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There is no eternal punishment!

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by TruthSeeker2012, Mar 11, 2012.

  1. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    Really? Zech.14:16-19 makes no mention that those are people who have once died and are resurrected. It is speaking of everyone who is left, of all the nations that came against Jerusalem. Left from what? Why don't we just read a few earlier verses and see?....vs.12.." And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet...(etc.)" So people are going to die. But not everyone. Vs.14 speaks of those who are left. Left what? Alive!! No resurrection mentioned.

    But the outer darkness can be explained that these are they whom have died and are awaiting the resurrection to judgment. They are in Hades. (the body can be killed but not the soul, in the first death..Math.10:28) People are there right now...alive, but not resurrected. They are incarcerated as it were. In outer darkness. I still have yet to see the proof that the unjust will be bodily resurrected to a second chance. The order is clear. It is appointed to men to die once, and after that, the judgment. No second chance in that equation.
    assuming of course, that I am promoting a doctrine I have been taught by anyone.

    In debating a doctrine in a civil and Christian manner, it is inappropriate, not to mention inaccurate, to throw all the opposers into a big box and judge them all as those who lack faith. As well, many and likely most who study Revelations, do not conform to the idea of a utopia in the last days. Where you getting these conclusions? Can you climb into the collective minds of those who also love the Lord and study His word, and find fault just because they have a different viewpoint than yourself? Is this somehow supposed to invoke remorse, so that we change our minds and conform to your point of view? I hardly think so.

    But I detect a similarity to what I am saying. There is indeed a place in the heavenly for the wicked. In the heavenly. This is called Hades, the place of the dead. Resurrection is not required for this place. In the first death, the physical body dies but not the soul. Those who are in Hades have another body. Though it is a spiritual body, it is not a resurrected body.

    However, I do agree that the world is being brainwashed and prepared for the coming of the false messiah. But I assure you that anyone who belongs to Christ will not be fooled. He knows how to keep and preserve those who are His.
     
  2. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Just because the Zech.14 doesn't go into the detail about all on earth being changed on the day of The Lord like 1 Cor.15:48-53 does, and other references like Isaiah 25, that doesn't mean some will still be in a flesh type body of 'corruption' after Christ's coming. Afterall, you still have failed to prove the John 5:28-29 Scripture is NOT about the time of Christ's coming linked to 1 Thess.4:16-17. Moreover, the "second death" isn't about the death of the flesh body as you yourself have said. And the popular interpretation of Rev.20:5 about the 'dead' wicked is that they aren't even resurrected until the end of the thousand years, an idea you yourself put forth here in your post #95. So it's obvious you've got a conflict going on about this matter, though you may not be willing to admit it.


    If you'll actually read the Matthew 8 Scripture as written, you'll discover the time when the rebellious of "the children of the kingdom" are cast to the "outer darkness" is when many will come from the east and west to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven. In the wedding feast example of Matt.22, one of the unjust is trying to sneak into the wedding feast and is discovered not having on a wedding garment, and is then cast to the "outer darkness". That's Millennium timing.

    What this is about is how in the heavenly dimension right now there is a place of separation for the unjust apart from the just, like Jesus showed in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. And when Christ returns to gather His Church, that type of separation will continue to exist, but instead it will be upon the earth. The Rev.22:14-15 reveals the outer darkness will continue on earth, but will exist outside the gates of the holy city that will be on earth for Christ's thousand years reign. In Rev.20:7-9 this is also revealed with the nations outside the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city".

    In 1 Cor.15 when Apostle Paul revealed TWO required changes in order to have Eternal Life through Christ Jesus, that teaching includes the unjust being changed also, but ONLY from the "image of the earthy" to the "image of the heavenly", i.e. from a body of 'corruption' to a body of 'incorruption'. The fact that non-believers will also be 'resurrected' per Scripture cements this idea of their flesh body being changed to a spiritual body (the image of the heavenly). Men's traditions instead have taught us that the "image of the heavenly" and "spiritual body" state is ONLY for those in Christ Jesus, and has nothing to do with the unjust. They teach it as an automatic part of Christ's Salvation, so they don't apply that first change to the wicked at all, which is why they fail to see how Paul was covering a change also for the unjust in that 1 Cor.15 chapter. Here is one of the OT Scripture areas that Paul was pulling from when teaching in 1 Cor.15...


