JLB...I dont know...but I thought Heaven was supposed to be a place of total peace and love..how could it be if Abraham could see someone being tormented....I dont think I could ever be happy knowing there was people suffering so forever.
There is no eternal punishment!
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He wasn't in heaven. He was in Paradise. The old testament saints were in Paradise until Jesus descended down into the heart of the earth and took captivity captive and led them to heaven..
The old testament saints were looking forward to Jesus, we are looking back. There has only been one way to God, Jesus.
Paradise was in the heart of the earth at that time.
Thanks, JLB
The old testament saints were looking forward to Jesus, we are looking back. There has only been one way to God, Jesus.
Paradise was in the heart of the earth at that time.
Thanks, JLB
Paradise in the heart of the Earth could be part of Sheol.
Sheol has four levels:
1. Those who live in Paradise auntil the ressurection, from which they will enter Heaven or God's kingdom
2. Those who are in Paradise but willbe judged and might yet loose their salvation (I am uncertain of why this would happen)
Its a bit like a backwards version of purgatory where good people who are not believers are rewarded for their good works and then sent to Hell for not believing.
3. Those people who committed many sins and are being punnished. At the day of judgeemtn they will enter Heaven (this seems purgatorial)
Then there is the dammed who never believed and committed many wicked sins and never repented. They suffer now and at the judgement seat of God they are condemned to the flames of everlasting Hellfire.
Aside from Biblical evidence for everlasting Hell, there are also many testimonies of near death experiences in which people have been clinically dead for a short time and haveactually been to Hell. These terstimonies seek to remind us that what scripture say's about Hell is true and to warn us thatit is a reality.
Sheol has four levels:
1. Those who live in Paradise auntil the ressurection, from which they will enter Heaven or God's kingdom
2. Those who are in Paradise but willbe judged and might yet loose their salvation (I am uncertain of why this would happen)
Its a bit like a backwards version of purgatory where good people who are not believers are rewarded for their good works and then sent to Hell for not believing.
3. Those people who committed many sins and are being punnished. At the day of judgeemtn they will enter Heaven (this seems purgatorial)
Then there is the dammed who never believed and committed many wicked sins and never repented. They suffer now and at the judgement seat of God they are condemned to the flames of everlasting Hellfire.
Aside from Biblical evidence for everlasting Hell, there are also many testimonies of near death experiences in which people have been clinically dead for a short time and haveactually been to Hell. These terstimonies seek to remind us that what scripture say's about Hell is true and to warn us thatit is a reality.
The abode called 'hell' is a place of separation in the heavenly. Rev.12:7-10 reveals Satan and his angels are in the heavenly when they are cast down to this earth. Rev.12:10 when read closely reveals Satan stands in Heaven as the "accuser of our brethren", which definitely shows him as God's enemy while in the heavenly.
The idea of hell being down in the earth is an expression for the devil and his being assigned in lowness, to a place of separation away from God in the heavenly. What our Lord Jesus showed in Luke 16 about the idea of a heavenly separation also reveals this. It's also revealed another way involving the future when the devil and his angels are cast out of the heavenly down to this earth for the last days tribulation time. That's what the Rev.12:7-17 Scripture is actually about.
There's only 2 dimensions of existence per God's Word, this earthy and the heavenly. To be cast out of one means being in the other. This is what Paul meant when he revealed in 2 Cor.5 that to be absent from the body (flesh) is to be present with The Lord.
2 Cor 5:6
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(KJV)
The idea of hell being down in the earth is an expression for the devil and his being assigned in lowness, to a place of separation away from God in the heavenly. What our Lord Jesus showed in Luke 16 about the idea of a heavenly separation also reveals this. It's also revealed another way involving the future when the devil and his angels are cast out of the heavenly down to this earth for the last days tribulation time. That's what the Rev.12:7-17 Scripture is actually about.
There's only 2 dimensions of existence per God's Word, this earthy and the heavenly. To be cast out of one means being in the other. This is what Paul meant when he revealed in 2 Cor.5 that to be absent from the body (flesh) is to be present with The Lord.
2 Cor 5:6
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(KJV)
In teh Apostles Creed we are told that Jesus descended into Hell before his resurrection.
In some versions however, it says that he descended to the dead rather than saying Hell.
