!”

I struggle with how it’s possible to be given the down payment, (at which point you WILL live forever), and yet be rejected. I truly think sometimes I may be shutting my eyes but at other times I think the outer darkness during the thousand years has some hope still left.
 
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MatthewG

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Abide in Christ, be affirmed in knowing you’re right with God because the works of Jesus. No one needs to compare themselves to others; nor judge them because they have a different view and if you wanna share views with each others do so with honesty and openness. Though people are prone to judging others for not accepting their own understanding and will condemn; as Christian’s they are called to love their enemies.
 
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Lizbeth

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That's what religious people do. Most sinners aren't trying to hide their sins. Didn't Jesus say that blatant sinners were closer to the kingdom than those who thought they were doing better than others?

We are comparing flesh with flesh here.

The context of "filthy rags" righteousness is NOT a statement that destroys human righteousness...it is an admission of guilt about what certain people were doing. What OT people could compare with was a true human righteousness compared with a false human righteousness. All within the power of the flesh. Whether it was coming from the outer man or the inner man.

No one was comparing God's righteousness with a human righteousness at that point. It was comparing what WE do with what is possible to do. Jesus didn't come to call the righteous to repentance...but sinners.

Notice this...

Is. 64:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

What Isaiah is saying is that God accepts the righteous...but iniquity gets in the way when people assume they are righteous, when in fact they are not.

Peter finally understood this when he said...


34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
You forgot to highlight the "feareth him" part. :) There is no fearing God without FAITH in Him.

You don't think the unbelieving of the world can be self-righteous? I see/discern it all the time. That is the difference between what is of God and what is "the way that seemeth right to man but leads to death". I agree it's of the flesh, no matter who is relying on their own righteousness.
 

Episkopos

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It’s interesting to me this morning that it says Jesus “told a parable to some who thought they were righteous.”

It was the man who KNEW he wasn’t righteous who walked away justified.

I have seen a repeat of “we be the seed of Abraham!” with “we be the seed of the Holy Spirit!”

I struggle with how it’s possible to be given the down payment, (at which point you WILL live forever), and yet be rejected. I truly think sometimes I may be shutting my eyes but at other times I think the outer darkness during the thousand years has some hope still left.
Actually the outer darkness destiny is for ever. If people understood what was at stake, they would repent quickly enough. But as Hosea says...MY people are foolish...they have rejected knowledge, therefore I will reject them.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Actually the outer darkness destiny is for ever. If people understood what was at stake, they would repent quickly enough. But as Hosea says...MY people are foolish...they have rejected knowledge, therefore I will reject them.
Yes, I understand that it’s forever. But i have in my mind that it already exists, with religious hypocrites in it, during the thousand years. Do you think so? Or do you think I am wrong?
And I can’t find the prison you won’t escape from until you pay the last farthing unless it is the outer darkness as a purgatorial place during the thousand years. Have you seen any other place that could be that prison and that could be the place of less stripes or more stripes?

Lizbeth, not ignoring you except temporarily - sometimes I want to just hear Epi speak as I learn a lot from him. There are a few who want to hear more.
But I do want to address your thought that filthy rags verse is only referring to unbelievers because I think that’s clearly wrong. So, later. I want to listen this morning. And ask my questions.
 
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Episkopos

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Yes, I understand that it’s forever. But i have in my mind that it already exists, with religious hypocrites in it, during the thousand years. Do you think so? Or do you think I am wrong?
And I can’t find the prison you won’t escape from until you pay the last farthing unless it is the outer darkness as a purgatorial place during the thousand years. Have you seen any other place that could be that prison and that could be the place of less stripes or more stripes?

Lizbeth, not ignoring you except temporarily - sometimes I want to just hear Epi speak as I learn a lot from him. There are a few who want to hear more.
I have no idea if there is a temporary outer darkness destiny during the Millennium. The bible is not clear if such a thing exists or not. But what is clear is the eternal destiny of shame.

Dan. 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Here it says "many"....not all... so then this is the first resurrection. If we see that the first resurrection is followed by the millennial kingdom rule...then we are left with both shame AND everlasting contempt, for those who are not deemed worthy of the full application of eternal life.

Could shame and everlasting contempt be considered in two separate time periods...the first temporary and the second eternal? or is this just the case of an extra adjective thrown in to describe the same destiny?
 

stunnedbygrace

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I have no idea if there is a temporary outer darkness destiny during the Millennium. The bible is not clear if such a thing exists or not. But what is clear is the eternal destiny of shame.

Dan. 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Here it says "many"....not all... so then this is the first resurrection. If we see that the first resurrection is followed by the millennial kingdom rule...then we are left with both shame AND everlasting contempt.

Could shame and everlasting contempt be considered in two separate time periods...the first temporary and the second eternal? or is this just the case of an extra adjective thrown in to describe the same destiny?
And the prison one is thrown in for not forgiving that he will not escape from until he pays the Last cent? What do you make of that?
 

Episkopos

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And the prison one is thrown in for not forgiving that he will not escape from until he pays the Last cent? What do you make of that?
That's the one the Catholics use for purgatory. Since the nations are a destiny for both the bad and good...it could be something to do with being qualified among the righteous? The saints?

Unless we can find an OT prophecy to match...we have no idea where that fits into the bigger picture. So I'm stumped on this one!

Then again, it could all be concerning what we have to go through in this life. That's what I had relegated the stripes to.
:)
 

stunnedbygrace

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That's the one the Catholics use for purgatory. Since the nations are a destiny for both the bad and good...it could be something to do with being qualified among the righteous? The saints?

Unless we can find an OT prophecy to match...we have no idea where that fits into the bigger picture. So I'm stumped on this one!

Then again, it could all be concerning what we have to go through in this life. That's what I had relegated the stripes to.
:)
I will go again to find all the verses some early fathers believed to be speaking about a place of refining after death.
I remember the one was, whoever speaks against the son of man it will be forgiven him. I also remember the one about having your works be burned up but…those are not OT.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, until they present right offerings to the LORD.
 
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MatthewG

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Actually the outer darkness destiny is for ever. If people understood what was at stake, they would repent quickly enough. But as Hosea says...MY people are foolish...they have rejected knowledge, therefore I will reject them.
Those Jewish people became hardheaded and stiff necked, in Jerusalem. See how they treated Jesus, and their respect for God had be misconstrued for idol worship, and vain worship of man’s traditions.