    Isa 25:1-9
    1 O LORD, thou art My God; I will exalt Thee, I will praise Thy name; for Thou hast done wonderful things; Thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth.
    2 For Thou hast made of a city an heap; of a defenced city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be built.
    3 Therefore shall the strong people glorify Thee, the city of the terrible nations shall fear Thee.

    The specific timing when the unjust will fear Him isn't discovered until later in the chapter...


    4 For Thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.
    5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.
    6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
    7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
    8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
    9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, This is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: This is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
    (KJV)

    That part in bold is about the time of Christ's return and the change all peoples still alive on earth will go through then. The Isaiah 25:7 verse has the idea of a wrapper or covering or veil that is over all nations and peoples being removed in that time. It even uses a Hebrew idea like a weaving or fusion of something being removed that is upon all peoples (i.e, the flesh). In connection with what Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, it's about the change from a body of corruption to a body of incorruption, and then with the heavenly being exposed to all peoples on earth.

    The Hebrews 9:27 verse that all men are appointed to die once and then the judgment is not about the "second death"; it's about death of one's flesh of this world. The "second death" of Rev.20 is about death of those in incorruptible bodies at the end, cast into the lake of fire. It's those nations of Rev.20:7-9 that are outside... the "camp of the saints" upon the earth that represent the "dead" of Rev.20:5. They are going to exist throughout Christ's thousand years reign, outside the gates of the holy city, in flesh bodies? No, in bodies of 'incorruption', the "image of the heavenly". Whether here on earth, or in the heavenly, our soul requires a body. In the earthly dimension it's a flesh body; in the heavenly dimension it's a spiritual body. Even Satan and his angels in the heavenly have that image of the heavenly type body. The heavenly dimension is going to be revealed here on earth, to all peoples and nations at Christ's coming. This is why our Lord Jesus showed those of the "synagogue of Satan" will still exist, and come to bow at the feet of His elect of the Church of Philadelphia (Rev.3:9). That's Milennium timing.


    I'm not throwing all who oppose this into a big box, unless you mean those who heed men's traditions. And I'm certainly not judging anyone.

    As for the idea of Utopia, it's an ancient doctrine of the children of darkness who work for the devil. The devil is who has that plan of setting up a Utopian society here on earth so he can try to be worshipped as God in His Place at Jerusalem. That plan has been on-going in secret for centuries, and only in today's final generation on earth has it been openly revealed, for those paying attention that is. It's about today's globalist movement, the "one world government" idea they have which is their label for it, not mine.

    If you think that's what I'm trying to do then it only reveals your lack of understanding about this matter per God's Word. The fault belongs only to brethren that allow themselves to be deceived about Satan's Utopian ideals, especially since our Heavenly Father already revealed that plan to us within His Word, particularly in His Book of Revelation given through His Apostle John. What understanding on this matter per Scripture should evoke is Faith in God doing what He said He is going to do, and Faith that the prophecies for the end are going to come to pass just like He said. If some brethren want to be deceived about it, then that's up to them. But those not deceived have the duty to warn others about it per God's Word, whether others listen or not.


    Well, there's only 2 types of bodies per God's Word, one is the "natural body" (flesh) and the other is the "spiritual body", per Paul in 1 Cor.15. So if the body the unjust dead have in that heavenly place of holding is not one of flesh, then.... it is.... a spiriutal type body, which is... the body of resurrection. I know it's difficult to admit that the spiriutal body state can belong to the wicked dead also, especially because of how most Churches teach that merely being raised from the dead means eternal Life in Christ Jesus. Yet, they have that idea wrong about the unjust that are raised also, but their soul part is still....'dead' and subject to the "second death" casting into the lake of fire. The souls of the resurrected 'dead' are still 'mortal' souls in that sense, not having 'put on immortality' through Christ Jesus. This is why our Lord Jesus gave a spiritual metaphor about the scribes and Pharisees being like whited sepulcures and graves, with what's inside being like dead men's bones. It's about the state of their souls inside their flesh body, their souls being 'dead' spiritually, without Christ and The Holy Spirit. That's the real meaning of the Rev.20:5 "dead"; it's about their liable to perish mortal soul state, which is the "this mortal" part Apostle Paul was covering in 1 Cor.15.


