There is no eternal punishment!

[brightmorningstar]

Caffus,

Any human understand the Bible completly and were it came from who translated it put it together extra? I really dont think so but I'm sure there is poeple who think they do.

then you would hardly be in a position to make any of your own personal comments on what the Bible says. Yet you do.
No one is claiming they understand completely, you are imply they dont understand at all.

Every HUman should be concerned becuase of love...noone who has love in his heart would want anyone to suffer eternally with out chance of redemtion. Endless punishment is Piontless punishment it is useless and makes no sense to me.

I agree, any one who has love in their heart wont want eternal suffering...even for Hitler. As a matter of interest, how do you feel about the prospect of Hitler spending eternity in glory with God?

 

[Caffus]

If Hitler would allow himself to be purged of his evilness....God can change his heart and be could become a fully loving being...it would be wrong of me to hold Hitlers past evilness agianst him if he was to be redeemed. Jesus died so he could save us from eternal death...so we could all have the chance to have eternal life. I would not deny that chance to any being after my Lord suffered and died to save them.

 

[Templar81]

I havn't read all the posts on here so pelase excuse me if I'm going over ground that's allready been covered.

Truthseeker! I must say that I think you've put together an interesting thread, the issue of wether Hell is eternal or not or wether there even is a Hell is worth much consideration. Reading you posts and aprticualrly your openning one I almsot feel like I'd like to agree but something holds me back.

And that is that the CHurch has always taught that there is a Hell, that it isan inferno and that it alsts forever. The early church (pre St Jeropme) established this belief before the Bible was put into Latin, when the language of the vast majority of Churchman was Greek and they could read most of the New Testament in its original language. The only people in the first few centuries of CHristianity that did not teach the doctrine of eternal hellfire were all deemd to be heretical by the Catholic Church, which is the Church that operatesas Christ's representative on earth, through apostallic succession.

Another neccessary poitn is that the Greek Orthodox Church, which continues to read the New Testament in the original language to this day and has done for centuries does teach that there is a Hell, that it is forever and that it is an inferno.

So I would therefore say that the authority in this case is with the CHruch, even over scripture since the Church is what dfines scripture and is what compiled it in the first place.

Just my two cents (pence)

 

[Hawkins]

I havn't read all the posts on here so pelase excuse me if I'm going over ground that's allready been covered.

Truthseeker! I must say that I think you've put together an interesting thread, the issue of wether Hell is eternal or not or wether there even is a Hell is worth much consideration. Reading you posts and aprticualrly your openning one I almsot feel like I'd like to agree but something holds me back.

And that is that the CHurch has always taught that there is a Hell, that it isan inferno and that it alsts forever. The early church (pre St Jeropme) established this belief before the Bible was put into Latin, when the language of the vast majority of Churchman was Greek and they could read most of the New Testament in its original language. The only people in the first few centuries of CHristianity that did not teach the doctrine of eternal hellfire were all deemd to be heretical by the Catholic Church, which is the Church that operatesas Christ's representative on earth, through apostallic succession.

Another neccessary poitn is that the Greek Orthodox Church, which continues to read the New Testament in the original language to this day and has done for centuries does teach that there is a Hell, that it is forever and that it is an inferno.

So I would therefore say that the authority in this case is with the CHruch, even over scripture since the Church is what dfines scripture and is what compiled it in the first place.

Just my two cents (pence)

You are right. It is in the end a matter what people want to believe instead of what God/Bible/Church would like to say.

Humans are arrogant. So they don't want to believe an eternal hell. They thus judge God to say that if there's an eternal hell there, God must have done something wrong.

We humans are not in any position to judge God even when God said that hell is eternal. If hell exists and is eternal, God has a reason to let it be so, with or without human understanding. Humans with little faith, with self-righteousness will lose their faith over this.

Satan will be burnt forever, you may have fewer problems with this. However, after leaving God, no one will be able to guarantee that humans won't go beyond what the fallen angels will be. They can be more evil in nature than Satan in a sense that they are designed with a full blown freewill.

It's one way ticket if you decide to leave God. That's actually how freewill is designed. That is, in front of true choices, true freewill will divide.

God's plan is to build an eternal realm named the Kingdom in Heaven. And it was proven through Adam that men with little faith and unwilling to be obedient will have to be driven out of God's Kingdom (like Eden).

