If you have read the book of Revelation, and not understood something, you have read wisely (thoughts?)

[FaithWillDo]

Every single soul ever to exist from Adam and Eve was predestined and place in the Lamb's book of life.

Those who choose God because of free will, will remain in the Lamb's book of life.

Those who reject God because of free will will be removed.

To stay or remain is still an individual's choice. If one cannot choose, then free will does not matter, does it?

If one cannot choose salvation, what is the default position from God's perspective? Were they not still predestined? Who decides for them if not God?

Explain to me how one cannot choose, one does not have free will, and they cannot be coerced by God to even make a choice, even mean?

You are literally saying that God damns the majority to the LOF from the very beginning. They never had a chance to begin with, then explain to people that God is a loving God, but only for a select few who did not have a choice either.

Explain to me why so many verses in Scripture are about making a decision, when you claim no one can decide.

Dear Timtofly,
Your statements above are not taught in scripture.

We "choose" Christ because He gives us the Holy Spirit. Then, from the Spirit within us, our heart and mind is changed. Christ doesn't coerce anyone to make a decision. He changes us from within so that we make the decision He wants.

Also, I personally believe that only about 99.9999%+ of mankind is going to be saved at the end of the final age. Christ loves all mankind but He has only chosen a "few" to be blessed and saved in this present age. They are the Elect and are the First Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind. The full harvest of mankind does not occur until the end of the final age. Why? Because God has decided to do it this way. Mankind has no say in the matter.

You said:
Explain to me why so many verses in Scripture are about making a decision, when you claim no one can decide.

I have been explaining it over and over again to you but you either can't understand what I have said or you just don't want to accept it.

Of course, mankind makes "decisions". However, mankind does not have a "free will" to make those decisions. Those decisions are caused by God.

God is Spirit and the spiritual world happens within mankind. Because mankind is carnal, we have no ability to perceive the spiritual work God is doing within us. From our perspective, we believe that we have made a free will decision, but we haven't.

When we make a decision, we do so "willingly" because Christ has (from His spiritual work) changed our heart and mind to agree with His "will".

God does as He pleases in the hearts and minds of mankind. We do not even have the right to ask God "why doeth thou?" (Dan 4:35). He is God and our Creator. He will make us into whatever creature He decides. And He has decided to make us all into His children. What mankind is going through at this time is the birth process of being born as a child of God. This is the purpose for this creation and God leaves nothing up to chance or up to mankind's "will". This is His creation and not ours.

Joe

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Also, 99.9999%+ of mankind is going to be saved at the end of the final age

And dear FWD, @Timtofly could also say the same - Neither is your statement "taught In Scripture"? Now what?

 

[FaithWillDo]

And dear FWD, @Timtofly could also say the same - Neither is your statement "taught In Scripture"? Now what?

Dear GRACE ambassador,
I did not claim that it is taught in scripture. It is my personal estimate based upon world population numbers and how few believers are actually chosen from the "many". It could just as well be 99.999% or even 99.99%. But one thing is certain to me, it is a very high percentage of mankind who will have to wait until the end of the final age for their salvation.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Most of mankind is not "called". Then out of the "many" who are called, only a "few" have been chosen to be saved in this present age.

Up until the Gentiles were included under the New Covenant, the only people who had been called out from the world was the Nation of Israel.

From the Nation of Israel, only 120 persons were initially "chosen" to be First Fruits (Acts 1:15). It is debatable on the population of the Nation of Israel at that time but 120 can only be a small fraction of whatever that total actually was.

As for Timtofly, his beliefs are not taught in scripture because his beliefs are contradicted by scripture. I quoted numerous such verses. And because scripture does not contradict itself, his beliefs cannot be taught in scripture.

Timtofly mostly did not quote scripture to support his beliefs. His main argument from scripture was that mankind can make "choices". Certainly, scripture teaches that truth. However, the point he does not want to accept is that the choices which mankind makes are caused by God. I quoted many of those scriptures which say so and he has no answer for them.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Having the ability to make "choices" does not mean a person has a "free will".

Finally, I just edited the post which contains my comment on the 99.9999% so as to make it clearer.

Thanks for your comment.

