If you have read the book of Revelation, and not understood something, you have read wisely (thoughts?)

[rwb]

That's right if you are speaking about a believer's moment of salvation. Christ's Kingdom comes to us spiritually when He pours out the Latter Rain (Baptism of the Spirit). At that time, we receive a New Heaven and a New Earth. The New Heaven is the mind of Christ and the Old Heaven is mankind's carnal mind. The New Earth is the new spiritual nature which the Holy Spirit gives us and the Old Earth is mankind's carnal nature. For that reason, Peter says in 2Pet 3:10-13 that the Old Earth and Old Heavens will be destroyed. It happens by the judgment of Christ which immediately follows an Elect believer's moment of salvation. This is conversion.

We don't receive the new heaven and new earth before the first heaven and earth have passed away.

Revelation 21:1-5 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

[FaithWillDo]

We don't receive the new heaven and new earth before the first heaven and earth have passed away.

Revelation 21:1-5 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Dear rwb,
A believer must receive the New Heaven and New Earth FIRST. If old heaven and earth are destroyed first, the believer would not have a spiritual nature or mind and will be perished.

In Rev 21:1-5, John recorded that all he could see was a New Heaven and New Earth. He makes no mention of the "order" of the conversion.

However, Revelation chapter 19 does give us the order as it is presented in the marriage analogy. The Marriage and Marriage Supper occur first, then comes the judgment when the new child of God and Christ ride their horses into battle to destroy the carnality of the believer.

Also, consider this verse:

Joel 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

This verse above is speaking about judgment which is a final part of conversion. This is the same conversion experience Peter described on the Day of Pentecost.

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and notable Day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The Spirit is poured out first which produces the New Heavens and the New Earth. Then judgment will follow which destroys the Old Heavens and the Old Earth.

Also, the sun and moon are darkened as a result of the new birth. After a believer receives their new "eyes that can see", they will no longer receive the truth which comes from the natural world. This is symbolized by the sun and the moon being darkened. The new birth must come first because that is what brings judgment. After a believer is given "eyes that can see", the Man of Sin (who they are) is revealed to themselves and the brightness of Christ's appearing will destroy him.

This verse also applies:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

The "sword" represents the Word of God. Its truth (brightness) is what slays the Man of Sin. For a believer to have this truth within them, they must be "born again". If they are not born again, judgment cannot not come.

Joe

 

[Timtofly]

Mankind has divine restraints on their "will" as these verses repeatedly and clearly state:

The point is that there are choices.

Of course there are limits. That is not the point of free will.

If humans had no choices at all, then, and only then would there be no free will.

Free will does not mean unlimited ability. Free will is only the ability to choose.

 

[rwb]

Dear rwb,
A believer must receive the New Heaven and New Earth FIRST. If old heaven and earth are destroyed first, the believer would not have a spiritual nature or mind and will be perished.

In Rev 21:1-5, John recorded that all he could see was a New Heaven and New Earth. He makes no mention of the "order" of the conversion.

However, Revelation chapter 19 does give us the order as it is presented in the marriage analogy. The Marriage and Marriage Supper occur first, then comes the judgment when the new child of God and Christ ride their horses into battle to destroy the carnality of the believer.

Also, consider this verse:

Joel 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

This verse above is speaking about judgment which is a final part of conversion. This is the same conversion experience Peter described on the Day of Pentecost.

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and notable Day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The Spirit is poured out first which produces the New Heavens and the New Earth. Then judgment will follow which destroys the Old Heavens and the Old Earth.

Also, the sun and moon are darkened as a result of the new birth. After a believer receives their new "eyes that can see", they will no longer receive the truth which comes from the natural world. This is symbolized by the sun and the moon being darkened. The new birth must come first because that is what brings judgment. After a believer is given "eyes that can see", the Man of Sin (who they are) is revealed to themselves and the brightness of Christ's appearing will destroy him.

This verse also applies:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

The "sword" represents the Word of God. Its truth (brightness) is what slays the Man of Sin. For a believer to have this truth within them, they must be "born again". If they are not born again, judgment cannot not come.