Humans are getting worse and worse after that, as a matter of freewill that God ever decided to destroy them all in Noah's age. That actually reflected that when leaving God's Kingdom (whether it is Satan or humans), humans can't go any better. The analogy is that when leaves detached from the trunk of the tree, they keep decaying to the point that they will be burnt.

The point is, you will be in a complete separation from God because you are not selected to be in Heaven (because you won't be able to live there due to the lack of faith and obedience), and while love belongs to God so in such a separation you no longer have love inside you. The only way you can be is just like being prophesied, you will lose all you humanity over time and will become a satan yourself.

God let you be what you are when you are still human, once you changed to a demon of some kind. It doesn't matter if you are burnt or not, or you are burnt forever or not.


The whole situation is actually repeating Adam's fault, as Adam (humans) rather wanted to believe that "we are not surely die". It's just another fruit on the tree for humans to choose the same by neglecting what God says, due to the lack of faith and obedience, relying on the knowledge of self-righteousness (right or wrong),

Moreover, "no hell' is actually an anti-Christ doctrine. Because the Bible clearly says that you need to believe in Jesus and abide by the New Covenant to be saved. However the 'no hell' doctrine ridicules what the Bible says by conveying the message that "You will be saved anyway, with or without Jesus Christ, with or without the New Covenant".

In a nutshell, under the influence of the anti-Christ/Satan, you taste the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil again to say that "you will not surely die".

 

[Brothertom]

"Tom would you elaborate on this part about the angels you saw.

Thanks,".............. JLB

I saw rectangle mausoleum type holes carved out of the rock. They were perhaps 50 feet long and 30 feet wide, and within them there was one angel chained. I cannot be sure of the sizes, as there was nothing there to compare the length and width.

The angels we humanoid, but one glance and I knew. Their faces were fierce and every feature was larger, and more defined than mankind. They could have stood 40 feet high, and their arms and legs had slightly different dimensions than men, and I only used Ruebens work as a similarity, to compare. These appeared to be male, though naked, I saw no genitalia. They were chained with cuffs on their feet and wrists, and they writhed, constantly...rolling up and down and side to side, struggling to get free.

This was a floor area I suppose, and they were entombed side by side...I only saw two clearly, but there may have been more. They were raging, and very unhappy; murderously so. I had no revelation of their identity, may have thought they may have been;

“Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind."

These are the violent War Demons that are being "prepared"......Perhaps a few thousand years of being chained to really get their blood boiling?....It could be them....

Or;......." I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

" And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL FIRE."

These could as well be the angels that began to rape the daughters of mankind, that produced the Giant bastard/race of Goliath and company. These so grieved God in their sin, that he would not allow them access to even tempt man; but continually chained. It may also be them...but I saw them. It proves to me [ the scripture] that Jesus is Lord and ONE TRILLION SATANS and ALL of the demon armies combined cannot meet the power of Jesus, and Our Father. Combined, they are less than chaff in the wind, and a drop in the 55 gallon drum...as nothing before Him. God is limitless; Satan and his armies aren't.

God is but using these wicked for his purposes and completing His will.

 

[Caffus]

Hawkins, For me I am not Judgeing God..I accept I do not understand and I love God regardless and trust He is all Loving , His mercy endures Forever and He is Just
...IF he found it nessasry to make a place of everlasting evil..I am sure He has a good reason for it that I just cant understand until I'm dead. I belive Jesus is the ONLY way to Heaevn...but his Mercy endures forever..who is to say we are ONLY given a choice when our flesh is still alive and we are INGORANT to the whole truth..for noone not one can know for a fact what the real truth is of the afterlife until we are there. You can not have a true choice without full knowlege.
Jesus siad Father Forgive them so they KNOW NOT what they do...as they tortured and killed God. God will answer GOds prayer.

 

[aspen]

You know, not every difference of opinion or question about doctrine in rooted in pride.

Sometimes people are just confused - sometimes they haven't made up their mind - perhaps they worry more about attributing what seems to them as evil traits to a good God.

Every time I run across pride it is found in those who mistake it in themselves for conviction.

 

[Templar81]

We all ahve free will so to choose to follow yourself isntead of God is to leave God. You get the one way ticket to Hell if you die in this state

 

[tallycello]

The problem with most teachings of most church's, is that independent thought is discouraged in deferment to authority of the Pastor, Priest, Deacon etc...Read the Bible , think for yourselves and rethink the illogical views such as "God will punish me forever in my sin."

