If you have read the book of Revelation, and not understood something, you have read wisely (thoughts?)

[FaithWillDo]

No, you are claiming no one has a choice. There is no "doctrine of free will". That is an excuse of your theology that claims determinism overwrites free will.

Also, free will has nothing to do with making oneself look good.

You posted the definition. You need to keep free will as the ability to choose, free of any external manipulation whatsoever.

You keep leaving this definition and talking about made up things.

Are there some people who have a more defined purpose than others? More than likely, yes. But that does not remove free will from existence. God can remove a person and replace that person with another. There are billions of people out there.

Examples: King Saul and King David. Esau and Jacob. 1 Kings 13 where an old prophet lied and caused a man of God to disobey and be killed. Did these people have other choices besides the ones they made? How would we know? They had to live with the choices they made and the rest is history.

Humans are not computers nor robots. That is one good reason why humans have free will. Only God has the ability to even allow free will. Otherwise, yes, all creation is just a predetermined program, including humans. And NO! Sin is not the reason there is free will. Sin is the result of Adam's free will.

Dear Timtofly,
You said:
You posted the definition. You need to keep free will as the ability to choose, free of any external manipulation whatsoever.

The "works" of Christ are spiritual "works" and they happen "within" mankind. They are not external manipulations. When Christ does His spiritual work within a believer, they have no ability to know that He did it. From mankind perspective, they believe that they made a choice or decision from their supposed free will. However, scripture says this is not the case.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity (the world) in their HEART so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

It is mankind's carnality that keeps him from knowing and understanding God. It is by God's design.

This simple and straight forward verse below destroys any doubt that mankind as a free will ability to accept Christ as their Lord:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

No man can say that Jesus is the Lord unless they have already been given the Holy Spirit by Christ. If Christ does not give a person the Spirit, they will never make that decision to accept Christ. Mankind is just too carnally minded.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Because of this truth, scripture says this:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

By your belief in free will, you are denying the saving work of Christ in your life. And by denying His work within you, you are denying Christ. From Christ's perspective, you are stealing from Him and making yourself out to be equal with God who is the only one who has a free will ability.

This verse applies:

2Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there comes a falling away first, and that MAN OF SIN be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The Doctrine of Free Will is the foundational doctrinal belief of the Man of Sin.

You said:
Humans are not computers nor robots. That is one good reason why humans have free will. Only God has the ability to even allow free will. Otherwise, yes, all creation is just a predetermined program, including humans. And NO! Sin is not the reason there is free will. Sin is the result of Adam's free will.

You are using your carnal reasoning to try to understand God. You need to allow scripture to teach you the truth about God. And yes, all creation is "predetermined" by God. He leaves nothing up to chance or to mankind's "will":

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

God has a predetermined plan for mankind. He knows the end from the beginning because He knows that His "works" will accomplish everything that He as said He will do. He has spoken it and He will bring it to pass.

God is not a fortuneteller who looks into the future to see how things turn out just so that He can claim those end results as His own. This is utter nonsense and heresy. But amazingly, I have encountered many believers who use this false reasoning to explain from where God gets His foreknowledge. They quickly and easily throw the truth of God's Word out the window just so that they can hold onto their precious Doctrine of Free Will.

God's Word teaches that God's foreknowledge comes from His supreme ability to accomplish everything that He has predetermined to do:

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God does not look into the future to see how things end. God works all things to accomplish His "will" so that the end result is just has He foretold it would be.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

The First Firsts of Christ's harvest of mankind are "predestinated" by God from the foundation of the world. They are His workmanship and because they are, the First Fruits have nothing to boast about concerning their salvation. Certainly, the First Fruits do not believe in your false Doctrine of Free Will.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Paul struggles against the flesh just as ALL who are still burdened with mortal flesh do. There is a spiritual battle being waged between the fleshly spirit of man, and the Spirit of God within the believers. Why do you think Paul instructs us to daily ready ourselves for battle by putting on the full armour of God? Paul is not excluded from the spiritual warfare every believer endures in this life. This is "great tribulation" that Christ warns us will accompany the spread of the Gospel of Christ Jesus our Lord. Paul personally experienced the same spiritual warfare, so he warns every believer that we too must fight the good fight of faith, never doubting, always believing because the devil never gives up warring against our minds until we are rid of the mortal flesh.

Ephesians 6:10-18 (KJV) Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Paul reveals to us how this spiritual battle every believer must be engaged in this life is won! By serving God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength, not allowing my mortal fleshly desires to deceive me into becoming again a servant of sin. This is how Paul and every believer since Him lives by His Spirit and does not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. As long as believers are clothed in mortal, corruptible flesh, the desire that comes from our own mind and this world will always be with us. It's a spiritual battle, not a physical one.

Romans 7:24-25 (KJV) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Dear rwb,
Eph 6:10-18 is not teaching what you say it is teaching.

Paul specifically says that "we wrestle not against flesh and blood".

Paul is talking about the spiritual war which occurs within a believer after they receive the Early Rain of the Spirit. The "earnest amount" of the Spirit is not given in enough measure to quickly destroy the carnal nature of the believer. As a result, a spiritual war develops within the believer between the Old Man and the New Man. They are fighting to see who will govern the believer. If the Old Man wins, the believer will continue to walk by the Flesh (carnal nature). If the New Man wins, the believer will begin walking by the Spirit.

