There is no eternal punishment!

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veteran

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In your opinion, I have a gap in my understanding. What makes you think that the unjust will be resurrected to live in the millenium reign? The bible says it is appointed for man once to die and after that, the judgment (Heb.9:27). We do know there is a second death after the judgment. That's two by my count. One before the judgment, and one after. And we also know that the judgment occurs after the millenium reign.

Many brethren have this 'gap' in their understanding about Christ's Millennium reign; it's mainly because they haven't studied the Old Testament prophets to the depth they study the New Testament Books. If you'll re-read what you wrote in your last two statements, you should eventually discover how you answered you're own question about the resurrected unjust for Christ's Millennium reign. The John 5:28-29 Scripture is one proof; Zechariah 14:16-19 is another; Isaiah 25 is another; as also 1 Cor.15 and Acts 24:15. Then there are several smaller hints throughout God's Word, like in Isaiah, which is an Old Testament Book about God's Salvation. The "outer darkness" Message is also a proof given by our Lord Jesus in the four Gospel Books.

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(KJV)

I never fully understood that above Scripture until I got down to study in all of God's Word. It being given in the last chapter of Revelation apparently serves as a test, to see if we'll study all of His Word and not just parts that are popular. Most bypass those verses because they think everything in Rev.22 means past Christ's thousand years reign. Those two verses are showing the time of Christ's future thousand years reign, with the tree of life and beloved city manifested while... the unjust are assigned outside the gates of the holy city, existing there at that time. It aligns with the events in Zech.14:16-19 and Ezekiel about the Millennium time, and especially our Lord's Messages about those assigned to the "outer darkness".


Well...John5:28,29 makes no mention of the second coming. Did Jesus intend to put the same time frame on both resurrections? Or was He simply stating that there would be one for both the just and unjust?

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(KJV)

We don't have to guess at what that "hour" is. The subject of His voice is about the 'shout' of 1 Thess.4:16.

1Thes 4:16
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(KJV)

In 1 Thess.4:16 Paul is specifically marking the dead in Christ that will rise in that "hour"; but in John 5:28-29 Jesus is covering it for both the just and the unjust.


As for Paul's hope... It has come to my attention that much of the world has altered the meaning of the word hope. We use it differently now than even a few years ago. In a sentence, one might say.." I hope I win the lottery". This is a wish or desire. That is not what hope meant as it was used in the translation of the bible. The best description of the word is that it means the anticipation of a future event. Paul's statement made no mention of a desire to see the unjust turned to God after their resurrection. It just doesn't say that. He simply said that he had this hope (anticipation), that there will be a resurrection for the just and the unjust. Why assume anything further than that? The passage gives no room for such assumption.

Surely you're not serious? The world's idea of 'hope' is now what Paul's idea of hope was? God forbid.

See Romans 8 for how Paul described the idea of hope by those in Christ Jesus. That's the same... hope he was applying in Acts 24:15, and he showed how he was agreeing with the understanding of the scribes and Pharisees on that... specific matter of the resurrection of the unjust. Paul even said there his hope was towards God about that matter! Your faulty reasoning on that word hope is not going to change what Paul meant there, for it's the same... Greek word he used for the hope in Christ's Salvation in his other Epistles.


This passage does not refer to the unjust, that is those who die without Christ. He is speaking of His elect. I'm sure both you and I will yet learn doctrine in the next life.

The only believers that Isaiah 29 passage is about is those who fall away from Christ in this world, simply because the ones that will be teaching doctrine will be Christ's elect of the "first resurrection". That's part of their job during Christ's future reign as priests and kings. Look at what Jesus said to His elect of the Church of Philadelphia, how He is going to make those of the "synagogue of Satan" bow at their feet in that future time.

There's so much Scripture evidence for the unjust existing throughout Christ's thousand years reign that one would have to be determined to skip it by wanting to heed men's doctrines outside of God's Word instead. I see no reason to continue since it's apparent that's what you've been taught to listen to.
 