Joe

 

[Timtofly]

However, the point he does not want to accept is that the choices which mankind makes are caused by God. I quoted many of those scriptures which say so and he has no answer for them.

Because God did not cause the choice.

All those verses apply after the choice is made by each individual. When a person chooses God, then God does give them the power to live for God.

You are putting the power before the choice.

When you place the power before the choice that is coercion.

The verse does not say that God gave people the power to receive Him. It says that the many that received Him, to them He gave the power. One has to receive God, and that is the free will choice.

Many are called, few are chosen. You change that around to only the elect are chosen, thus only a few are the elect. The elect are every single human on earth. God elected every one by dying on the Cross for every one.

The many are all who hear the gospel. The free will choice is about those who do accept the gift of salvation. That is only a few out of all those elected.

The few who choose are still chosen by God. That never changed once in the process. They are still elect. That never changed once in the process. Nor did God coerce them into salvation. That never changed in the whole process.

What remains constant is that the majority of the elect exercised their free will and were allowed to reject God and end up in the LOF.

Many also asked why is not every one called? Why does it seem God does not care? Many don't realize that the Holy Spirit works in every single soul from conception. God is at work calling but the cares of life drown out this calling. That is why Paul wrote Romans 10:13-18

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."

Paul seems to think that all have heard.

Since God is not willing that any should perish, He was the means of salvation. No one else could take sin away. But many seem to deny that God placed the Holy Spirit also as a witness. Not just after conversion. Conversion is when a soul finally submits to the calling of the Holy Spirit.

Many think they can fall in and out of submission. That still goes back to few are chosen. People don't get the luxury of changing their minds. Either they are in or out. Free will is not a license to sin and keep sinning. Those who think they can enjoy both sin and God are deceiving themselves and the truth is not in them. They are not born from above, but still exercising their right to follow their own will. Free will is only the ability to choose without coercion.

Free will is not the ability to change one's mind over and over again. That is not in the definition. Free will does not over ride Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Free will remains as long as the flesh is held in check. Salvation does not remove one from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Only physical death can do that. Free will does not reduce the power of our fleshly desires. As pointed out one can loose the ability to choose. God can take away that choice. Those without free will don't get a second chance. Free will is not defined as coming and going. But God won't let any human just get away with destroying His creation. God can step in and force people who are reprobate to remain limited in their actions. He certainly does not force them into subjection, nor back into a choice leading to salvation. Read Daniel 4.

 

[Timtofly]

Having the ability to make "choices" does not mean a person has a "free will".

What is the definition of free will? Your point would be that no one can even make choices. You are not sticking to the definition, and then declaring free will null and void.

I am not convinced that God does all the choosing in life.

We make choices all the time.

Once again you force the Word of God to say we are just a predetermined program.

If that were the case then Jesus is not God, and God never provided the gift of salvation. You just think that happened, since it is part of a programmed script.

That would make God narcissistic, cruel, and practically evil to only force some people into believing a lie, that never really was intended to provide salvation any way.

Creation is just one 6,000 year long evil dictatorship, and God forces some people to think He is good and kind. That is your pre-determined creation. Then God forces some to do nothing, while the rest is destroyed in the LOF.

In fact, in your world, choices don't even make a difference. Every thing would happen the same way no matter what. There would be no cause and effect at all. No one would have a will at all. Only God is doing all the action, and you are just a puppet on a string.

Besides we don't have a free will. No such thing as a free will. The term free will is not something you own. A will has consequences when it is exercised. The term free will is not just about exercising one's will. That is the wrong idea, that I have been telling you to avoid. The term free will only deals with the ability to choose without any outside coercion.

No one is forcing you to reply to this post. That is your ability to choose without coercion.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Free will is not the ability to change one's mind over and over again. That is not in the definition. Free will does not over ride Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Free will remains as long as the flesh is held in check.

Dear Timtofly,
It is most telling that you did not support anything you said in your post with scripture. Most of your statements have no scriptural support at all. Your beliefs are coming from mankind's carnal reasoning and from the deceptions of Satan.

You said:
Because God did not cause the choice.

That is not what scripture teaches:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

You said:
When a person chooses God, then God does give them the power to live for God.

Yes, that is true. However, their "choice" comes from God and not from their supposed "free will" ability.