    True, Christ's elect will not be deceived by that false messiah. But not every believer on Jesus Christ is in that state of understanding today. So if you know all this, then it's part of your job to help them to understand this.
     
  3. Strat

    Strat New Member

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    If what you say is true there was absolutley no reason for Jesus to ever leave the glory of heaven to come here...it was a complete waste of time to save peope from what amounts to nothing.


    Its the same old worn out record of people who want to doaway with that which they don't like
     
  4. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    Not sure how you came to that conclusion, can you elaborate?
     
  5. Strat

    Strat New Member

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    God is love but he is also holiness and judgement,todays modern christian gets the love part but the judgement they rationalize away...if God is only love then he could have just overlooked sin and let all people into heaven and been done with it....his holiness requires judgement and penalty for sin...Jesus came to pay the penalty for those who trust in him,for those who don't there is no remedy left for them but punishment...eternal punishment for rejecting Jesus,eternal reward for trusting in Jesus....people accept one and reject the other based on their emotional responses to each one....the the word of God does not subject itself to human emotion or logic.
     
  6. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    So what do you think is the penalty for sin, is it endless torment?
     
  7. brodav9

    brodav9 New Member

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    In the O.T. we see the word hell and in the N.T. we see the word hell. Both are English words. if you look at the O.T. word shehole Hebrew
    means Hades as it does in N.T. Greek Geenna both words speak of Hades which is not really hell. Lk. 16:23-24 Hades is a place of waiting as is seen that Abraham is also waiting in this great fixed gulf. Paradise is right accross the street from the place of torment.
    to confirm this we have the understanding that along with Hades, there will be a new heavens in the later time. Also Hades will be cast in the lake of fire that burns forever. There is very good description in Dr. Hobart E. Freeman book on ---exploring biblical Theology. He by the way was a Theologian.
     
  8. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    The "lake of fire" event is an eternal punsihment, it's about perishing along with the devil, the abode called hell and the power of death. So what's the problem? The main argument here has mainly been about whether that "lake of fire" event is a one-time event that happens and is then over, vs. the idea that the wicked perpetually burn in it for eternity. That has nothing do with trying to do way with God's judgments for the end. Nor does that argument change God's Word about the Millennium events that will begin with Christ's return but prior to that "lake of fire".

    Maybe you don't really believe the near future Rev.20 "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect is going to happen, I don't know. There are some seminary doctrines which don't believe in it, but think at Christ's return all the wicked still alive on earth are destroyed and we then go immediately into God's Great White Throne Judgment for wicked 'dead', and then into Eternity, or they believe that right now we are in Christ's thousand years timing. Yet it's not difficult to disprove those kind of doctrines by staying in God's Word as written.

    God is long-suffering towards us all, not wishing that any... should perish (2 Pet.3). So the "lake of fire" event is not about believers on Christ Jesus who mess up and sin at times, nor believers that sin out of ignorance, nor people with good moral character who have yet to 'hear' The Gospel, nor those who died early before having opportunity to 'hear' The Gospel. The lake of fire is for the devil and his angels, and for the willingly rebellious wicked "workers of iniquity" that don't give a hoot whether they sin at all, that love to teach others how to sin, and that are determined to slander God and His Christ and defiantly work against Him because of their wanting to be their own gods.

    Yet God is not going to judge anyone born flesh to that "lake of fire" UNTIL... they have first had opportunity to 'hear' His Gospel so they can choose. The fact that NO ONE EXCEPT Satan and his angels have as of today already been judged and sentenced to perish in that lake of fire is proof of that.
     
  9. Strat

    Strat New Member

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    The penaly for not accepting the blood of Jesus as payment for sin and to be filled with the holy spirit so that one does not peactise sin yes,it is eternal punishment since the reward for faith in Jesus is eternal life in heaven why shouldn't the penalty for rejecting that faith be weternal punishment ?