Soon after this spiritual war begins, Satan will send the spirit of anti-Christ to the believer to strengthen the Old Man. After the spirit of anti-Christ strengthens him, the New Man will be defeated. This is what it is meant when scripture says that Satan kills the saints. After Satan kills the New Man, the believer is made spiritually "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45) and the believer continues to walk by the flesh. He remains unconverted.

If the believer is one of Christ's Elect, Christ will later come a second time to that believer and pour out the Latter Rain upon them. The Latter Rain of the Spirit is the full payment of the Spirit and it is strong enough to immediately destroy the Old Man (who has become a Man of Sin). Because the revived New Man's victory is immediate, a spiritual war will not develop. The believer is now converted. This is Paul's spiritual condition when he wrote his letters to the churches. He was NOT fighting a spiritual war within himself as you contend. He was converted and the war was over. He was walking by the Spirit.

You said:
This is "great tribulation" that Christ warns us will accompany the spread of the Gospel of Christ Jesus our Lord.

The time of "great tribulation" is a spiritual event. It occurs within a called out believer after the New Man has been defeated by Satan and the Man of Sin starts governing the believer.

One final point just to be clear: After a called out believer is converted, there is NO spiritual war occurring within them. The war has been won.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

It appears you don't even know what/who the Church on earth is! Saying the Church has not received the Spirit proves you don't know what you're talking about! The babes in Christ in Corinth, Paul still referred to as brethren. Paul wasn't admonishing them because they did not have the Spirit. He admonished them because they did. But still they were acting like carnal men, because they were causing division in the church by arguing about which Apostle they should follow, when all the Apostles served the same Christ Jesus our Lord.

It appears to me that it is you that does not have ability to understand and receive the truth plainly found written in the Scriptures.

Dear rwb,
The Spirit is given first to us only in an earnest amount (Eph 1:13-14) This earnest amount is called the Holy Spirit of Promise/Early Rain of the Spirit. It is not the Baptism of the Spirit/Latter Rain of the Spirit which the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost.

The reason the "babes" in Christ in Corinth are still considered "brethren" is because they are NOT fallen away nor were they under the influence of the spirit of anti-Christ. The spirit of anti-Christ did not spoil the church until after Paul's departing:

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

You said:
It appears to me that it is you that does not have ability to understand and receive the truth plainly found written in the Scriptures.

I used to understand the truth of God much like you do. However, Christ came to me a second time on Oct 8th, 2005 and poured out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon me. At that time, Christ healed my spiritual blindness and turned by world upside down. Since that time, Christ has been very gracious to me and has opened my eyes to His truth as it is revealed in scripture. And as Christ freely gave to me, I freely give to others who seek to know the Lord (the unconverted Elect in the apostate church).

I no longer attend any churches and haven't since I was converted. The church is now apostate and is under the influence & deceptions of Satan. However, it is in the apostate church where the unconverted Elect are currently dwelling. For that reason, Christ has sent me to the apostate church to make Elijah's call of repentance to them. For those who response to that call, the pathway for Christ will be made "straight" and Christ will come a second time to them and pour out the Latter Rain upon them (just as He did for me).

James mentions this truth here:

Jam 5:17 Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one turns him back; 20 Let him know, that he which turns back the sinner from the error of his way shall save their soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Joe

 

[rwb]

Dear rwb,
The Spirit is given first to us only in an earnest amount (Eph 1:13-14) This earnest amount is called the Holy Spirit of Promise/Early Rain of the Spirit. It is not the Baptism of the Spirit/Latter Rain of the Spirit which the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost.

Earnest does not mean limited amount as you imagine. Paul is saying when we are sealed with the holy Spirit of promise, we have assurance, which is what earnest means, of the redemption of our body which Christ purchased by His blood.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

EARNEST - translated from the Greek word 'arrhabṓn' defined - a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest.

The Spirit is given to whosoever by grace through faith believes Christ for eternal life.

Titus 3:4-7 (KJV) But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 3:16-21 (KJV) That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Earnest does not mean limited amount as you imagine. Paul is saying when we are sealed with the holy Spirit of promise, we have assurance, which is what earnest means, of the redemption of our body which Christ purchased by His blood.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

EARNEST - translated from the Greek word 'arrhabṓn' defined - a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest.

Dear rwb,

You say "earnest" means " assurance but then you quote the definition which says it means a down payment???

I agree with the definition you supplied.

The Holy Spirit of Promise is the down payment of the Spirit which seals us UNTIL we are redeemed. A believer is redeemed when they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit and not before.

This scripture reveals when a believer is redeemed:

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your REDEMPTION draweth nigh.

This scripture above matches with what Peter said when He and the other Apostles was redeemed:

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and notable Day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter made this statement just after he received the Latter Rain of the Spirit. What Peter received was not the down payment of the Holy Spirit of Promise (the Early Rain).

Why was this the case?

The Nation of Israel is a "type" for the church. They were "called out from the world" when they left Egypt and passed through the Red Sea:

1Cor 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The Red Sea baptism is a "type" for the Early Rain of the Spirit which the church receives when they are called out from the world. It is not the day of redemption. It is the time of being "sealed".

When Christ came to the "called out" Nation of Israel in the flesh, they had "fallen away" just as the church is now fallen away. For that reason, Christ sent John the Baptist to them with the call of repentance. For the Jews (the Elect) who responded to the call, the pathway for Christ was made straight. Christ then came to the Jewish Elect on the Day of Pentecost and poured out the Latter Rain upon them. This was their day of redemption.