Just where did Jesus go at this time? I know that the word used here was Hades, but does that mean he went to a kind of holding place for the dead or into a place of punnishments.
Also, many Chriastians (Catholics in particular) believe that while he was there he rescued all the rightious people who died before he was born e.g. Adam and Eve, David, Solomon, Abraham etc. I find it hard to imagine these people in a palce of punnishment.
In some versions however, it says that he descended to the dead rather than saying Hell.
Just where did Jesus go at this time? I know that the word used here was Hades, but does that mean he went to a kind of holding place for the dead or into a place of punnishments.
Also, many Chriastians (Catholics in particular) believe that while he was there he rescued all the rightious people who died before he was born e.g. Adam and Eve, David, Solomon, Abraham etc. I find it hard to imagine these people in a palce of punnishment.
They were in Paradise, separated by a great gulf - not in hell
24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Well, it is a nice idea, but it tends to foster relativism.
I do not think this portrayal of the afterlife was meant to be literal
Golly, I don't think I'm even gonna contend this! lol.
I really don't care whether it's eternal or temporary. . . . . .
I'm NOT taking the risk!
Oh, and I certainly won't be making any moves based on an extremely complex and in-depth investigation of 'eternal' with loads of rigmarole. That is more than one bridge too far. Maybe fifty?
I really don't care whether it's eternal or temporary. . . . . .
I'm NOT taking the risk!
Oh, and I certainly won't be making any moves based on an extremely complex and in-depth investigation of 'eternal' with loads of rigmarole. That is more than one bridge too far. Maybe fifty?
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Hell is a place for people who choose to remain unredeemed. They choose separation. The place doesn't matter - it is the torment of being separated that is described as burning and eternal fire - I have to admit that I believe the Bible - Hell is a reality, but I hope I am wrong.
Not all the people in hell chose Hell. What about remote tribes in palces like Borneo or in the Amazon rainforest who will never get to hear the Gospel. They won'tmake a choice but because their not Christians then they'll have to go to Hell anyway.
I hoe that there is a chance for these peiople, though scripture has nothing to day about their situation.
Also I urge anyone who doesn't believe in Hell to look at the near death experiences on youtube.
I hoe that there is a chance for these peiople, though scripture has nothing to day about their situation.
Also I urge anyone who doesn't believe in Hell to look at the near death experiences on youtube.
I believe we should remember what The Lord told us when he said that the unjust is already condemned – in this life. He will not see the light, and not being able to come to the light is the worst punishment there is (John 3:16-21). The unjust experience a living Hell, tormented by his conscience. The fire is the conscience.
The fire is the conscience, and made eternal the unjust has really made it.
The fire is the conscience, and made eternal the unjust has really made it.
In Acts 24:15, Apostle Paul made the statement that he had 'hope' there will be both a resurrection of the just... AND of the unjust.
If all the unjust are already judged to perish, then Paul would have never said such a thing; nor would he have attached an idea like 'hope' to it.
Thankfully, the ONLY ones as of today that are already judged and sentenced to perish are Satan and his angels. Not even Judas Iscariot has been judged to perish yet. None born flesh are judged to perish until the Great White Throne Judgment at the END of Christ's future "thousand years" reign.
If all the unjust are already judged to perish, then Paul would have never said such a thing; nor would he have attached an idea like 'hope' to it.
Thankfully, the ONLY ones as of today that are already judged and sentenced to perish are Satan and his angels. Not even Judas Iscariot has been judged to perish yet. None born flesh are judged to perish until the Great White Throne Judgment at the END of Christ's future "thousand years" reign.
Rach,
Truth is correct, even if you follow Papal doctrine, which is apostacy in the eyes of God. Remember salvation is only for those who follow the the laws of God and do His will.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
Truth is correct, even if you follow Papal doctrine, which is apostacy in the eyes of God. Remember salvation is only for those who follow the the laws of God and do His will.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
Remember the words of Christ Himself when He said -
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
By saying "in the age to come" He is alluding to the fact that you can be punished during this age, yet be forgiven or pardoned in the age to come.
Thanks, JLB
The exact words of Jesus in that passage do not indicate forgivenenss in the age to come. But if there is such a thing, there would be mention of it elswhere in scripture. Please show us those references.