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williemac

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Thank you for your reply, Veteran. However, I see you did not reply to all that I said. Is there more coming?

Just to get things straight, here, I am specifically objecting to the idea that the unjust will rise to a second chance for redemption. Jesus said just the opposite in John 5:29. Those in Christ rise to life and those otherwise will rise to damnation. Regardless of the time frame, there is no proof that the unjust will come back and be alive on earth during the millenium reign. The earth will be alrady populated with survivors of the tribulation. As well, people will die during that 1000 yr. period. So then the passage I referred to that it is appointed to men to die ONCE and after that be judged, becomes errant. Unless you are claiming that they will not die again for a thousand years until they are judged. With baited breath, Howie
 

Strat

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So we can't even accept the reality of Hell...Jesus spoke of Hell often but he never expressed any regret about its existence...only that it was the place all those who rejected him would go....the gospels speak about Hell,again with no regret expressed over its existence as if God got this one wrong,the regret of those who choose to go there is mentioned however....one of the defining characteristics of the modern church and its members is its assumption that it knows more about love,compassion,justice and wisdom than God does...often expressed the phrase "The god i serve wouldn't do" this or that and defining their god by themselves.....quite the contrary,the god you serve by default will bring upon you horrors you can't even imagine....both in this life and the life to come in a place called Hell.
 

aspen

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I am more compassionate and loving towards my dogs than your all-loving God is towards you.

It would be unethical to worship a god like that.

If I appear before a tyrant like him on Judgment Day, I will naturally believe I am in the wrong place and ask to leave.
 

williemac

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God is Just - do you really believe He would send someone to Hell who had no chance to hear his word?
Greetings Aspen. Good question. Some do believe that, but not all. Some would also reply that those in hell sent themselves there by default.

However, I do feel that it is valid to acknowledge that God is just. As well, the most valid reply will come from an accurate look at scripture. It happens that the qualification for eternal life is little understood in my viewpoint. Many believe that the qualification is faith, and therefore it follows that one must hear and respond to the gospel in order to recieve life.

However, we all know that God knows the heart of every human. He knows how they would respond to the truth, whether they have had the chance to hear it or not. And as it happens, faith is not the qualification for life. Humility is. Faith is merely the means by which a humble person receives a free gift from God.

God gives grace to the humble.

I am open to His righteous judgment in this matter. As well, my personal studies have led me to conclude that forever conscious torment is not the fate of the unsaved. For that to happen, the person would have life forever, and in no uncertain terms, the bible states that living forever is reserved for only those who partake of Jesus (John 6:50,51, etc.).

However, there is the matter of where a person goes to await the final judgment. This is hell; Hades, to be exact. It is real. But the torment is not the same as torture. Simply, there will be mental anguish for those who are there. But it's not much different than what they experience in this life. It is centred around the unfulfilled life of a person who lacks the "life" he was created to experience. The bible refers to it as dryness. Even the rich man, who was tormented by fire in Hades, did not feel the fire the way that we would in physical terms. He merely wanted to quench his thirst, asking if Lazerus could help in that regard.

Jesus proclaimed that if anyone thirsts, they could come to Him for living water. But there are those who prefer to go their own way and do their own thing for their fulfillment. That is their choice. If they were honest with themselves, they would acknowledge that the lusts of this world fail to supply the thing we all thirst for. The proud will never admit their failure. " I did it my way" is their anthem. Why should God supply mercy to this kind of heart?

Cheers, Howie
 

Strat

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I am more compassionate and loving towards my dogs than your all-loving God is towards you.

It would be unethical to worship a god like that.

If I appear before a tyrant like him on Judgment Day, I will naturally believe I am in the wrong place and ask to leave.

At last you reveal who you realy are minus all the wimpering about love...thank you for being honest.