Unless Christ intervenes within a person and gives them the Holy Spirit of Promise, they will reject Him due to their carnal spiritual condition they have from birth:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

You said:
The verse does not say that God gave people the power to receive Him. It says that the many that received Him, to them He gave the power. One has to receive God, and that is the free will choice.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The "power" is the Holy Spirit. It is what causes the new birth. This new birth happens because the person received Christ. When a person receives Christ, it happens NOT because of their "will", it happens because of God's "will". You are twisting the clear teaching of the scripture to accommodate your pre-existing belief.

You said:
Many are called, few are chosen. You change that around to only the elect are chosen, thus only a few are the elect. The elect are every single human on earth. God elected every one by dying on the Cross for every one.

The Elect are chosen by God. They are the heirs who have been chosen to receive the blessings of God.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Esau was not chosen by God to be one of the Elect. Why? So that the purpose of God according to the "election" might stand.

Rom 11:15 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The "remnant" are the few who have been elected for salvation is this age.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The "election" has obtained salvation and God blinded the rest so that they could not obtain it. The Elect are chosen by God "from the foundation of the world" for this blessing:

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Most of mankind is not even "called". And from those who are "called", only a "few" are chosen. You have no scripture which says differently.

You said:
Free will is not the ability to change one's mind over and over again. That is not in the definition. Free will does not over ride Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Free will remains as long as the flesh is held in check.

This statement is very confusing. It is an extra-biblical teaching and comes from the reasoning of the carnal mind.

Here is the definition of Free Will:

The belief that people have a choice in what they do and that their choices have not been decided in advance by God or by any other power.

Where did the belief in free will come from?

It did not come from scripture. Here is what I found:

The notion of free will has been attributed to both Aristotle (fourth century BCE) and Epictetus (1st century CE).

The church believes that for a person to be sent to hell, they have to be personally responsible for being sent there, otherwise, it would be unjust and unfair. For this reason, the Doctrine of Free Will was created and accepted into the church so as to support their false teaching on hell.

Shortly after the time of the Apostles, the church become apostate and void of truth.

The whole loaf of bread which is now being consumed by the church is secretly leavened:

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

For that reason, there is no truth in the church as there was in the beginning. The wolves came into the church just as Paul said:

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

The Doctrines of Free Will and Hell are "leavened bread" and do not come from the teachings of scripture. They were created by the "wolves" who came into the church.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

What is the definition of free will? Your point would be that no one can even make choices. You are not sticking to the definition, and then declaring free will null and void.

I am not convinced that God does all the choosing in life.

We make choices all the time.

Once again you force the Word of God to say we are just a predetermined program.

If that were the case then Jesus is not God, and God never provided the gift of salvation. You just think that happened, since it is part of a programmed script.

That would make God narcissistic, cruel, and practically evil to only force some people into believing a lie, that never really was intended to provide salvation any way.

Creation is just one 6,000 year long evil dictatorship, and God forces some people to think He is good and kind. That is your pre-determined creation. Then God forces some to do nothing, while the rest is destroyed in the LOF.

In fact, in your world, choices don't even make a difference. Every thing would happen the same way no matter what. There would be no cause and effect at all. No one would have a will at all. Only God is doing all the action, and you are just a puppet on a string.

Besides we don't have a free will. No such thing as a free will. The term free will is not something you own. A will has consequences when it is exercised. The term free will is not just about exercising one's will. That is the wrong idea, that I have been telling you to avoid. The term free will only deals with the ability to choose without any outside coercion.

No one is forcing you to reply to this post. That is your ability to choose without coercion.

Dear Timtofly,
There is no reason to continue our discussion since your understanding of "truth" is not coming from scripture.

I have shown you the verses which contradict your beliefs but you refuse to accept what they teach. I can do nothing more.

Joe

 

[Timtofly]

Dear Timtofly,
It is most telling that you did not support anything you said in your post with scripture. Most of your statements have no scriptural support at all. Your beliefs are coming from mankind's carnal reasoning and from the deceptions of Satan.

You said:
Because God did not cause the choice.

That is not what scripture teaches:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

You said:
When a person chooses God, then God does give them the power to live for God.