Joe

So for you nothing of Scripture is physical, but rather all is mystical and spiritual? Prove through the Bible what you allege or I am left to believe you are nothing but another in a long line of Gnostics, thinking your higher mystical, spiritual, and intellectual powers for understanding lies only within you? This of which God has said even a small child would know? Where in Scripture can I find confirmation that believers receive a new heaven and new earth the moment of conversion? And where might I read the Word telling me the faithful must first have a final judgment experience as a final part of our conversion? And where does Scripture tell us that after conversion a believer with eyes that can see, no longer receives truth which comes from the natural world? Did not Paul write extensively of his daily dying to himself in his struggles against his flesh? If man has been born again does not Scripture affirm, we have already passed from death and darkness to light and life through the judgment of Christ on the cross and His glorious resurrection? And how is one a believer according to Scripture if they have not already been born again? Your doctrine leaves me scratching my head and makes me believe that you and ScottA have been taught this rubbish by the same esoteric, mystical false Gnostics and has no biblical truth..

 

[FaithWillDo]

The point is that there are choices.

Of course there are limits. That is not the point of free will.

If humans had no choices at all, then, and only then would there be no free will.

Free will does not mean unlimited ability. Free will is only the ability to choose.

Dear Timtofly,
Mankind's ability to make choices is not in question in scripture. What is in question is whether or not those choices are made freely by the individual or by God's direction.

Consider computers; they make choices frequently but no one would say that a computer has free will. The ability to make choices has no bearing on whether or not mankind has a free will.

To understand if mankind as a free will or not, we must look to the verses which teach about the "cause" of the choices mankind makes. When we do that, we find that mankind's choices come by God's direction. There simply are no verses which say differently.

If a person has faith in Christ as most believer's say that do, but yet won't believe what Christ says, then where is their faith?

Faith is not just believing that Christ exists and that He is mankind's God. Faith in Christ is much more than that. We MUST also believe that what Christ teaches us in scripture is true. We MUST also trust Him to accomplish all that He says He will accomplish.

Most believers are very lacking in faith when it comes to believing and trusting what Christ says in scripture. For them, they only believe what fits into their preexisting paradigm box. When scripture challenges those beliefs, they find a way to twist and turn scripture to make it conform. They really don't have a "love for the truth".

This is why the false Doctrine of Free Will came into existence. It's not because it is taught in scripture; it's because the carnal mind of man has a preference to prove to God that they are somehow worthy of salvation and worthy of having a relationship with Him.

Christ said this:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, the old is better.

The Old Wine represents the blood sacrifices of the Old Covenant of Law. This covenant is founded upon the "works" of man to make themselves acceptable to God. This preference for "works" is built-in to mankind's carnal nature. From that preference, the many religions of the world were created.

When an unbeliever is called out from the world, their carnal nature will continue to control their thoughts and beliefs of their already carnal mind. The "earnest" of the Early Rain is not given in enough measure to change it. Because the carnal mind remains in control of the new believer, it will "veil" Christ from their understanding. As a result, they will reject the New Wine of Grace through Faith where Christ's does 100% of the "works" of their salvation. For this reason, the Doctrine of Free Will was born.

Under the Doctrine of Free Will, mankind must do something to earn their salvation - even if it is only taking credit for their confession of faith. However, many believers don't stop there. They will follow the law of tithing, Sabbath Day observance, eating only "clean" foods, or other "works" which they feel compelled to perform so that Christ will find them more worthy of salvation.

Paul says that when a believer has this mindset, they become a debtor to keeping the whole Law and that they are "fallen from grace". And being under the Law, they are not saved.

Turning to "works" (even just one) is the sin that leads to death. Satan's deceptions and lies all focus on having a believer turn to "works" in their approach to Christ. In this way, Satan kills the saints. This death the believer experiences is a spiritual death and is not a physical death as many believe.

These verses apply:

Mat 24:9 Then shall they (ministers of Satan who control the apostate church) deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

I could show you the verses again which teach that mankind does not have a free will but I am sure you have already read them - you just won't accept them because they will not fit into your Christian paradigm of works.

When Christ comes to a fallen away believer a second time and pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit, He will increase the faith of the believer and will heal their spiritual blindness. When that day arrives for them, it will destroy their worldly paradigm in which they approach Christ. It is quite a spiritual upheaval in their life, so much so, that Peter described it this way when He was converted:

Acts 2:19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and notable Day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Other verses add in earthquakes, lightning, thunder and trumpets. It is the most important day in the life of any person. This is when they are converted and saved. Their worldly paradigm is destroyed and they are given a new paradigm by the Holy Spirit.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

So for you nothing of Scripture is physical, but rather all is mystical and spiritual?