On the other hand, if one is forgiven in this age, it does carry over into the age to come. This is what the scripture does indicate; that whatever state we are in when we pass on, this will not change. It is far more likely that this is what Jesus was alluding to.
As for Paul's statement in Acts 24:15, we know that there are two separate resurrections that take place. The first one includes those who reign with Christ for a thousand years. Over such the second death has no power (Rev.20:6).
In Paul's account of the resurrection, he makes no mention of the unjust (1Cor.ch.15). He is speaking there of the first resurrection at Christ's coming, which includes all who are in Christ (vs.21-23).
The resurrection of the unjust is the second resurrection, and happens at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, likely because there is a final rebellion that takes place at that time. So they are raised to the judgment at the Great White Throne, where all are cast into the Lake of Fire together.
In your opinion, what does it mean to receive forgiveness "in the age to come".
Thanks, JLB
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
God is Just - do you really believe He would send someone to Hell who had no chance to hear his word?
Study the Books of Isaiah and Ezekiel. It's there, but probably not in the sense you might expect. Apostle Paul alluded to it in part at the end of Romans 11 about all Israel being saved after he had revealed how God had for this present world blinded Israel in part against The Gospel.
Naturally so, and that's basically the only side of the matter which the Churches preach. But any Bible student can keep reading for theirselves and discover there's going to be a thousand years reign by Christ and His elect over the nations with "a rod of iron". So if sinners today die without Christ never to be given to know His Truth, then what's that coming Millennium reign for? Why wouldn't God just end all the unjust at Christ's return and then take us immediately into His Eternity? Obviously, God's Word has more to say on that matter which the Churches don't preach. That may be why you have a gap in your understanding about this.
That interpretation is a common tradition about Rev.20, and it's not entirely accurate. In John 5:28-29 Jesus said there will be 2 types of resurrection at His coming, one for the just and one for the unjust. That's what Paul's hope was about in Acts 24:15 concerning the unjust, that some of them per chance would saved in Christ's Millennium reign.
Isa 29:22-24
22 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale.
23 But when he seeth his children, the work of Mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify My name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.
24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.
(KJV)
1 Cor 5:4-5
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(KJV)
The "day of the Lord Jesus" is about Christ's future Millennium reign. Paul was commending that believer in 1 Cor.5 who was having sexual intercourse with his own mother into the hands of Satan, separating him away from the Church at Corinth.
No, he covered a little about the resurrection of damnation there in 1 Cor.15 also; he just didn't use that type of terminology. And it's especially discerned in the Greek verses like 1 Cor.15:53-54. Back at verses 45-51 he also hinted at the resurrection of the unjust, simply because the unjust are included with those who have borne the image of the earthy, and those like Adam being made a living soul. In 1 Cor.15:51 he said "all" shall be changed. Since he had covered the idea of all men in the previous part, that must be understood to mean all men, and not just those in Christ Jesus.
In the Greek of 1 Cor.15:53-54, Paul stated 4 separate Greek words with 4 distinct meanings involving the 'change' of 2 parts of our being, our body of "corruption" to one of "incorruption", and then our soul ("this mortal") must "put on immortality". That's 2 distinct changes required to have Eternal Life through Christ Jesus, one to our flesh and the other to our spirit that's inside our flesh. The resurrection of damnation will only experience the 1st change. One can be in the heavenly "spiritual body" state and still be subject to the "second death", for it means one's soul still has not put on immortality through Christ Jesus. You do understand that the "resurrection of damnation" Jesus declared means the unjust in resurrected type bodies don't you?
No, it's not the inferred second resurrection. The "resurrection of damnation" happens at the start of Christ's Millennium, at His coming, like He said in John 5:28-29. That's what those in the "outer darkness" is about. See Rev.22:14-15 also about that separation during His future thousand years reign.
Some of this was first given through God's Old Testament prophets, and that's where Apostle Paul was pulling from with a lot of it. The Isaiah 25 Scripture is where Paul got the teaching of death being swallowed up in victory. So surely he assumed that we would go back and study the Old Testament Scriptures about this matter of the resurrection that he covered. How many have done that OT study today? How many Churches do that? What are they teaching instead? So if all this sounds foreign to you, that's why.