Yes, that is true. However, their "choice" comes from God and not from their supposed "free will" ability.

Unless Christ intervenes within a person and gives them the Holy Spirit of Promise, they will reject Him due to their carnal spiritual condition they have from birth:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

You said:
The verse does not say that God gave people the power to receive Him. It says that the many that received Him, to them He gave the power. One has to receive God, and that is the free will choice.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The "power" is the Holy Spirit. It is what causes the new birth. This new birth happens because the person received Christ. When a person receives Christ, it happens NOT because of their "will", it happens because of God's "will". You are twisting the clear teaching of the scripture to accommodate your pre-existing belief.

You said:
Many are called, few are chosen. You change that around to only the elect are chosen, thus only a few are the elect. The elect are every single human on earth. God elected every one by dying on the Cross for every one.

The Elect are chosen by God. They are the heirs who have been chosen to receive the blessings of God.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Esau was not chosen by God to be one of the Elect. Why? So that the purpose of God according to the "election" might stand.

Rom 11:15 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The "remnant" are the few who have been elected for salvation is this age.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The "election" has obtained salvation and God blinded the rest so that they could not obtain it. The Elect are chosen by God "from the foundation of the world" for this blessing:

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Most of mankind is not even "called". And from those who are "called", only a "few" are chosen. You have no scripture which says differently.

You said:
Free will is not the ability to change one's mind over and over again. That is not in the definition. Free will does not over ride Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Free will remains as long as the flesh is held in check.

This statement is very confusing. It is an extra-biblical teaching and comes from the reasoning of the carnal mind.

Here is the definition of Free Will:

The belief that people have a choice in what they do and that their choices have not been decided in advance by God or by any other power.

Where did the belief in free will come from?

It did not come from scripture. Here is what I found:

The notion of free will has been attributed to both Aristotle (fourth century BCE) and Epictetus (1st century CE).

The church believes that for a person to be sent to hell, they have to be personally responsible for being sent there, otherwise, it would be unjust and unfair. For this reason, the Doctrine of Free Will was created and accepted into the church so as to support their false teaching on hell.

Shortly after the time of the Apostles, the church become apostate and void of truth.

The whole loaf of bread which is now being consumed by the church is secretly leavened:

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

For that reason, there is no truth in the church as there was in the beginning. The wolves came into the church just as Paul said:

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

The Doctrines of Free Will and Hell are "leavened bread" and do not come from the teachings of scripture. They were created by the "wolves" who came into the church.

Joe

I understand all your verses. They deal with a person who has submitted to God.

You are the one with a carnal mindset that states God is just a computer programmer who decides every single thing that happens on the earth.

God created this existence to be self sufficient without Him. That is why Adam chose to disobey, because he was deceieved and thought he could do better than God.

You are not paying attention to all those verses. You are interpreting them through Adam's fallen nature, and human theology.

I am going with the same verses you already posted.

I have no clue what you keep calling the Doctrine of Free Will. Do you have a Scripture for that? You are the one introducing human theology into this topic.

 

[strepho]

After 20 years, pupils sit under shepherd at whatever churches. They should be teachers of God's word, documentation, hebrews chapter 5. Daniel chapter 7 correlates with revelation chapter 13. It's one world political system, the beast system. Isaiah chapter 29, God put blinders on many seers eyes, spirtual blindness. Many priests and pastors can't understand revelation or much of the bible. Revelation chapter 13 and Daniel chapter 7 is about political one world system. At the 6th trump, it receives deadly wound. Satan as antichrist heals deadly wound by establishing world peace. Its 5 month period, read revelation chapter 9:5. James chapter 3, those who claim to be shepherds, will be strictly judged by Jesus near future. Jeremiah chapter 25, Jesus is coming 7th trump to put stop to the hunting grounds of false brethren. The fake shepherds go with satan into the pit, 7th trump. This begins the Millennium. I documented this.