The pattern is the same for the church. A person will be "called out from the world" and will receive the Early Rain baptism. At that point, they will enter the church. Soon afterward, they will "fall away" just as the Nation of Israel did. Next, a converted Elect believer will come the fallen away church and make the call of repentance (just as John the Baptist came to the Nation of Israel). The fallen away Elect who hear this call will respond to it and will repent of their "works". They will then be ready for Christ to "come again" to them and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is their day of redemption - just as it was for the Jewish Elect.

The "sealing" of the Elect is also presented in Revelation in chapter 7. This chapter has two parts to it. The "sealing" and the "redemption".

The Sealing

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The sealing of the Elect occurs when they receive the Holy Spirit of Promise (the Early Rain). This is when they begin the pathway to Salvation.

The number "144,000" is a spiritual symbol which represents all the Elect. It is not a literal number. It is understood as 12x12x1000. Twelve is the number for the Kingdom of Heaven. Because the number 12 is repeated, the number two also applies. The number two represents the witness of God who are the Elect (12x12). The number 1000 is understood as 10x10x10. From that we have the numbers 10 and 3. Ten represents completeness and three represents a spiritual process. From the sum of the numbers, we know that the 144,000 who are sealed represents all the Elect who are made complete by a spiritual process.

This spiritual process then begins and leads up to their redemption.

The Redemption

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13 And one the elders answered, saying unto me, Who are these which are arrayed in white robes? 14 And whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they which came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore, they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; neither shall the sun light on them, nor heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Notice that the converted Elect come out of Great Tribulation. As I said before, their time of Great Tribulation occurs when they are a Man of Sin under Satan's influence. Once they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit (like the Apostles did), they immediately come out of their time of Great Tribulation and are redeemed. At this time, they are spiritually gathered together with Christ in Heaven. This is what Rev 7:9-17 represents.

This matches to what Christ said here:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What Christ is teaching above is not a one-time event. It is a reoccurring event and it is teaching on the individual salvation of the Elect. Their salvation occurs "immediately after the (Great) tribulation of those days". This is when Christ pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon the believer and heals their spiritual blindness. Because their blindness is healed, the sun and the moon are darkened. This represents that the believer will come out from Satan's deception and will no longer receive their truth from this natural world.

Peter, in his Acts 2:14-21 speech, also stated that the sun and moon were darkened. With this mention of the sun and the moon, we know that what both Peter and Christ were saying was referring to the same spiritual event. The spiritual event that Peter just experienced is easy to identify. It is the out pouring of the Spirit (Latter Rain) when he and the others were saved. It was their day of redemption.

Does any of what I presented above make any sense to you?

Joe

 

[rwb]

Dear rwb,

You say "earnest" means " assurance but then you quote the definition which says it means a down payment???

I agree with the definition you supplied.

The Holy Spirit of Promise is the down payment of the Spirit which seals us UNTIL we are redeemed. A believer is redeemed when they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit and not before.

The Holy Spirit is not the down payment of the Spirit which seals us. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit that seals us! Being indwelt with the Holy Spirit is the guarantee and full assurance from Christ that we will also be bodily resurrected and changed when the Lord returns.

Christ has already redeemed us through His atoning blood. Then giving assurance to those redeemed through Him, He sent His Spirit to be in us so that we would know that we have spiritually received everlasting life through Him. Death of the mortal body cannot keep those redeemed through the atoning blood of Christ anymore than death could keep Him. Through this assurance we have hope (assured promise) for deliverance too of our body returned to life again.

We have the Spirit, that is the firstfruits of life from death when we are born again of the Spirit. The eternal life we have through Him is spiritual, not physical. It is the spirit in man through the Holy Spirit sent from Christ that man goes from being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins to spiritually alive in Christ. Through the Spirit in us we patiently wait for the redemption of our body. That's what Paul means when he says "we are saved by hope". And hope that comes through His Spirit in us is assurance/confidence/knowing that what Christ has promised will not fail.

Romans 8:23-24 (KJV) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

There is only ONE Holy Spirit, He is THE Spirit sent by Christ after He ascended to heaven.

John 7:37-39 (KJV) In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The same Holy Ghost/Spirit is the Spirit that gave those at Pentecost the ability to speak in unknown languages. Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are the same thing, the Spirit sent from Christ to dwell in whosoever believes Him.

Acts 2:4 (KJV) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

When the believer speaks by the Spirit of God, saying Jesus is Lord, it is by the Holy Ghost/Spirit in them.

1 Corinthians 12:3 (KJV) Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

 

[FaithWillDo]

The Holy Spirit is not the down payment of the Spirit which seals us.

Dear rwb,

You are still confusing receiving the Latter Rain of the Spirit with receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit. They are TWO separate events on the Pathway to Salvation.

Only with the Latter Rain (which you quoted in Act 2:4) is a believer converted and saved. You quote the verses which teach on the Latter Rain but you ignore all the verses which teach on the Early Rain.

Do you not believe that the Spirit must be given twice by Christ for our salvation?

Here are more scriptures for you to consider on the Early and Latter Rains:

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withheld, and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

The Nation of Israel received the Early Rain when they were called out of Egypt but the Latter Rain did not come until the Day of Pentecost. And just like the church, the time in between the Early and Latter Rains is a time of drought. This time of drought is "typed" by Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought. It is during this time of drought that a believer will become a harlot. And just like the church, the Nation of Israel refused to be ashamed and would not repent of their "works". For this reason, John the Baptist had to come first.