If God is the God of Love, why would He accept that we would turn away from Him completely and accept that we would choose pure and horrifying pain and torment- even though we cannot even conceive that that is what path we are leading ourselves into!

"If God is for us, who can be against us?" (Rom. 8:31)

Satan has presumably lost his battle, right? So how could any soul, any soul at all be lost in the caverns of Hell for an eternity? God wins, Satan Loses. God wouldn't want us to live in torture for an eternity, its a lie to make us Christians live in fear, live in fear of making the wrong step when the truth is that our God loves us more than that.

 

[Templar81]

I have found a website that gives important biblical infromation aobut Hell and serves to show us that it is a very real place ineed.

http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

 

[JLB]

The problem with most teachings of most church's, is that independent thought is discouraged in deferment to authority of the Pastor, Priest, Deacon etc...Read the Bible , think for yourselves and rethink the illogical views such as "God will punish me forever in my sin."

If God is the God of Love, why would He accept that we would turn away from Him completely and accept that we would choose pure and horrifying pain and torment- even though we cannot even conceive that that is what path we are leading ourselves into!

"If God is for us, who can be against us?" (Rom. 8:31)

Satan has presumably lost his battle, right? So how could any soul, any soul at all be lost in the caverns of Hell for an eternity? God wins, Satan Loses. God wouldn't want us to live in torture for an eternity, its a lie to make us Christians live in fear, live in fear of making the wrong step when the truth is that our God loves us more than that.

Here is some truth you might want to consider.


2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Point # 1 - The falling away. - People turning their backs on The Lord after He gave His Life for them. They chose to go after another god or another religion, whatever the case the term apostasy defines someone who chooses of their own free will to turn away from the faith.

Point # 2 - God himself will send them STRONG DELUSION that they should believe the lie of the man of sin, the son of perdition, the antichrist and follow after him.

Point # 3 - The people clearly didn't want God or His ways nor His righteousness. THEY HAD PLEASURE IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. THEY ARE CONDEMNED OR DAMNED.


I wouldn't allow that type of human reasoning to infect my mind with the poison of the spirit of this age, if I were you.


Thanks, JLB

 

[williemac]

I havn't read all the posts on here so pelase excuse me if I'm going over ground that's allready been covered.

Truthseeker! I must say that I think you've put together an interesting thread, the issue of wether Hell is eternal or not or wether there even is a Hell is worth much consideration. Reading you posts and aprticualrly your openning one I almsot feel like I'd like to agree but something holds me back.

And that is that the CHurch has always taught that there is a Hell, that it isan inferno and that it alsts forever. The early church (pre St Jeropme) established this belief before the Bible was put into Latin, when the language of the vast majority of Churchman was Greek and they could read most of the New Testament in its original language. The only people in the first few centuries of CHristianity that did not teach the doctrine of eternal hellfire were all deemd to be heretical by the Catholic Church, which is the Church that operatesas Christ's representative on earth, through apostallic succession.

Another neccessary poitn is that the Greek Orthodox Church, which continues to read the New Testament in the original language to this day and has done for centuries does teach that there is a Hell, that it is forever and that it is an inferno.

So I would therefore say that the authority in this case is with the CHruch, even over scripture since the Church is what dfines scripture and is what compiled it in the first place.

Just my two cents (pence)

Greetings. I, as well have not read through this thread. So I don't mind potentially repeating things with another who has not read other posts.
I would like to point out that concerning this subject, it is essential that we recognize that there are two separate events, locations, or experiences as it were, that are both translated into English with the word "hell". In Math 10:28, the second one is mentioned with the word "Gehenna". This word is a reference to the Lake of fire, but unfortunately is rendered 'hell' by the translators.

In that passage, Jesus talks of the fact that it is possible for the body to die but not the soul. This is the first death. Those unsaved who die in the first death will find themselves in Hades, also translated as hell. In Hades, there is weeping, gnashing of teeth, and mental anguish, also called torment. This will take place until the Great White Throne Judgment after the thousand year reign of Christ (a long time).

However, Jesus also talks of the second death, where both body and soul are destroyed by God in Gehenna. I have heard all the explanations in regards to how this does not mean what it seems to be saying. But the fact remains, whatever happens to the soul in the first death is not the same as what happens to it in the second. In fact, in that passage, Jesus advises to NOT fear the one who cannot kill the soul.