Dear rwb,

You said:
So for you nothing of Scripture is physical, but rather all is mystical and spiritual?

Scripture is written in the spiritual language of Christ.

Isa 28: 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (Christ's spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Paul taught in this same language:

1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Scripture is written in Christ's spiritual language to keep its meaning concealed from all but those who have been given "eyes that can see". For carnally minded believers, they will not be able to understand scripture and as a result, they will "fall backward, and be broken".

After a person is called out from the world and has received the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will remain spiritually blind and controlled by their carnal mind. In this condition, they will not be able to understand and receive the truth of scripture.

Paul had this same issue with the churches Paul began:

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

It is only after a called out believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit that they will be given "eyes that can see" and a new spiritual nature which the Holy Spirit gives them. After receiving the Latter Rain, they will finally start understanding the spiritual language of Christ and the truth it teaches. When this happens, the "truth" will cause a spiritual earthquake within them and their worldly paradigm will come crashing down.

The spiritual language of Christ teaches its messages by using spiritual symbols and by "types".

The spiritual symbols carry meanings which are different that what man's wisdom teaches. Paul says to understand those symbols, we must "compare spiritual things with spiritual".

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

If a believer applies the same meanings to the symbols as Webster's dictionary teaches, the message Christ is teaching will remain veiled.

To understand the meanings of spiritual symbols, we must look only to scripture and find out how those same words are used elsewhere. Then, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, their true meanings can be ascertained.

Also, the spiritual language of Christ teaches us by using "types". "Types" are sometimes historical stories found in scripture or they can be presented as parables. In those stories (historical or fictional), a spiritual message is taught by the events of the story. Spiritual symbols are also used in the story.

The Old Testament is full of historical stories which carry spiritual meanings. Even the laws and ordinances of the Old Covenant are "types" which teach spiritual messages. However, since the Old Covenant not a spiritual covenant, the Jewish Nation complied with those laws and ordinances in a literal and physical way. And just as a believer who is carnal, they, too, will apply the teachings of Christ in a literal and physical way.

Because of such, carnal believers understand the teachings of Christ and end-time prophecy has being literal and physical.

However, with "eyes that can see", the meanings of those prophecies and other teachings of scripture will be understood as teaching spiritual truths which apply "within" a person. Those teachings are usually teaching on certain aspects of the Pathway to Salvation. That pathway is a spiritual pathway and its steps are spiritual events which happen "within" a believer.

Here is on easy example of a "type". It is a literal event which uses spiritual symbols to teach its spiritual message:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. However, if we understand this verse literally, that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying.

Is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?

In Matt 26:52, Christ is using the spiritual symbol of a SWORD to teach us a spiritual message. To understand what this spiritual symbol represents, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edge sword...

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...

From these verses, it is easy to understand that the spiritual word SWORD represents the Word of God who is Christ.

Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Matt 26:52 is that all who take up the Sword (those who have been “called out”, Early Rain), must perish by the Sword (death of the carnal nature). This spiritual death is a necessary part of the conversion process which happens when the Word of God (Christ, the Sword) comes to a person and gives them the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of Fire (judgment of the carnal nature):

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire.

This conversion event is what the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost:

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of FIRE, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the HOLY SPIRIT, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

In the spiritual language of Christ, the Apostles took up the Sword and then died by the SWORD.

In light of what I presented above, do you understand what this verse below is teaching?

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Fire is the spiritual symbol for Christ's judgment. The Sword is the Word of God/Christ. Like Mat 26:52, this verse above is also teaching about the conversion event. The “many” who are “slain of the Lord” is referring to the people who have just been converted & saved.

If a believer understands this verse in a carnal way, they will believe that Christ is going to physically slay most of mankind by His literal sword and by literal fire (in the Lake of Fire). By doing so, they make Christ out to be a murderous monster who has no love for mankind.

However, when this verse is understood spiritually, Christ is shown to be mankind's loving and merciful Savior.

I will respond to your other questions in a separate post or two.