Greetings Aspen. Good question. Some do believe that, but not all. Some would also reply that those in hell sent themselves there by default.

However, I do feel that it is valid to acknowledge that God is just. As well, the most valid reply will come from an accurate look at scripture. It happens that the qualification for eternal life is little understood in my viewpoint. Many believe that the qualification is faith, and therefore it follows that one must hear and respond to the gospel in order to recieve life.

However, we all know that God knows the heart of every human. He knows how they would respond to the truth, whether they have had the chance to hear it or not. And as it happens, faith is not the qualification for life. Humility is. Faith is merely the means by which a humble person receives a free gift from God.

God gives grace to the humble.

I am open to His righteous judgment in this matter. As well, my personal studies have led me to conclude that forever conscious torment is not the fate of the unsaved. For that to happen, the person would have life forever, and in no uncertain terms, the bible states that living forever is reserved for only those who partake of Jesus (John 6:50,51, etc.).

However, there is the matter of where a person goes to await the final judgment. This is hell; Hades, to be exact. It is real. But the torment is not the same as torture. Simply, there will be mental anguish for those who are there. But it's not much different than what they experience in this life. It is centred around the unfulfilled life of a person who lacks the "life" he was created to experience. The bible refers to it as dryness. Even the rich man, who was tormented by fire in Hades, did not feel the fire the way that we would in physical terms. He merely wanted to quench his thirst, asking if Lazerus could help in that regard.

Jesus proclaimed that if anyone thirsts, they could come to Him for living water. But there are those who prefer to go their own way and do their own thing for their fulfillment. That is their choice. If they were honest with themselves, they would acknowledge that the lusts of this world fail to supply the thing we all thirst for. The proud will never admit their failure. " I did it my way" is their anthem. Why should God supply mercy to this kind of heart?

Cheers, Howie

The answer is simple,for Aspen it is man who defines God not God who defines man therefore since everybody thinks they deserve a break today God should go along and do whatever man requires of him,or,as you can see in his most recent post,God is somebody he wants nothing to do with
 

aspen

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Greetings Aspen. Good question. Some do believe that, but not all. Some would also reply that those in hell sent themselves there by default.

However, I do feel that it is valid to acknowledge that God is just. As well, the most valid reply will come from an accurate look at scripture. It happens that the qualification for eternal life is little understood in my viewpoint. Many believe that the qualification is faith, and therefore it follows that one must hear and respond to the gospel in order to recieve life.

However, we all know that God knows the heart of every human. He knows how they would respond to the truth, whether they have had the chance to hear it or not. And as it happens, faith is not the qualification for life. Humility is. Faith is merely the means by which a humble person receives a free gift from God.

God gives grace to the humble.

I am open to His righteous judgment in this matter. As well, my personal studies have led me to conclude that forever conscious torment is not the fate of the unsaved. For that to happen, the person would have life forever, and in no uncertain terms, the bible states that living forever is reserved for only those who partake of Jesus (John 6:50,51, etc.).

However, there is the matter of where a person goes to await the final judgment. This is hell; Hades, to be exact. It is real. But the torment is not the same as torture. Simply, there will be mental anguish for those who are there. But it's not much different than what they experience in this life. It is centred around the unfulfilled life of a person who lacks the "life" he was created to experience. The bible refers to it as dryness. Even the rich man, who was tormented by fire in Hades, did not feel the fire the way that we would in physical terms. He merely wanted to quench his thirst, asking if Lazerus could help in that regard.

Jesus proclaimed that if anyone thirsts, they could come to Him for living water. But there are those who prefer to go their own way and do their own thing for their fulfillment. That is their choice. If they were honest with themselves, they would acknowledge that the lusts of this world fail to supply the thing we all thirst for. The proud will never admit their failure. " I did it my way" is their anthem. Why should God supply mercy to this kind of heart?