Consider this verse:

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

This verse is talking about believers in the church. Those who are killed are those who repented and were converted. Those who did not repent of their works remained under Satan's influence. Because of such, they could not "see" (spiritually blind), or hear (spiritually deaf), nor walk (walk by the Spirit).

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the RAIN, as the Latter and former (Early) RAIN unto the earth.

Christ comes TWO times to a person to save them. He first comes as the Early Rain of the Spirit. And if a believer is chosen, He will "come again" as the Latter Rain of the Spirit. You must rightly divide the Word by these two Rains.

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and RAIN; that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great, which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

The "wheat harvest" is when the Elect are saved. This is taught in the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares. At the time of the harvest, Christ will send the Latter Rain so that the believer will "perceive and see that your wickedness is great". This truth is restated in this verse:

2Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there comes a falling away first, and that MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, the son of perdition;

Until Christ heals a believer's spiritual blindness, they cannot see who they have become under Satan's influence. But after Christ sends the Latter Rain, the believer will be able to "perceive and see" that their wickedness is great. In other words, the Man of Sin will be revealed and the believer will find that the Man of Sin is the one who has been looking back at them in the mirror all along.

Here is another verse which shows the TWO times the Lord will come to a person:

Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

When Christ comes the first time and gives the person the Early Rain, they will be broken. This is the same message presented in Isa 28:12

Isa 28:12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and FALL BACKWARD AND BE BROKEN, and snared, and taken.

When Christ comes the second time with the Latter Rain, the believer is "ground to powder". In other words, the believer's carnality is destroyed by Christ's judgment and they will be converted.

The teaching of the Woman Taken in Adultery is another good example of the two coming of Christ.

In the "type" presented by Christ, the woman represents mankind.

John 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

In the first three verses of the story, a woman is said to have been caught in the act of adultery. This event was "typed" by Adam and Eve when they were caught in the act of adultery with Satan in the Garden of Eden.

The woman was then delivered to the Pharisees who were responsible for the administration of the Law. The Law says that the penalty for her adultery is death. When Adam and Eve committed adultery in the Garden of Eden, they too, were judged by the Law and they were given the penalty of death (both spiritual and physical).

However, since Christ is now ready to restore His marriage relationship with the woman, He will gather her with “great mercies”:

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

The story continues...

John 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

Christ’s act of writing in the ground represents Him pouring out the Early Rain of the Spirit on the woman. By doing this, He is writing His Law of the Spirit in the woman's heart.

This verse applies:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The verse above is referring to the New Covenant of Grace through Faith which is Christ’s spiritual covenant. Under the New Covenant, Christ will perform all the necessary “works” to restore the woman to Himself. And since it is a spiritual covenant, He will write his Law of the Spirit in the heart of the woman.

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

After Christ first writes in the earth, the Pharisees continue to accuse the woman. They do this because the woman still remains under the Law after having received the Early Rain of the Spirit. She remains under the Law because the Early Rain is not sufficient to stop her from committing adultery with Satan. In other words, she does not have the ability to approach Christ strictly by faith alone yet. She is still compelled by her carnal nature and the deceptions of Satan to mix in her own “works” with faith. She is still trying to serve two masters, both Satan and Christ (Mat 6:24).

By continuing in her adultery, she falls away from faith and remains under the Law. For this reason, the Pharisees do not drop their stones but continue to accuse her.

John 8: 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

In verse 8, Christ stoops down a second time and writes His Law of the Spirit in the heart of the woman again. This act represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

It is at this point that Christ heals the woman’s spiritual blindness and she comes out from Satan’s deceptions. At this time, she begins to walk by faith alone and as a result, the Law can no longer accuse her. After this change from the Old Covenant of Law to the New Covenant of Grace through Faith, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave.

The woman has now been made into a Chaste Virgin again and is ready for the wedding to take place. After the wedding takes place, the woman’s marriage relationship with Christ is restored.

There is another teaching from the Old Testament that I want to share with you, too. I will present it in the next post.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

The Holy Spirit is not the down payment of the Spirit which seals us.

Dear rwb,

Ecc 11:1 Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days. 2 Give a portion to SEVEN, and also to EIGHT; for thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth. 3 if the clouds be full of rain, they empty themselves upon the earth: and if the tree fall toward the south, or toward the north, in the place where the tree falleth, there it shall be. 4 He that observeth the wind shall not sow; and he that regardeth the clouds shall not reap. 5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

In verses 1 & 2 above, two portions of bread are shown to be cast upon the waters. Water is representative of the Holy Spirit. Bread is Truth (Christ).

The first portion of bread goes to SEVEN which is a reference to mankind in our marred spiritual state we all have from birth. Casting the first portion of bread to SEVEN represents the time when an unbeliever receives the Early Rain of the Spirit. It is at this point when a person enters the church.

Next, a second portion of bread goes to EIGHT because “THOU KNOWEST NOT what evil shall be upon the earth”. The spiritual term EIGHT is a reference to the worsened carnal state that occurs to a called out believer shortly after they receive the Early Rain. This spiritual change is hidden from the called out believer’s knowledge because they remain spiritually blind. Satan makes their last state of carnality "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45).

If the called out believer has been chosen, Christ will give them a second portion of bread while they are in this worsened carnal state (EIGHT). This second portion of bread is given to them at the time of the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This gift will bring about the destruction of a Man of Sin and the birth of a child of God. This is conversion and it is when the old vessel is destroyed and the new vessel is created (Jer 18:4).