 

[FaithWillDo]

After 20 years, pupils sit under shepherd at whatever churches. They should be teachers of God's word, documentation, hebrews chapter 5. Daniel chapter 7 correlates with revelation chapter 13. It's one world political system, the beast system. Isaiah chapter 29, God put blinders on many seers eyes, spirtual blindness. Many priests and pastors can't understand revelation or much of the bible. Revelation chapter 13 and Daniel chapter 7 is about political one world system. At the 6th trump, it receives deadly wound. Satan as antichrist heals deadly wound by establishing world peace. Its 5 month period, read revelation chapter 9:5. James chapter 3, those who claim to be shepherds, will be strictly judged by Jesus near future. Jeremiah chapter 25, Jesus is coming 7th trump to put stop to the hunting grounds of false brethren. The fake shepherds go with satan into the pit, 7th trump. This begins the Millennium. I documented this.

Dear Strepho,
The book of Revelation teaches the pathway to salvation the Elect will travel and complete during their lifetimes. It is not a book about future world events as you stated above. The events which are taught in Revelation are spiritual and happen within an Elect believer. The Elect will "keep the sayings of the prophecies". If a believer does not keep them, they are not one of the Elect.

Christ's second coming is likewise a spiritual event within an Elect believer. This is a believer's moment of salvation and is the same event experienced by the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost.

The book of Revelation also says that Christ's second coming is a reoccurring event. For that reason, Christ's second coming is said to be "is, was and will be coming" and that He will come "quickly". If the events are outward one time future events as you believe, those verses which make these statements cannot be true.

You are understanding scripture in an outward & physical way when scripture should be understood in an inward & spiritual way. The Old Covenant is outward and physical but the New Covenant is not.

Joe

 

[Gottservant]

I think we need to realise, that if God gives us a choice: we are responsible for part of that choice - it is not completely ours to begin with, but we must work towards taking ownership of that choice.

Otherwise we are just robots.

When we surrender the fruit of the choice, back to Christ, He receives both the choice and the fruit that was based on the ownership of it.

That's the perspective of the law, but the Grace of that relationship is far more than that!

 

[FaithWillDo]

I think we need to realise, that if God gives us a choice: we are responsible for part of that choice - it is not completely ours to begin with, but we must work towards taking ownership of that choice.

Otherwise we are just robots.

When we surrender the fruit of the choice, back to Christ, He receives both the choice and the fruit that was based on the ownership of it.

That's the perspective of the law, but the Grace of that relationship is far more than that!

Dear Gottservant,
You said:
When we surrender the fruit of the choice, back to Christ, He receives both the choice and the fruit that was based on the ownership of it.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

Yes! Mankind is the work of Christ. He is the cause of our choices and therefore, deserves the "fruit" of His work which He does within us.

In the scripture below, the 24 elders (represents the Elect) cast their crowns before the throne of Christ in recognition of that truth:

Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that lives for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The Elect fully understand that they are the work of Christ:

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

The concept you stated is exactly what scripture teaches and is exactly what the carnal mind of mankind hates. The carnal mind has a preference for "works" over faith alone:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, the old is better.

From that preference, the Doctrine of Free Will was born in the apostate church. It is that doctrine which mixes "works" with "faith":

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Satan's "another gospel" is the crooked way of "works". Christ's Gospel is the straight way of faith. The two cannot be mixed together.

Joe

 

[Gottservant]

Dear Gottservant,
You said:
When we surrender the fruit of the choice, back to Christ, He receives both the choice and the fruit that was based on the ownership of it.
[...]

The concept you stated is exactly what scripture teaches and is exactly what the carnal mind of mankind hates. The carnal mind has a preference for "works" over faith alone:
[...]

Satan's "another gospel" is the crooked way of "works". Christ's Gospel is the straight way of faith. The two cannot be mixed together.

Joe

You almost swayed me there, I started to think "maybe I have a bias for works, that I shouldn't have?".

The difficulty is that I have a bias for works, that are inspired. I am not trying to reach Heaven, the inspiration of Heaven has been put in me!

I am trying to have the most inspiration, I can possibly have - which means being true, to the word Jesus spoke in me, when I was beginning to be saved. Having a problem with works, will not achieve that!

 

[FaithWillDo]

You almost swayed me there, I started to think "maybe I have a bias for works, that I shouldn't have?".

The difficulty is that I have a bias for works, that are inspired. I am not trying to reach Heaven, the inspiration of Heaven has been put in me!