Simple logic would tell us that if the soul is immortal, then it cannot be killed. And if it cannot be killed then God cannot kill it. Then we ought not to fear Him, as Jesus advised. There is no way to get around this, but I assure you that many are attempting just that in the doctrine of forever torment.

I would like to address all of the passage used to support the forever torment concept. They all can be explained or refuted. However, the passages I use to support eternal death, also called 'annihilation', I would also like to point out. Math.10:28 is just one of them.
Any takers? I would be surprised if my replies are the same as what has already taken place in this thread. I will read through it a bit, this weekend and see.
Blessings, Howie

 

[Templar81]

So some people will die and be punnished, then ressurected, sentenced and punished for all eternity/ So in effect there are two Hells, one that lasts forver and one that does not. So could anyone who goes to Hell prior to them coming before God in judgement, then be sent to Heaven. If so then this could be solid Biblial grounds for Purgatory, since Purgatory for all intents and purposes is a Hell that ends.

Tehn there is Sheol, could this fit in anywhere?

 

[Caffus]

It is NOT ME that I am concerned about....wethier there is a Hell or not...I Love Jesus and I trust Him alone for my salvation...If someone else thinks I'm going to hell becuase I'm unsure is to wether or not there is an eternal punishment..or becuase that makes no sense to me...then...I'm sorry they feel that way...BUT I trust in my Lord Jesus Christ to Save me. I do not think there is enterenal punishment..I belive Jesus died to save us from perishing...and so we could recieve the gift of eternal life with Him and all others who will accept his gift. I am cocerned for others who do not belive....that is WHY I do not WANTto belive in hell, becuase I L OVE people...not becuase I am arrogant and think I know better than God.....he knows all,we dont..if he made a hell Im sure he had good reason there is just no way for a human mind to understand it....until we get to the other side.

 

[williemac]

So some people will die and be punnished, then ressurected, sentenced and punished for all eternity/ So in effect there are two Hells, one that lasts forver and one that does not. So could anyone who goes to Hell prior to them coming before God in judgement, then be sent to Heaven. If so then this could be solid Biblial grounds for Purgatory, since Purgatory for all intents and purposes is a Hell that ends.

Tehn there is Sheol, could this fit in anywhere?

I assume this reply is directed towards my comment above. All I can say about it is that I simply pointed out what the bible tells us. I did not invent the term 'second death'. It is biblical. I did not invent the story of the Great White Throne judgment that occurs after the thousand year reign of Christ. However, in regards to the question of purgatory, I will say that there is no indication that those who are in Hades can escape their fate. I only ask that you don't put words in my mouth. I don't intend to support the notion that there is biblcal ground for purgatory. I simply share what I see in scripture. The bible says that death and Hades will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Does this spell and end to Hades? I think what it does is indicate that the purpose for Hades has a time limit to it, as those who are there will ultimately go someplace else (the Lake of Fire). Pretty clear to me. Howie

 

[Templar81]

I do apologise if I caused any offence. I would never seek to put words in anyone's mouth. Perhaps I just expressed myself poorly.

You see! you may not be looking for biblical grounds for Purgatory but I am becasue I can see that it is hinted throughout scripture, especially in revelations.

BTW I do know which terms are Biblcial and which are not but many people say "Rapture" and I've never found that in scripture.

Once again I didn not eman to antagonise, jsut discuss. I am sad that civilised discussion is so difficult on this forum due to the argumentative nature and trollish behaviour of some of the members.

 

[williemac]

I do apologise if I caused any offence. I would never seek to put words in anyone's mouth. Perhaps I just expressed myself poorly.

You see! you may not be looking for biblical grounds for Purgatory but I am becasue I can see that it is hinted throughout scripture, especially in revelations.

BTW I do know which terms are Biblcial and which are not but many people say "Rapture" and I've never found that in scripture.

Once again I didn not eman to antagonise, jsut discuss. I am sad that civilised discussion is so difficult on this forum due to the argumentative nature and trollish behaviour of some of the members.

Hey, no offense whatsoever. I had merely jumped in to respond to the mention of what has traditionally been taught about hell. Of course it is biblically real. However, other things need to be considered that are also biblically real.