Cheers, Howie

This is a well thought out post, Howie. I appreciate the chance to learn different viewpoints.
 

us2are1

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There is indeed punishment that will be eternal. Thos who are worthy of the wages of sin will receive death and they will be dead for eternity.
The lake of fire in Revelation is a bad translation.
Elijah brought the lake of fire down on the captain and fifty twice. It will be administered the same way at the return of Christ.
There will be torment right up until death removes the life and then there will be no consciousness.
man is flesh and when the flesh dies or is consumed there is no consciousness until the resurection from the dead. Only those who are worthy will be resurected back to life.

Luke 20
35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead,-------------.
 

Strat

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If we cannot believe in anything the bible has to say about hell why believe anything else it has to say ?
if we eagerly believe that heaven is eternal based on the lanquage used to describe it why can't we believe hell is eternal based on the lanquage used to describe it ?
if you are not going to hell why worry about it at all apart from warning others at every opportunity ? this is love.......speaking the truth.
are you more wise and all knowing than God is ?
do you know more about love than God does ?
are you going to wag your finger at God like some disapproving school master and tell him that hell just isn't acceptable ?
anything or anyone who attempts to diminish the word of God...to lessen the glory or the suffering is of the devil and will share in his fate.
 

jiggyfly

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If we cannot believe in anything the bible has to say about hell why believe anything else it has to say ?
if we eagerly believe that heaven is eternal based on the lanquage used to describe it why can't we believe hell is eternal based on the lanquage used to describe it ?
if you are not going to hell why worry about it at all apart from warning others at every opportunity ? this is love.......speaking the truth.
are you more wise and all knowing than God is ?
do you know more about love than God does ?
are you going to wag your finger at God like some disapproving school master and tell him that hell just isn't acceptable ?
anything or anyone who attempts to diminish the word of God...to lessen the glory or the suffering is of the devil and will share in his fate.

There is a big difference between what some translations say and what the scriptures say about hell among other topics but most won't be able to tell the difference because they hold to religious paradigm rather than the truth conveyed in the scriptures.
 

Strat

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There is a big difference between what some translations say and what the scriptures say about hell among other topics but most won't be able to tell the difference because they hold to religious paradigm rather than the truth conveyed in the scriptures.

The one thing they all seem to have in common is they accept the good,the pleasant,that which is appealing and they reject everything else....we must accept God as saviour,King,provider....and if we so choose....judge.
 

jiggyfly

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The one thing they all seem to have in common is they accept the good,the pleasant,that which is appealing and they reject everything else....we must accept God as saviour,King,provider....and if we so choose....judge.

I agree but most misunderstand God's justice and His reason for punishment. Unending torment conflicts with God's justice, His character and the scriptures. Religious man-made doctrines and paradigms make it very difficult to understand what the scriptures actually convey. Many, when faced with truth contrary to what they have been taught by religion, claim it is twisting the scriptures, when in reality it is untwisting the scriptures and it can be confusing because using the natural mind how can one tell the difference between twisting and untwisting, they pretty much appear to be the same.
 

williemac

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There is indeed punishment that will be eternal. Thos who are worthy of the wages of sin will receive death and they will be dead for eternity.
The lake of fire in Revelation is a bad translation.
Elijah brought the lake of fire down on the captain and fifty twice. It will be administered the same way at the return of Christ.
There will be torment right up until death removes the life and then there will be no consciousness.
man is flesh and when the flesh dies or is consumed there is no consciousness until the resurection from the dead. Only those who are worthy will be resurected back to life.

Luke 20
35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead,-------------.

This is also my understanding. However, I do see in scripture that this final death occurs after the thousand year reign of Christ. It was explained by Jesus that there are those who can kill the body but not the soul (Math.10:28), the point being that the soul does not die in the first death. This explains the passages such as the rich man and Lazerous, where they both die and find themselves in another place, one of rest, and the other of mental anguish (torment).