In verse 3, it continues talking about EIGHT and mentions the clouds being full of rain. This is a reference to the drought that occurs during the time a believer spends between the Early and Latter Rains. It is symbolized by Elijah’s 3 ½ years of drought which is also referred to as a time, times and half a time, 1260 days and 42 months. When the clouds “empty themselves upon the earth”, it is a direct reference to the Latter Rain event that ends the time of drought for a chosen believer.

Verse 3 continues by mentioning a tree which falls either to the North or to the South. A tree is representative of a called out believer who has received the Early Rain of the Spirit. When a tree falls, that event represents the time when a called out believer falls away and becomes spiritually worse than the first. It is the time of Daniel’s Abomination of Desolation when a believer loses their salvation. If the tree falls to the south, it represents believers who have been chosen to receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit. If the tree falls to the north, it represents believers who have not been chosen to receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit. The decision of who is chosen and who is not chosen was made from the foundation of the world and cannot be changed (where the tree falls, there it shall be).

Verse 4 continues talking about the chosen believers vs. the non-chosen believers.

The believers who “observeth the wind shall not sow” is a reference to the chosen believers who, after receiving the Latter Rain, are “born of the Spirit” (wind, John 3:8)). They will no longer sow because they have stopped approaching Christ by their own works. They have entered into the rest of Christ.

The believers who “regardeth the clouds shall not reap” is a reference to the non-chosen believers who remain spiritually blind. The clouds represent their spiritual blindness which keeps Christ hidden from their understanding. Because they remain blind, they will not reap and produce the spiritual fruit that is required of a child of God. They will remain lost in this present age.

Verse 5 speaks to the concealed nature of the Pathway to Salvation which was presented in verses 1-4. The first part of verse 5 tells us that we do not know “the way of the Spirit” or how the “bones” (Spirit) grow in the womb. Mankind, in our carnally minded spiritual state, cannot understand the ways of God – our carnality blinds us from the truth of God.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity (the world) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

Paul said that Christ and His Church are a Great Mystery (Eph 5:32). This truth is the most hidden teaching in scripture. At its core is the teaching of the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit.

Verse 5 continues by mentioning the analogy of the woman who is with child. In this analogy, the woman represents the “freewoman” (Gal 4:22-31) and the child in the womb is the child of God waiting to be born. This truth is likewise hidden from mankind.

Verse 5 finishes with another statement that says again that the “works of God who maketh all” is a mystery to mankind.

To summarize: Christ’s plan of producing children of God requires TWO portions of bread (truth) to be given to mankind. The first portion is given to a person at the time of the Early Rain when they are in their unbelieving carnal state they have from birth. This is symbolized by the spiritual term SEVEN. The second portion of bread is given to them at the time of the Latter Rain after Satan has intervened and made their original carnal state "worse than the first". This is symbolized by the spiritual term EIGHT. If a called out believer has been chosen to receive the second portion of bread before they physically die, they will be a First Fruit of Christ’s harvest of mankind. They will receive salvation (conversion) in this present age. If a called out believer has not been chosen to receive a second portion of bread before they physically die, they will remain in their worsened carnal state and will die in their sins. Their salvation will come at the end of the final age with the unbelievers.

Joe

 

[rwb]

You are still confusing receiving the Latter Rain of the Spirit with receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit. They are TWO separate events on the Pathway to Salvation.

Only with the Latter Rain (which you quoted in Act 2:4) is a believer converted and saved. You quote the verses which teach on the Latter Rain but you ignore all the verses which teach on the Early Rain.

Do you not believe that the Spirit must be given twice by Christ for our salvation?

It is not who is confused, it is you! There is only one filling of the Spirit and according to Christ the Spirit comes into man when he/she believes in Christ. Possessing the Spirit is what it means to be born again, or born of the Spirit, born from above.

When one hears the Gospel of salvation, the Word of truth and believes they are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, until the day of redemption of our body when Christ comes again. First we have been spiritually redeemed through the blood of Christ, having received of His grace the Holy Spirit believers have His promise that we shall also be bodily redeemed when the last trumpet sounds and we are physically resurrected and changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible.

Ephesians 1:12-13 (KJV) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30 (KJV) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:16-17 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[rwb]

Ecc 11:1 Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days. 2 Give a portion to SEVEN, and also to EIGHT; for thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth. 3 if the clouds be full of rain, they empty themselves upon the earth: and if the tree fall toward the south, or toward the north, in the place where the tree falleth, there it shall be. 4 He that observeth the wind shall not sow; and he that regardeth the clouds shall not reap. 5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

In verses 1 & 2 above, two portions of bread are shown to be cast upon the waters. Water is representative of the Holy Spirit. Bread is Truth (Christ).

The first portion of bread goes to SEVEN which is a reference to mankind in our marred spiritual state we all have from birth. Casting the first portion of bread to SEVEN represents the time when an unbeliever receives the Early Rain of the Spirit. It is at this point when a person enters the church.

You come across as a Gnostic, believing you have received a private spiritual revelation that is given only to those of greater hidden gnosis/knowledge from God! How do you prove what you allege through Scripture? Without showing how you have arrived at what you allege to be Biblical truth, why would any student of the Bible believe you?

 

[FaithWillDo]

It is not who is confused, it is you! There is only one filling of the Spirit and according to Christ the Spirit comes into man when he/she believes in Christ. Possessing the Spirit is what it means to be born again, or born of the Spirit, born from above.

When one hears the Gospel of salvation, the Word of truth and believes they are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, until the day of redemption of our body when Christ comes again. First we have been spiritually redeemed through the blood of Christ, having received of His grace the Holy Spirit believers have His promise that we shall also be bodily redeemed when the last trumpet sounds and we are physically resurrected and changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible.