I know it doesn't sound right Aspen but the only way to the father is through the son. So if they've never heard of Jesus how can they do this? Maybe they go to Limbo or if they do get to heaven they won';t see the beatific vision.
In my observation of scripture, this does not apply do anyone in this age. Forgiveness happens here. The benefits of it will carry over into the next age. If the age to come refers to the thousand year reign of Christ, I am open. However, no one here will be in need of forgiveness then. We will be resurrected in our new body before then. This is the result of having been forgiven.
I suggest you reread the passage. Jesus was speaking of those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit in this age, and is telling them that those will not be forgiven that offense, period. Not now, not ever. To read any more into that one, must at least offer proof of their conclusions. Does the bible expand on this idea of forgiveness in the next age? I am not inclined to guess or contrive an opinion.
Thanks brother. I appreciate your reply. I disagree with parts of it, though. However, I see that this may take some quality time to reply to, so will come back when I have more time. Hopefull later today. Howie
In your opinion, I have a gap in my understanding. What makes you think that the unjust will be resurrected to live in the millenium reign? The bible says it is appointed for man once to die and after that, the judgment (Heb.9:27). We do know there is a second death after the judgment. That's two by my count. One before the judgment, and one after. And we also know that the judgment occurs after the millenium reign.
Well...John5:28,29 makes no mention of the second coming. Did Jesus intend to put the same time frame on both resurrections? Or was He simply stating that there would be one for both the just and unjust?
As for Paul's hope... It has come to my attention that much of the world has altered the meaning of the word hope. We use it differently now than even a few years ago. In a sentence, one might say.." I hope I win the lottery". This is a wish or desire. That is not what hope meant as it was used in the translation of the bible. The best description of the word is that it means the anticipation of a future event. Paul's statement made no mention of a desire to see the unjust turned to God after their resurrection. It just doesn't say that. He simply said that he had this hope (anticipation), that there will be a resurrection for the just and the unjust. Why assume anything further than that? The passage gives no room for such assumption.
This passage does not refer to the unjust, that is those who die without Christ. He is speaking of His elect. I'm sure both you and I will yet learn doctrine in the next life.
Again, this is speaking of a brother who is in sin. A careful study of Paul's letters will reveal his mind on the matter, that there are two opposing parts to the believer; the flesh and the spirit. Paul exhorts his readers to walk according to the spirit, to put off the old man and put on the new man. The destruction of the flesh is inevitable in all of us, for flesh and blood cannot inherit life. We have this treasure in temporary earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7). This passage does not refer to the "unjust" who are raised. The day of the Lord Jesus is most certainly the day of His return. Read Paul's wording to the Thess. church. He does not use this term in regards to the thousand year reign.
In 1Cor.15, Paul was speaking entirely about those who are in Christ, in his description of the new body we receive. He said that mortality would put on immortality. This lines up with Rev.20, where we find that for those in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. In John6:50,51, Jesus is specific in stating that it is only those who partake of Him who live forever and not die. Therefore, the unjust (unsaved) will not receive the new immortal body described by Paul in 1Cor.15.
Says who? Why start at vs.53? The context makes no mention of two types of resurrections for two types of humans (saved and lost). I am not interested in putting words in Paul's mouth here. In vs. 35, he announces the context... how are the dead raised up , and with what body will they come? And after the answer to that question is expained, the conclusion in vs.54... death is swallowed up in victory.
So now what? We are to apply the same announcement of victory to the unjust as well? I don't think so. There is a second death which has no power over those raised in Christ.
If we look at the account of the rich man and Lazarus, we see that before the resurrection, the dead go to two possible fates. In Math.10:28, Jesus speaks of a death of the body but not the soul. The soul lives on. For the unjust, they will be in outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. There will be mental anguish. But God will eventually destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (the Lake of Fire). Those in Hades are not resurrected. The account in Rev.22, makes no reference to resurrected people. That is an assumption.
Hey, two can use that termonology. Sounds as though what I am saying is a little foreign to you as well. Why assume I have not studied the old testament? Why assume that just because a person disagrees with your conclusions, that they are in a church that does not teach the old testament?
This has been stimulating. I do not take ownership of the truth. I am still open and will not take offense at another's opinion or belief. Blessings to you, Howie
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