The traditional idea of purgatory as far as I know, is that it applies to those who are considered believers who are destined for eternal life, and has the purpose having a cleansing or correction effect on those before they enter into God's presence. I do not see this in scripture, myself. Further, I do not see a situation where there is a corrective action against the unregenerate once he has left his earthly body in death. It seems at that point, his fate is sealed. So whatever form of purgatory one is leaning on, I have to say I don't see it.

I prefer to hang my doctrine on plainly stated texts and not draw conclusions from vague references. This is where I come from with my stance that for the human being, I do not see any firmly or plainly stated passages that talk of forever torment. But I do see plainly stated passages that talk of living forever as being designated for only those who are in Christ. Case in point; in John 6:50,51, Jesus gives two possibilties; to live forever, or to die. And in John 3:16, to perish is not the same as to have everlasting life. There is no talk of living forever in alternative locations. Jesus gives two scenarios that speak plainly of duration of life, not location.

Blessings, Howie

 

[JLB]

Back on topic Rach, can you please address these verses and explain what they mean and contextualize them for me please:

This is what Bible says will happen to the lost, suffer "death" (Romans 6:23) , suffer "destruction" (Job 21:30), "shall perish" (Psalm 37:20), will "burn" up [Not a root or a branch will be left to them.] (Malachi 4:1), Malachi 4:3 "Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the LORD Almighty.", "shall be destroyed together" (Psalm 37:38), the wicked shall not be (Psa 37:10), will "consume away" (Psalm 37:20), "shall be cut off" (Psalm 37:9), "shall be slain" (Psalm 62:3), God will "destroy" them (Psalm 145:20), "fire will devour them." (Psalm 21:9) They shall be as though they had not been.(Oba 1 16), they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish (Isa 41:11), the wicked be no more (Psa 104:35), the wicked no more (Pro 10:25)

How do you explain those verses?

And please address Hebrews 2:14 as well which talks about Satan being destroyed, can you please explain that verse also and contextualize it for me.

And by the way, There are about 182 clear verses for the destruction of the lost which we can address one by one after you address the ones above please.

I look forward to your reply, thank you.

God bless.

Hebrews 2:14

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

In the context of this discussion, He, Jesus will destroy the devil, who had the power of death.


Here's how the devil will be destroyed, which serves as a pattern for those who follow him.


The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


The devil as well as those who are aligned with him and those who follow him will suffer the burning flame of the lake of fire forever.

Thus says the word of God.


Thanks and God bless you

 

[williemac]

Hebrews 2:14

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

In the context of this discussion, He, Jesus will destroy the devil, who had the power of death.


Here's how the devil will be destroyed, which serves as a pattern for those who follow him.


The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


The devil as well as those who are aligned with him and those who follow him will suffer the burning flame of the lake of fire forever.

Thus says the word of God.


Thanks and God bless you

Greetings, JLB. If I may be so bold as to jump in and say, good reply. May I comment further in regards to this reply?

The three mentioned in this reference are the only three that scripture literally says will be tormented forever. It happens that the Lake of Fire was created for the Devil and his fellow fallen angels. But they are creatures that are not human. Why assume that the Lake of Fire will have the same effect on humans?

It seems to me that in order to experience conscious torment, one must be conscious; one must be alive. However, Adam and Eve were removed from access to the tree of life, lest they eat of it and live forever. (Gen.3:22) Further to that observation, in John 6:50,51, Jesus says that if one partakes of Him, He will live forever and not die. So we have a confirmation that living forever is designated only to those in Christ.

A typical rebuttle to this is to run to other passages that mention things like smoke rising forever, worms that do not die, and fire that is not quenched. But I will head these off by pointing out that none of those things apply directly to humans themselves. They are about smoke, fire, and worms. They do however, indicate the permanency of the fate of the human involved. So what is that fate? What are the wages of sin? Torment? That's not what the bible says. Death!!

Is there human torment? Yes, in Hades. Is there no rest day and night? Yes, in Hades. Is there weeping and gnashing of teeth? Yes, in Hades. Do these exist forever in the case of humans? That is the question.

I have yet to see an intelligent explanation of Math10:28 that successfully (to my satisfaction) refutes the death of the soul in Gehenna (the Lake of Fire). So tell me please, is the soul mortal or immortal? Does a human soul live forever universally, whether saved or lost? Can the human soul be killed?
Blessings, Howie

 

[JLB]

Luke 16:24

Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'