    Again i ask the question,why even debate or concern yourself over eternal punishment unless you are afraid it will be your fate ?
     
  10. us2are1

    us2are1 Son Of Man

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    The soul dies when the flesh dies because God made man out of the dust of the earth and breathed into his nostrels the breath of life and man became a living soul. Remove the breath of life and the dust dies and man becomes a dead soul. It is just that simple. This is the reason for the resurrection from the dead at Christ's return.

    Genesis 2
    7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    Genesis 6
    3 And the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."
     
  11. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    I am aware of this argument. I have spent many hours in conversation with J.w.'s in the past and am familiar with their use of that passage in Genesis as a definition for man. However, it is merely an opinion that this passage was meant to define us. In examining other translations, and studying the context, we can see what was meant in the text. God made a body that was lifeless. He then breathed life into this body and it came alive. The emphasis is on the word "living". But in 1Thess.5:23, we are defined in wholeness, as body, soul, and spirit.

    I also would agree that the soul is who we are. Our identity is most certainly found in that area of our being. The word in the Greek comes from 'phsyche', which means 'mind'. Who we are is the sum of our intellect, re: our thoughts, intentions, memory, emotions, will, etc.

    But the bible also goes further. Just as a computor consists of the hard drive, it also is housed in a body. The hard drive can be removed and placed in another system. The human body is described in this fashion. It is called the "tent", in 2Cor.5. In that passage, we are said to dwell in a building, a tent, as it were. And Paul goes on to say that if this was to be destroyed, we have another one. So who is the "we"? It is our soul. And what is this other spiritual body? It is our spirit.

    This is how in Math.10:28, Jesus was able to advise that they do not fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. He goes on to say that God is able to destroy both in Gehenna. The word "both" could never be used if the body and soul were one and the same. It is obvious that they are not.

    Another place that confirms this is in 2Cor.5:6-8. where Paul goes on to say that it is possible to be absent from the body. Don't forget, the context of this passage is the death of the physical body. As well, in the parable of the rich man and Lazerus, they both die physically and are transported to another place, one part that offers rest, the other part, torment. Since in that story, the rich man is not affected by fire in the way that our physical bodies would be, it is obvious he has another type of body; a spiritual one, as described by Paul in 2Cor.5:1.

    So we can use the Genesis passage to define us, and then find ways to explain away these other passages, or we can allow all of them together help us understand how we are put together, and for what purpose each part of us was created.

    And in our case, we are told, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. But the resurrection is about receiving a new body. In 1Cor.15: there is no reference to the soul being resurrected. From vs.35 to 42, it is entirely about the body. And in vs.51, Paul confirms that this is about a change. For those who are still alive when the last trumpet sounds, will not experience physical death. They will merely receive their new body on the spot.

    Can the soul die? Yes, for sure. But not until the second death. In the meantime, in Hades, there is weeping, gnashing of teeth, outer darkness, and torment (mental anguish). I for one do not see these things happening in the second death. But as Jesus said, there is a time when the body can be killed but not the soul.
     
  12. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    I see!

    You have mistaken your depiction of an angry, vengeful, wrathful god for the real God of love - the same God that died for us on the cross in order to reconcile with us - that is how much He wanted to be in relationship with us. I would walk out on your God, strat, not mine.
     
  13. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Eccl.12:5-7 reveals more though, that God made man both with flesh and spirit. New Testament Scripture reveals even more about our makeup from God, and how our soul is not dependent upon our flesh (Matt.10:28). Also, Jesus would not have given the example of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16 of separation of our spirit at flesh death and its continued existence apart from flesh if this were not so.

    What you're actually pushing is an old Jewish doctrine that believes man is nothing more than material earthly matter and that's it. What Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3 was specific to that confusion among the Jews' traditions.

    John 3:3-13
    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"


    Nicodemus' intepretation per the Jew's fleshy traditions? How can someone that's only flesh be born into a flesh womb again when he is old? how can he enter the second time into his mother's womb and be born?

    5 Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


    What is born of flesh is... flesh. What is born of the Spirit is... spirit. Jesus made a distinction between 2 different operations and orders, flesh vs. spirit. They are not to be confused with each other. The flesh cannot be born of the Spirit, neither does spirit come from the flesh.