Ephesians 1:12-13 (KJV) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30 (KJV) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:16-17 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Dear rwb,

You said:
When one hears the Gospel of salvation, the Word of truth and believes they are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, until the day of redemption of our body when Christ comes again.

You are adding "of our body" to the verse. It is not in the verse.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The day of redemption is when a person is saved and converted. The purchased possession is mankind. The verse is not talking about the body.

Here are more verses which all state that our redemption is talking about our spiritual salvation:

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

The Holy Spirit of Promise seals the Elect until the Day of Redemption comes. It comes when Christ "comes again" with the Latter Rain.

The body is redeemed after we are spiritually redeemed and that happens at the end of this age when the resurrection from the grave occurs.

Your understanding of truth is based on the teachings of man and not that of scripture. Until that changes, I cannot help you.

Joe

 

[rwb]

You are adding "of our body" to the verse. It is not in the verse.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Of course I am because that's why believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit at the moment they believe. Believers are sealed so they will not doubt but be confidently assured of "redemption of the purchased possession". Perhaps you simply lack understanding what the purchased possession of believers means? When man is born again of the Spirit, he HAS been eternally saved spiritually (gone from spiritual death to spiritual life)! But our mortal body being destined to die shall not possess immortal life until the last trump sounds. Believers have been redeemed from the curse of sin, and we shall be bodily redeemed from the curse of death when we are bodily resurrected to immortality and incorruptibility.

 

[FaithWillDo]

You come across as a Gnostic, believing you have received a private spiritual revelation that is given only to those of greater hidden gnosis/knowledge from God! How do you prove what you allege through Scripture? Without showing how you have arrived at what you allege to be Biblical truth, why would any student of the Bible believe you?

Dear rwb,
There are other believers who understand scripture as I do. However, you will not find them in any churches or groups. They are "few" in number. Their fellowship is with Christ and His Father, and when possible, with each other, however, those times are rare.

Scripture proves what I am teaching when one is able to understand scripture. But if Christ has not healed a person's spiritual blindness, they will not be able to understand and receive what Christ teaches. For me, what I have been presenting to you seems so very clear and easy to understand. However, I have to remind myself that a blind man simply cannot see - no matter how much light is shined upon them. It just isn't possible. Until Christ comes a second time to a believer, the words of Christ will remain a mystery to them.

It was my sincere hope that Christ was in the process of preparing you to receive His truth but that does not appear the case. However, it will happen someday because the Word of God declares it:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Christ truly is mankind's Savior. Someday, when you "look back", you will see that I have been right all along.

I just read your last post that you sent but there isn't anything that I can say to you that I haven't already said.

I believe now is a good time to end our discussion.

Joe

 

[rwb]

Dear rwb,
There are other believers who understand scripture as I do. However, you will not find them in any churches or groups. They are "few" in number. Their fellowship is with Christ and His Father, and when possible, with each other, however, those times are rare.

Scripture proves what I am teaching when one is able to understand scripture. But if Christ has not healed a person's spiritual blindness, they will not be able to understand and receive what Christ teaches. For me, what I have been presenting to you seems so very clear and easy to understand. However, I have to remind myself that a blind man simply cannot see - no matter how much light is shined upon them. It just isn't possible. Until Christ comes a second time to a believer, the words of Christ will remain a mystery to them.

It was my sincere hope that Christ was in the process of preparing you to receive His truth but that does not appear the case. However, it will happen someday because the Word of God declares it:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Christ truly is mankind's Savior. Someday, when you "look back", you will see that I have been right all along.

I just read your last post that you sent but there isn't anything that I can say to you that I haven't already said.

I believe now is a good time to end our discussion.

Joe

If Scripture proves what you are saying, where are the passages and verses to support what you allege is Biblical?

Are you now promoting the doctrine of universalism? Do you quote this verse to show what you believe is proof that Christ will save all of humanity?

By His cross and resurrection Christ gave His life as a ransom for ALL sin! And He is the Savior of ALL who believe in Him! Let's look at 1Tim 2:3 in context, because it does not prove what you imagine. In Christ ALL sin is abolished, either according to grace through faith unto salvation, or abolished in the lake of fire.

We are to pray for ALL men, kings, and those in authority that they may lead a quiet and peaceful life in all goodness and honesty. Why are we instructed to pray especially for those who are in darkness and unbelief? Because Christ is the Saviour of ALL who will be saved, and come to the knowledge of truth. Salvation through Christ is not limited to any one nation, tribe, people, or tongue. Salvation through Christ is unto ALL who believe. It's all without distinction, but not all without exception, because ALL WHO BELIEVE will be saved.

1 Timothy 2:1-6 (KJV) I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

[FaithWillDo]

If Scripture proves what you are saying, where are the passages and verses to support what you allege is Biblical?

Are you now promoting the doctrine of universalism? Do you quote this verse to show what you believe is proof that Christ will save all of humanity?

By His cross and resurrection Christ gave His life as a ransom for ALL sin! And He is the Savior of ALL who believe in Him! Let's look at 1Tim 2:3 in context, because it does not prove what you imagine. In Christ ALL sin is abolished, either according to grace through faith unto salvation, or abolished in the lake of fire.