Some of those who insist on the doctrine of forever torment, I feel are confusing this state with that of the final state, the second death, where both body and soul recieve the same fate, also mentioned in Math.10:28 (the word for hell in that passage is 'Gehenna', not Hades). It is indeed an eternal punishment. Dead forever.

There are those who quote the fate of the three mentioned in Rev.20:10, who will be tormented day and night forever. If this happens to be a conscious torment, it only applies to those for whom the Lake of Fire was created, the devil and his fellow fallen angels. There are no passages in scripture that speak of this fate for humans. Living forever is not designated for all humanity. Thanks for your post. Blessings, Howie
 

Strat

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I agree but most misunderstand God's justice and His reason for punishment. Unending torment conflicts with God's justice, His character and the scriptures. Religious man-made doctrines and paradigms make it very difficult to understand what the scriptures actually convey. Many, when faced with truth contrary to what they have been taught by religion, claim it is twisting the scriptures, when in reality it is untwisting the scriptures and it can be confusing because using the natural mind how can one tell the difference between twisting and untwisting, they pretty much appear to be the same.

Why accept the good things as being correctly translated and the bad things incorrectly translated ? no reason to assume the good is right and the bad is wrong....apart from the desire to believe it so....ie human nature.

Why accept ther word "eternal" in regard to life in heaven used in Matt 25/46,yet reject the word "everlasting" used in regard to punishment in the same passage ?
What affect is eternal punishment to a dead man ?
What affect is eternal fire to a dead man ?
A worm that dies not is of no consequence to a dead man ?
Why would Jesus warn against being cast into hell whole vs entering heaven missing a body part. ?...body parts don't concern a dead man.
How does unending torment for rejecting Jesus conflict with God's justice ? yet eternal life regardless of sin via faith and grace is acceptable ?
There is no scripture that says what human beings experience in the place prepared for the devil and his angels will be any different from the experience of the devil and his angels.

I know the routine and the formula having heard it many times...if the bible says it and its good and makes one feel good then...Praise the Lord!!! it is to be trusted as the word of God lifted up and correctly translated as the word of God for all to hear....if it is unpleasant and painful and makes one feel bad then it is a false translation,incorrectly translated,ect,ec,ect....nothing new under the sun.
 

jiggyfly

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Why accept the good things as being correctly translated and the bad things incorrectly translated ? no reason to assume the good is right and the bad is wrong....apart from the desire to believe it so....ie human nature.

Why accept ther word "eternal" in regard to life in heaven used in Matt 25/46,yet reject the word "everlasting" used in regard to punishment in the same passage ?
What affect is eternal punishment to a dead man ?
What affect is eternal fire to a dead man ?
A worm that dies not is of no consequence to a dead man ?
Why would Jesus warn against being cast into hell whole vs entering heaven missing a body part. ?...body parts don't concern a dead man.
How does unending torment for rejecting Jesus conflict with God's justice ? yet eternal life regardless of sin via faith and grace is acceptable ?
There is no scripture that says what human beings experience in the place prepared for the devil and his angels will be any different from the experience of the devil and his angels.

I know the routine and the formula having heard it many times...if the bible says it and its good and makes one feel good then...Praise the Lord!!! it is to be trusted as the word of God lifted up and correctly translated as the word of God for all to hear....if it is unpleasant and painful and makes one feel bad then it is a false translation,incorrectly translated,ect,ec,ect....nothing new under the sun.

Yeah I see your point and again that is what happens when scripture is mistranslated and misunderstood. The Greek word aion is mistranslated in both instances.

Here again we can see where errant translating causes errant thinking. Some translators used the word hell to translate many different Greek and Hebrew words, Gehenna being one of them, was the garbage dump.

Do you think that Luke 6:35 misunderstood? Do you think it was translated wrongly?
 

Strat

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No i don't,God is gracous to the ungrateful and evil by allowing them to have life for even a brief period of time...perhaps because he knows what is waiting for them if they don't repent.