    7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."


    Even with that wind example our Lord is giving an example of the attributes of spirit separate from the attributes of the flesh. We are made up of both, flesh and spirit. And to see God's future Kingdom our spirit inside our flesh must... be born again from above (by Heavenly Power from God involving our "spiritual body").


    9 Nicodemus answered and said unto Him, "How can these things be?"
    10 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
    11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
    12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?


    Our Lord Jesus considered this a simple and easy matter to understand, yet Nicodemus couldn't because of the Jews' traditions about the flesh, wrongly thinking flesh is all there is to our makeup which God created us with.
     
  14. Strat

    Strat New Member

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    Your god is you,defined by you,understood by you,glorified by you.
     
  15. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    Do you base your belief on scripture?

    If something misrepresents your Father would you try to correct it?
     
  16. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    Exactly, my friend. Good answer. Man's very first encounter with the enemy, in Eden, revealed his strategy, which was to produce doubt, or even a false perception about the nature of God. The plan is to cause people to turn away from Him. In my encounter with athiests and agnostics, I see that many are rejecting the God that has been presented to them by whomever they heard from in the church. In some cases, I can't say I blame them.
     
  17. Strat

    Strat New Member

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    Yes i do base it on scripture...the only misrepresentations come from people who seek to eliminate what they don't like...why not challeneg the existence of heaven ? why not challenge eternal life ? why only challenge the bad things from a human perspective,the same lanquage is used in reference to hell as as that used in reference to heaven....oh buts right,everything about heaven is correctly translated and everything about Hell isn't.....i guess we should be thankful that God was able to at least preserve some of his word.

    Welcome one and all to the services of the first church of pleasantries and deference where the Rev Feelgood will preach the whole word of God...Lollipops aaannnd Sunshine.
     
  18. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Wow! Both Lollipops aaannnd Sunshine.

    Sunshine might be a little hot, though.
     
  19. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" - Matt. 25:41

    In my time on this site I have heard multiple opinions as to what happens next.
    The most popular have been:

    1. They spent all eternity there.
    2. They are burnt up and there is then nothing left of them.
    3. They spend time suffering there to be 'purified' and then are finally allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven, having been redeemed.

    The last two have no real support for those beliefs, but that doesn't seem to matter.

    There is nothing scripturally to support the idea of "Purgatory" so when Jesus said "Depart from me" and gave no indication that he would ever see them again, it is difficult to even ponder that option.

    I would mention that Jesus spent almost as much time warning against the dangers of Hell as he spent speaking of the rewards of Heaven.

    Seems a strange thing to do if the worse that is going to happen is that you are fried into nothingness and feel nothing for all eternity or will eventually - regardless of the life you lead - be allowed into heaven anyway.
     
  20. Roger

    Roger New Member

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    TruthSeeker2012, Hi

    I have thought these thoughts before, it's Satan trying to prevent you from knowing God. The foundation stone is God's great love "His Heart, Jesus" If you read just three chapters of the bible daily you will be set free of all the wrong words that pop up from questioning the scriptures. "You can be tormented for a week or more but it will pass, if you continue to read the, BIBLE" Seek God's face today, and tomorrow.

    Love God, repeat it, "I love you God" say this to stop entertaining Satan's lies. We can not have two masters, we do not want to write Satan's book, "Satan's Book of Lies." He wants you to think that God is evil. Soon Satan will have to step back because once he has tore down your house he reaches it's foundation and he hears you saying, "I Love You God, I love You God, I Love You God" He knows at this point he can not take you. Therefore read three chapter of The King James Bible daily and you will never fail. We all are sinners, Old testament Saints and New Testament Saints, we need Jesus to get us through the eye of the needle. You have repented when you say the Lord's Prayer and spiritually from your heart, Do not worry to think you have to say I'm sorry constantly for what you are hearing are the arrows of war Satan is throwing at your mind." I rebuke You Satan" Again I repeat do not give up on God continue daily to read three chapters of the KJB or Satan will torment you with lies about God, Forever. Your mind can become a prison of torments.

    Belief.

    -Roger, God's Scribe
     
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