Joe

 

[ScottA]

Hi there,

So the book of Revelation, was the first book of the Bible that I ever read (in its entirety) and I have stayed avidly mindful of what I have read there, ever since. But something has dawned on me, over the years (decades now), there really is no accounting, for the mystery of the truth, that it represents. I am not saying "study is futile" or "it fails to elucidate the truth", what I am saying, is that there is a far deeper mystery at the heart of the mystery of the truth, that it imparts. This is what it is to transcend death, through the reading of a holy text. It is not intuitive.

What is it, then, if it is not intuitive? I'm not sure that I should say. Reading it, has brought me to the point, where I am skeptical of all knowledge. To me, it is a "Tower of Babel" moment. My thoughts are scattering and not coming back, I get flashes of this or that principality (horses, trumpets, seals and bowls), my heart yearns for the Church. It seems that chaos around me is dying, and I am not getting swept up in it. This is just a taste of the dynamic that seems to sweep from every page of that book!

In my heart, I know what I want to say, but I find the book of Revelation far more engrossing than that - it is the book of Revelation you should be reading! I have not come to blow my own trumpet, I find that I am utterly rent, that there will never be another book like this! What is God trying to say? That's just it, I think God would prefer that we were just in awe, of all that He can do. In time, God will make the book of Revelation clear, and our obedience to Him will be complete, whatever that obedience might be. As Solomon says "Where do the fool and the wise man end up? Is it not the same place? The grave?" (from memory, Ecclesiastes).

Now I know I hear you say "where is there power, in this? For Christ demands power?" and don't get me wrong, I wish there was a power I could point to, but the truth is all power bows to Christ, all principalities praise His Name. We are nothing, chaff, a dandelion floating on the wind desperately clinging to its one and only seed. We should be in awe of Christ! This is His Revelation! The mystery continues, we do not know its depth or its breadth, only that its tidal waves keep surging, the sea becoming ever more billowing. The world hides, the world and its men cower, but we stand in full appreciation of the might and strength of the Word of God - ready to exalt, ready to extol!

And then I suppose, despite all this, I have the confidence that God's pity will be one great and last master stroke, for me to appreciate. I will stand, for God and He will deal with me as He always has. I will remember to obey the last commandment. I will serve. The living heart of the book of Revelation, giving me constant life; engendering in me a knowledge that all is God's, don't think about it, all is His.

God bless.

Search for mystery in Christ.

God bless.

Indeed, "in time, God will make the book of Revelation clear", as this too has been declared to occur "when the seventh angel is about to sound"--and has now come!

The book of Revelation is the synopsis of all that is written, all "the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this", the events seen and unseen during "a time, times, and half a time", which is [all] of time.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Where in Scripture can I find confirmation that believers receive a new heaven and new earth the moment of conversion?

Dear rwb,

You asked:
Where in Scripture can I find confirmation that believers receive a new heaven and new earth the moment of conversion?

The New Heaven and the New Earth which mankind is to receive as an inheritance are not literal places in which we will live at some future time. The New Heaven and New Earth are spiritual symbols which carry meanings which are different from what man's wisdom teaches (1Cor 2:13).

Under the New Covenant, mankind will become God's new temple:

1Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Within His new temple, God has a throne room from which He rules:

Psa 103:19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.

The new throne room which God is preparing is located in the Heavens of His new temple. The symbol of Heavens is referring to the mind of Christ which each new child of God will receive from Christ. This is the New Heaven.

1Cor 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

The spiritual symbol "earth" is related to mankind's carnality. It can represent mankind's spiritual dwelling place (spiritual state of being) or it can represent mankind's carnal nature. The earth is also sometimes referred to as dust, ground or a field.

Here are a few verses which apply:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

When Satan deceives mankind, it does it through our carnal nature.

Psa 44:25 For our soul is bowed down to the dust: our belly cleaveth unto the earth.

John 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

Isa 14:7 The whole (New) earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the (New) earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Mankind's spiritual makeup consists of a heart & soul (individual consciousness), a mind (where the soul’s thoughts and beliefs are processed) and finally a spiritual nature.

Adam and Eve are said to be “one flesh”.

Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Adam + Eve = One Flesh

It is the same as:

Head + Body = One Flesh

The Head represents the mind and the body represents the spiritual nature.

The mind is represented by the symbol Heaven and the spiritual nature is represented by the symbol Earth.

This formula applies:

Heaven + Earth = One Flesh

From the beginning, the spiritual nature which was given to Adam by God was marred:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Because of this flaw, mankind developed a spiritual nature that is carnal (one that is controlled by our flesh). This carnal spiritual nature is called the Old Earth. And since the carnal nature is what controls our mind, our mind also becomes carnal. This carnal mind is called the Old Heaven.