I have to wonder what the motivation is for those who seek to diminish Hell and its horror...is it to better sell God to the masses ? is it to comfort those who do not believe into thinking that their fate won't be that bad after all ? why would a christian seek to diminish something spoken of so severely by Jesus and the apostles ?
 

aspen

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Why are other people obsessed by God's wrath, pain and suffering, eternal Hell and severe justice at the expense of mercy? Where is the peace of mind? Where is the abundant life?

God is not a god of death - He is God of the living! He came to bring us life.
 

Strat

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Why are other people obsessed by God's wrath, pain and suffering, eternal Hell and severe justice at the expense of mercy? Where is the peace of mind? Where is the abundant life?

God is not a god of death - He is God of the living! He came to bring us life.

If you are saved and trusting in Jesus why let any of it bother you...oh thats right,you are the one who knows more about it than God,the one foolish enough to say that on judgement day you will walk out if it isn't done they way you think it should be...lol read your bible Aspen...all of it ,not your copy of the Happy,snappy,warm and fuzzy bible verses for the modern liberal...God is the God of all...not just the parts you like.
 

jiggyfly

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No i don't,God is gracous to the ungrateful and evil by allowing them to have life for even a brief period of time...perhaps because he knows what is waiting for them if they don't repent.

Have you looked at the verse?
"Love your enemies! Do good to them. Lend to them without expecting to be repaid. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to those who are unthankful and wicked.

I don't see Jesus telling everyone to torment their enemies like their Father in heaven.


I have to wonder what the motivation is for those who seek to diminish Hell and its horror...is it to better sell God to the masses ?

How about seeking the truth in order to proclaim the truth about God.


is it to comfort those who do not believe into thinking that their fate won't be that bad after all ? why would a christian seek to diminish something spoken of so severely by Jesupostles and the as ?
Is that what you think about Paul and the message he preached?
 

veteran

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Thank you for your reply, Veteran. However, I see you did not reply to all that I said. Is there more coming?

Just to get things straight, here, I am specifically objecting to the idea that the unjust will rise to a second chance for redemption. Jesus said just the opposite in John 5:29. Those in Christ rise to life and those otherwise will rise to damnation. Regardless of the time frame, there is no proof that the unjust will come back and be alive on earth during the millenium reign. The earth will be alrady populated with survivors of the tribulation. As well, people will die during that 1000 yr. period. So then the passage I referred to that it is appointed to men to die ONCE and after that be judged, becomes errant. Unless you are claiming that they will not die again for a thousand years until they are judged. With baited breath, Howie

The Zech.14:16-19 is proof of the resurrected unjust existing throughout Christ's future Millennium reign, just as the Rev.22:14-15 verses are also, as with His Message about those in the "outer darkness" after His coming, per the Gospel Books. No one in that time of Christ's future thousand years reign will still be in a body of 'corruption' like we have today.

So God has shown you in His Word if you should choose to listen to Him about it. But so far, it appears you reject that as written in favor of some doctrine of men you've been taught to believe instead.

No i don't,God is gracous to the ungrateful and evil by allowing them to have life for even a brief period of time...perhaps because he knows what is waiting for them if they don't repent.

I have to wonder what the motivation is for those who seek to diminish Hell and its horror...is it to better sell God to the masses ? is it to comfort those who do not believe into thinking that their fate won't be that bad after all ? why would a christian seek to diminish something spoken of so severely by Jesus and the apostles ?

It all boils down to lack of Faith in God's Holy Writ and the testimony of His servants. Christians who would subvert the Biblical concept of a place in the heavenly for the wicked are simply aligning to doctrines of this world, and a lot of that is designed to trick them into putting their trust in Satan's coming one world Utopia on this earth for the last days. Many of the ideas of this world being thrown out today are in prep for that coming Rev.13:1 beast kingdom upon this earth ruled by a false king-messiah that is to appear prior to our Lord Jesus' second coming.