We are to pray for ALL men, kings, and those in authority that they may lead a quiet and peaceful life in all goodness and honesty. Why are we instructed to pray especially for those who are in darkness and unbelief? Because Christ is the Saviour of ALL who will be saved, and come to the knowledge of truth. Salvation through Christ is not limited to any one nation, tribe, people, or tongue. Salvation through Christ is unto ALL who believe. It's all without distinction, but not all without exception, because ALL WHO BELIEVE will be saved.

1 Timothy 2:1-6 (KJV) I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Dear rwb,
Like the other scriptures you don't agree with, you add or subject words from them to make them fit your worldly paradigm. Your understanding of the truth really does not come from scripture. You like to pretend it does but it really doesn't. Until Christ comes to you a second time and heals your spiritual blindness, there is nothing I can do to help you.

Joe

 

[Timtofly]

No man can say that Jesus is the Lord unless they have already been given the Holy Spirit by Christ. If Christ does not give a person the Spirit, they will never make that decision to accept Christ. Mankind is just too carnally minded.

This is where your human interpretation fails the point made by Scripture.

The Holy Spirit is at work in every single human from conception. John the Baptist is the prime example.

Giving us the Holy Spirit, while we are dead flesh is not a manipulation by God. It is the only means of working in the thought process, we would call spiritual as opposed to a physical experience. One that is tangible from the physical world around us, or even hearing the Word of God presented by another human in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

You place this alleged coercion by God in opposition to the reality that God is working both spiritually and physically in our lives.

The placement of the Holy Spirit is to give us a choice, not to remove that choice and force us to become born of the Spirit.

Most people learn to tune out the Holy Spirit at a young age.

So God does not force the Holy Spirit into certain people, and then instantly they are "born again".

That is the wrong approach. God does enable one once they have accepted the Atonement of the Cross, with the power of the Holy Spirit working within. But that is a choice of submitting one's will. Being controlled by God after crucifying the flesh is not coercion. That is still a free will decision at all times.

You seem to indicate the Holy Spirit is not at work until after given at varous stages in life. That is not true. The Holy Spirit has been calling you on God's behalf from the time you were conceived.

The Holy Spirit has always been at work, and even more so once one submits to the Holy Spirit. The fact that the Holy Spirit was physically presented to the church at a single point in time does not negate that the Holy Spirit was already given at conception and already a witness on God's behalf.

Those disciples were already submitted to God, and ready and willing to be controlled by God. That has always been an available and ongoing phenomenon though not exactly as physical as was on the day of Pentecost.

 

[Timtofly]

By your belief in free will, you are denying the saving work of Christ in your life. And by denying His work within you, you are denying Christ. From Christ's perspective, you are stealing from Him and making yourself out to be equal with God who is the only one who has a free will ability.

Once again not going by the agreed upon definition. Free Will is never defined by the ability of the human.

Free will is not an attribute of God. God is the party that cannot coerce. How can God "not coerce" or "coerce" Himself?

Free will is defined by the lack of coercion from God or fate. Although fate does not exist. That point is placed by those who reject there is a God.

Free will is only God letting us make our own decisions that result in the destination when this creation no longer exist.

That has been expanded to make it palatable for nonbelievers.

Free will is not man's ability to do as he pleases without consequences.

That leaves out the part where one is coerced.

Laws are not a means of coercion. Laws control how creation itself can function with certain limits, thus a law.

God making impossible Laws to obey, or making the impossible happen contrary to law is not part of the coercion of Free Will.

That is about God dealing with a chosen people who may or may not be keen on the notion of being controlled. And the ability to keep one's own head under such conditions is still fee will, because you still have to live with the decisions you make, not those out of your control that the decision is based upon.

Free will is the ability to choose, without that ability taken away. Of course if you have no more ability to choose, neither do you have Free Will. In fact, many humans have birth defects that can severely limit one's Free Will. But no one can say they happened because of coercion. Even if God allowed it. Not every one can exercise Free Will. That does not mean it is not an ability of all humans.

As pointed out. I do not rule out that God can work in certain humans in a coerced manner. That does not negate Free Will. They are exceptions to the point of Free Will.

A reprobate soul no longer has free will. I don't see that as reversible. God did remove their ability to choose. That is not coercion. That is the punishment of constant disobedience. Sure they can make choices, but the point about their eternal destination has been sealed. While free will is not just about Salvation, many claim soteriology as the reason free will does not exist, when in fact Salvation is really the only reason free will does exist. Free will is part of humans being restored back into sons of God. For the very reason that God does not coerce us into Salvation. Nor does everything else but God coerce us into damnation. I suppose we can coerce ourselves, but that is free will, because it is our choice.

 

[Timtofly]

You are using your carnal reasoning to try to understand God. You need to allow scripture to teach you the truth about God. And yes, all creation is "predetermined" by God. He leaves nothing up to chance or to mankind's "will":

Once again, free will is not about humans shaping and redefining creation.

Creation does not have free will. Humans do.

 

[Timtofly]

The First Firsts of Christ's harvest of mankind are "predestinated" by God from the foundation of the world. They are His workmanship and because they are, the First Fruits have nothing to boast about concerning their salvation. Certainly, the First Fruits do not believe in your false Doctrine of Free Will.

Every single soul ever to exist from Adam and Eve was predestined and place in the Lamb's book of life.

Those who choose God because of free will, will remain in the Lamb's book of life.

Those who reject God because of free will will be removed.

To stay or remain is still an individual's choice. If one cannot choose, then free will does not matter, does it?

If one cannot choose salvation, what is the default position from God's perspective? Were they not still predestined? Who decides for them if not God?