I am trying to have the most inspiration, I can possibly have - which means being true, to the word Jesus spoke in me, when I was beginning to be saved. Having a problem with works, will not achieve that!

Dear Gottservant,
There is a difference between "works of the Law" and "works of faith". The works of faith which James mentions happen because a person is saved. They are the outward evidence of their salvation. However, these "works" are still the works of Christ and not our own.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us (salvation), for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

The works of the Law is what a person believes they must do in order to be saved. These believers take credit for the works (works like the confession of faith), when in fact, Christ is the one who causes the "works" to happen. They are His works and not our own. Mankind's supposed "free will" ability plays no part in producing the "works".

I read once about Billy Graham making an altar call at one of his events. He was urging people to respond to his gospel message and come forward and make a public confession of faith. He told the audience not to pray for those who are considering coming forward because their decision must be made from their own free will choice to do so.

Billy Graham turned the confession of faith into a "work of the Law". This is Satan's crooked way.

Here is what scripture teaches that Billy Graham did not understand:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Unless Christ has already come to an unbeliever and has given them the Early Rain, they have no ability to make the confession of faith when they hear the Gospel message. Christ must do his spiritual work of changing their heart and mind FIRST so that they will call Jesus "Lord":

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

If Christ does not come to an unbeliever and give them the Early Rain (which gives them a "measure of faith") beforehand, they will not respond to the "foolishness of preaching" when they hear it.

Paul's experience on the Damascus Road "typed" this truth.

If Christ had not intervened within Paul, Paul would have traveled onto Damascus to continue his persecution of the church. But Christ did intervene within Paul by giving Paul the Early Rain. As a result, Paul no longer could reject Christ but instead called Jesus "Lord". This is the only way a person can make a confession of faith.

As I have been saying though, the Early Rain will not destroy the new believer's carnality and because of such, they will remain spiritually blind. Paul's blindness "typed" this truth. After Paul received the Early Rain, Paul had to be lead by the hand (types the blind leading the blind) into Damascus where he remained blind and unable to eat or drink for three days:

Acts 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

This typed Paul's inability to consume the New Wine and the bread of Christ.

The number "three" is a spiritual symbol which represents a spiritual process. Paul went through a spiritual process in Damascus which caused him to become "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45). After his "three" days were finished, the pathway for Christ was made "straight" by Paul repenting of his works (typed by Paul's prayer). This was evidenced by Ananias (a type for Christ) traveling to a street named "Straight" in order to reach Paul.

When Ananias came to Paul, this happened:

Acts 9:11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, 12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

Acts 17:19 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain).

After Ananias went to Paul and laid hands on him, the scales fell off Paul's eyes and he was able to "see". This represents Paul being given the Latter Rain and having his spiritual blindness healed.

With Paul's new vision, Paul was told to eat "meat":

Acts 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose (new birth from receiving the Latter Rain), and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat (truth of God), he was strengthened.

Paul was now able (for the first time) to consume the truth of God so that he could begin walking by it (Psa 86:11). This is what empowered Paul to produce the works of faith which James mentioned.

Does what I have been saying about "works" make more sense to you now?

Joe

 

[Gottservant]

Dear Gottservant,
[...]

Paul was now able (for the first time) to consume the truth of God so that he could begin walking by it (Psa 86:11). This is what empowered Paul to produce the works of faith which James mentioned.

Does what I have been saying about "works" make more sense to you now?

Joe

I know what you are saying, but you are crushing my soul. I want to evidence works of the new birth, and you are saying "let Christ do it" - that's a tradition of man, not God.

The difference between my position and yours, is that I am tempted to believe that we could be inspired to do the "same" work, you believe we could be inspired to do "completely different" work. I think the answer is somewhere in the middle: we could be inspired to do 'similar' work.

But who would be doing the similar work? Christ? Christ in two places? Not in our midst, as He promised? But instead of us?

You see this does not make sense, but I am wondering what you will say!

 

[FaithWillDo]

I know what you are saying, but you are crushing my soul. I want to evidence works of the new birth, and you are saying "let Christ do it" - that's a tradition of man, not God.

The difference between my position and yours, is that I am tempted to believe that we could be inspired to do the "same" work, you believe we could be inspired to do "completely different" work. I think the answer is somewhere in the middle: we could be inspired to do 'similar' work.

But who would be doing the similar work? Christ? Christ in two places? Not in our midst, as He promised? But instead of us?

You see this does not make sense, but I am wondering what you will say!

Dear Gottservant,
You said:
I know what you are saying, but you are crushing my soul. I want to evidence works of the new birth, and you are saying "let Christ do it" - that's a tradition of man, not God.

You must let scripture teach you the truth and not the ministers of Satan who control the apostate church.

We must learn to trust Christ for all our needs and works. Christ will do them from within us (between our ears so to speak). Only in that way can we enter into the "rest" of Christ. When we do, we place all the work of our salvation and spiritual maturity into His hands. He will defeat the "giants in the Land". When Christ wants to teach us anything or when He wants us to perform a "work of faith", He will cause it to happen.

Christ is the Savior and He does 100% of the work of saving us. His work changes our heart and mind to match to His "will". His work is spiritual work which the flesh cannot detect:

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity (the world, our carnality) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

When Christ does His work within us, we make the decision to do whatever it is that He caused us to do. From our perspective, we believe that we made a "free will" decision but from what God's Word says, Christ is the one who caused it to happen. It takes "faith" to believe in something that our flesh cannot witness. It is that type of faith that opens the door for Christ to save us (convert us into a child of God via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Latter Rain).

These verses apply:

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Can you accept what the verses are teaching?

The deceptions of the spirit of anti-Christ are incredibly powerful. Scripture can clearly say one thing but the deceived believer will understand it differently and only as the spirit of anti-Christ within them directs. The only solution is for Christ to "come again" with the Latter Rain so that the believer's spiritual blindness can be healed. With their blindness healed, the spirit of anti-Christ will be taken and destroyed. Satan will then no longer be able to deceive the believer. Christ must do this work within us or no one will be free from the "strong delusion" of Satan. We have no free will ability to do it ourselves.

All that I can do to help a believer understand is by the "foolishness of preaching" where I point out the truth of scripture. It is up to Christ as to who will accept it. When a believer accepts it, it was the work of Christ within that person which caused it to happen.

Do you believe this?

The verses I quoted above teach this truth. If you need more faith, ask Christ for it. He is the only one who can give it to you.

You said:
The difference between my position and yours, is that I am tempted to believe that we could be inspired to do the "same" work, you believe we could be inspired to do "completely different" work. I think the answer is somewhere in the middle: we could be inspired to do 'similar' work.

But who would be doing the similar work? Christ? Christ in two places? Not in our midst, as He promised? But instead of us?

I really don't understand what you are trying to say above but I will make a response to what I believe you are asking.

One of the works which Christ gave to Paul was to start the Gentile churches. One the the works which Christ gave to me to do is to make the call of repentance to the Elect who are still in the apostate church. Paul's work and my work are "works of faith". They are different works but that is how the "body" functions. We all do our part. Christ is the "Head" (mind) and He is the one who causes the body to perform the work as He decides.

For that reason, Paul said that He was a servant of Christ:

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

1Cor 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.

Christ works from within His "servants" to cause them to do the work He requires of them. In this way, He works within us "to will and to do of his good pleasure". Christ does not direct us from without; He directs us from within (spiritually).

Does that answer your question?

Joe

 

[Gottservant]

Dear Gottservant,
You said:
I know what you are saying, but you are crushing my soul. I want to evidence works of the new birth, and you are saying "let Christ do it" - that's a tradition of man, not God.

You must let scripture teach you the truth and not the ministers of Satan who control the apostate church.

We must learn to trust Christ for all our needs and works.

[...]

Christ works from within His "servants" to cause them to do the work He requires of them. In this way, He works within us "to will and to do of his good pleasure". Christ does not direct us from without; He directs us from within (spiritually).

Does that answer your question?

Joe

You just said exactly what I said you were saying "the works I do and Paul's are completely different" - that is disingenuous. It is the one faith, and therefore the one inspiration whatever our works. This is getting into agreement with the Holy Spirit, about what Christ "perfects". You keep preparing inspiration in your heart, but you never acknowledge who is showing you how to do it - the Holy Spirit does not attempt to boast in how 'different' the works He inspires are, He simply inspires them.