Explain to me how one cannot choose, one does not have free will, and they cannot be coerced by God to even make a choice, even mean?

You are literally saying that God damns the majority to the LOF from the very beginning. They never had a chance to begin with, then explain to people that God is a loving God, but only for a select few who did not have a choice either.

Explain to me why so many verses in Scripture are about making a decision, when you claim no one can decide.

 

[FaithWillDo]

This is where your human interpretation fails the point made by Scripture.

Dear Timtofly,
You said:
The Holy Spirit is at work in every single human from conception. John the Baptist is the prime example.

Yes, God works in all mankind but this verse is not teaching about that truth. It is talking about the Early and/or Latter Rain of the Spirit. Without the Spirit, no one can understand or seek out Christ or call Him "Lord".

You are ignoring this verse which teaches the true spiritual condition mankind has from birth:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Also, John the Baptist was "called out from the world", as was the entire Nation of Israel. The nation received the Early Rain of the Spirit in "type". When Christ calls a person out from the world, they are given a measure of faith. When the Jewish Elect were converted on the Day of Pentecost, all they needed to receive was the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

The pattern the Jewish Elect followed is the same pattern the Gentile Elect must follow. They must first receive the Early Rain and be "called out". They will then "fall away" and remain spiritually lost until a converted believer comes to them in the spirit of Elijah. Christ will then cause them to respond to that call of repentance from works (belief in Free Will). Their repentance will make the pathway straight for Christ to "come again" to them. When Christ comes, He will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon them, just as He did for the Jewish Elect.

Any person who has not received the Early and/or Latter Rain will never call Jesus "Lord". Christ must come to them first (without their asking or permission) and give them the free gift of the Spirit. He gives it to them because of His grace and because He chose to give it to them at that time. The person played no part in it.

You said:
You place this alleged coercion by God in opposition to the reality that God is working both spiritually and physically in our lives.

I have never said that Christ coerces anyone to make a confession of faith. You must not be reading my posts. Christ will come to an unbeliever and give them the Spirit because it is a FREE GIFT. Christ will give them the free gift at a time of His own choosing. With an earnest of the Spirit, the person willingly makes a confession of faith when they are presented with the Gospel. Christ never coerces anyone - He changes their heart and mind to agree with Him.

You said:
The placement of the Holy Spirit is to give us a choice, not to remove that choice and force us to become born of the Spirit.

This is not true. It is a teaching of man who has a "works" based belief system.

Where is your faith to believe Christ when He says:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Once a person has the Spirit within them, they will no longer call Jesus accursed. They can make no other choice but to accept Jesus as "Lord". They willingly make this confession because the Spirit within them changed their heart and mind.

You said:
Most people learn to tune out the Holy Spirit at a young age.

This is another teaching of man. Mankind was made carnal and because of such, no man has the ability to "tune in" to the Holy Spirit.

Also, no one can go against God's "will". God is ALWAYS in full control of mankind. When Christ wants to cause a person to "believe" or "act" in a certain way, He will cause it to happen without their knowledge or permission. Your understanding of God is not based on the teachings of scripture.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Christ does has He pleases with mankind. Mankind is the work of His hands. We contributed nothing to who we are when we are born and we contribute nothing to who we later become (a child of God).

You said:
So God does not force the Holy Spirit into certain people, and then instantly they are "born again".

Again, this is a teaching of man. Paul's conversion was given in scripture to show in "type" the Pathway to Salvation. Paul's conversion is the pattern all others must follow:

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause, I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Christ's "longsuffering" occurs while one of His Elect are in an unconverted spiritual state. He suffers with His Elect while they are in this state until the time comes for their conversion. He converts them when He comes to them a second time and pours out the Latter Rain. After the Spirit is given, judgment will immediately follow. When their judgment is complete, they will be converted (Mat 3:11-12).

Christ came to Paul on the Damascus Road and gave Paul the Early Rain. Paul then immediately called Jesus "Lord". Paul's heart and mind were instantly changed so as to cause Paul to call Jesus "Lord". Paul did not ask for the Spirit nor did Paul give Christ permission to give him the Spirit. In fact, Paul hated Christ and was on his way to Damascus to persecute Christians. Paul had no intention of changing.

As it was with Paul, so it is with all people who are "called out from the world". Mankind hates Christ (just as Paul hated Christ) because all mankind is carnally minded.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

You said:
You seem to indicate the Holy Spirit is not at work until after given at varous stages in life. That is not true. The Holy Spirit has been calling you on God's behalf from the time you were conceived.

This is another teaching of man and is not supported by scripture.

You said:
Those disciples were already submitted to God, and ready and willing to be controlled by God. That has always been an available and ongoing phenomenon though not exactly as physical as was on the day of Pentecost.

The disciples were already called out from the world and had been given a measure of faith. Christ then caused them to respond to the call of John the Baptist. They were chosen for this blessing and because they were, Christ did all the necessary spiritual work within them to led them to their conversion on the Day of Pentecost.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom HE did predestinate, them HE also called: and whom he called, them HE also justified: and whom he justified, them HE also glorified.

Where is man's supposed free will choices in the verse above? The salvation the Elect receive comes solely from the work of Christ within them.

Rom 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to ELECTION might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Every person who is saved in this age is saved according to the Election of God. They were chosen and predestinated for this blessing from the foundation of the world. Their "will" and "works" had nothing to do with their salvation, "lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8).

As I have been saying, your beliefs are not coming from God's Word. They are coming from the teachings of this world.

Joe