This is something we are supposed to be able to "perfect", it requires commitment on our part - and the anti-Christ will insist "all works are the same works", we must watch and take heed.

 

[FaithWillDo]

You just said exactly what I said you were saying "the works I do and Paul's are completely different" - that is disingenuous. It is the one faith, and therefore the one inspiration whatever our works. This is getting into agreement with the Holy Spirit, about what Christ "perfects". You keep preparing inspiration in your heart, but you never acknowledge who is showing you how to do it - the Holy Spirit does not attempt to boast in how 'different' the works He inspires are, He simply inspires them.

This is something we are supposed to be able to "perfect", it requires commitment on our part - and the anti-Christ will insist "all works are the same works", we must watch and take heed.

Dear Gottservant,
I'm not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding me. Of course, all converted Elect believers are of the same Spirit. But not everyone does the same works within the body of Christ. However, the Spirit produces the same fruit within us and makes us all into "Christ".
And yes, we must have commitment but that commitment comes from the Spirit within us, just as our faith does. Everything we become is because of the work of Christ within us. He is the potter and we are the work of His hands. We have nothing we can boast about. Is that so hard to understand?

Joe

 

[Gottservant]

Dear Gottservant,
I'm not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding me.

Because you keep stepping on my toes! If you put my work down to Christ, you are not honouring me or Christ. If you put my work down to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, then you are honouring both me and the Holy Spirit. Why is that hard to understand?

Of course, all converted Elect believers are of the same Spirit.

There is your problem, you said "we are believers of the same" the truth is 'we are believers of the similar'.

But not everyone does the same works within the body of Christ. However, the Spirit produces the same fruit within us and makes us all into "Christ".

There again a mistake: the Spirit "makes us all into the body of Christ"; I forgive the mistake, but don't efface me.

And yes, we must have commitment but that commitment comes from the Spirit within us, just as our faith does. Everything we become is because of the work of Christ within us. He is the potter and we are the work of His hands. We have nothing we can boast about. Is that so hard to understand?

Joe

Christ completes the work, by taking the work we are inspired to do, as dutiful sevants. The important thing is being inspired. You can't stand before God in Heaven and say "Christ did it", you are supposed to have done something yourself! Then you can say "the Holy Spirit inspired me" and God will weigh how you stand.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Because you keep stepping on my toes! If you put my work down to Christ, you are not honouring me or Christ. If you put my work down to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, then you are honouring both me and the Holy Spirit. Why is that hard to understand?

There is your problem, you said "we are believers of the same" the truth is 'we are believers of the similar'.

There again a mistake: the Spirit "makes us all into the body of Christ"; I forgive the mistake, but don't efface me.

Christ completes the work, by taking the work we are inspired to do, as dutiful sevants. The important thing is being inspired. You can't stand before God in Heaven and say "Christ did it", you are supposed to have done something yourself! Then you can say "the Holy Spirit inspired me" and God will weigh how you stand.

Dear Gottservant,
You said:
Christ completes the work, by taking the work we are inspired to do, as dutiful sevants. The important thing is being inspired. You can't stand before God in Heaven and say "Christ did it", you are supposed to have done something yourself! Then you can say "the Holy Spirit inspired me" and God will weigh how you stand.

You are displaying a "works" based belief system which is the "crooked way". I have shown you many scriptures which support what I have said but you reject them because they don't give you enough credit for "your part".

All judgment has been given to Christ. God the Father will not weigh how you stand; Christ will:

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

When that Day comes, Christ will say to those who approach Him by "works":

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.

We must learn to fully trust Christ for everything that we believe and do. He is the cause of it. He is the potter. Mankind has ZERO works of which to boast about.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

For this reason, the Elect will cast their crowns before the throne in recognition of this truth:

Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The Elect give 100% of the honor and glory to Christ. They take credit for nothing.

Even Christ said the same thing about the works that He did and He gives full credit to His Father:

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

The Father was the source and cause of all the works which Christ did. The works which Christ did were the evidence that the Father was "in" Him. This is what James is teaching about our works of faith.

I don't believe I am going to be able to help you with this very important issue since you won't accept the scriptures I have presented. I think it is time to end our discussion.

Joe