These formulas apply:

Old Heaven + Old Earth = One Flesh

Carnal Mind + Carnal Nature = One Flesh

After a person is receives the Spirit of God, they will receive a new spiritual nature (New Earth) and a new mind (New Heaven). From their New Earth and New Heaven, judgment will fall on their original Earth and Heaven. After this conversion event is complete, the person will be guided by their new spiritual nature which the Holy Spirit gives them. This new spiritual nature will give them a new heart, which will in turn, produce a new mind within them; the mind of Christ.

These formulas apply:

New Heaven + New Earth = One Flesh

Mind of Christ + Holy Spirit = One Flesh

In other words, we will become like Christ:

1Cor 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

This is our salvation!

Below are a few of the verses which speak of the New Heaven and the New Earth. Try to understand them in light of what I presented above.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

2Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pet 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Look more closely at the last verse above (Rev 21:1). The first Heaven and the first Earth will pass away (burned up, destroyed by judgment) and there will be no more sea. The sea represents mankind in our originally created spiritual condition. This is why the Seven Headed Beast of Revelation, which represents the "worse than the first" spiritual state of mankind, originally rises up out of the sea. Once a person is converted, they will no longer be a part of mankind (no more sea). They will be a new creature; a child of God.

2Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

With a carnal understanding of scripture, one might conclude that the Old Heaven and Old Earth are literal places. However, since Christ's words are spirit (John 6:63) and the spirit happens within us, scripture cannot be speaking of literal places called Heaven and Earth. To understand the truth of Christ's teachings, they must be spiritually understood.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

And where might I read the Word telling me the faithful must first have a final judgment experience as a final part of our conversion?

Dear rwb:

You asked:
And where might I read the Word telling me the faithful must first have a final judgment experience as a final part of our conversion?

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The spiritual symbol "fire" represents the judgment of Christ.

When Christ comes to convert us, He first baptizes us with His Spirit and then He baptizes us with His judgment (fire). With His Spirit, Christ will "gather His wheat into the garner" and with His judgment, He will "thoroughly purge His floor". This is conversion.

These verses also apply:

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Luke 12:49 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

Christ longs to start His judgment on the earth because it will remove all the impurities from within a believer. As I said, judgment is a part of the conversion process.

Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

All mankind is judged because all mankind is carnal and sinful.

1Pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1Pet 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The First Fruits are the first to be judged.

Psa 9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

Judgment is not only used to destroy the carnality of a believer, it is also used to teach us righteousness.

Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

The judgment of Christ is essential to mankind's salvation. It is a part of the conversion process.

Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

I will answer another one of your questions in another post.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

And where does Scripture tell us that after conversion a believer with eyes that can see, no longer receives truth which comes from the natural world?

Dear rwb,

You asked:
And where does Scripture tell us that after conversion a believer with eyes that can see, no longer receives truth which comes from the natural world?

Here is where Christ teaches it:

Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, it is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, how is it that ye do not understand?

In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on the spiritual language of God's Word - His language. At this point in time (before they were converted at Pentecost), the disciples had not yet received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and because of such, they were still spiritually blind. They had been called out from the world (as was the whole Nation of Israel), but they still could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response from the Apostles is recorded in scripture. However, Christ answers His own question in the very next four verses.

Mark 8:22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Since Christ is the Word of God, He teaches us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, Christ goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer in type by the healing of a blind man. This type is the same type which Christ uses with the Old Testament events to teach His spiritual truths.

In verse 23, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes the carnal aspect of His healing. Christ does not have to tell the blind man to look down, the blind man just does it naturally. The spit (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (understanding). This event represents the time when an unbeliever is called out from the world and enters the church. After Christ asks the man what he could see, the man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as Trees" is a spiritual symbol for called out believers who walk by sight rather than by faith. At this point, the blind man is a type of a called out believer. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted.

This first healing of the blind man reflects the true spiritual condition of a new believer when they first enter the church. At that time, they are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. They can see a little but that only opens the door to Satan's deceptions - deceptions which each new believer readily accepts due to their carnal nature still being in control of them.

Peter says this near-sighted condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again, but as He does, Christ has the man look up instead of down. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents the spiritual aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down at the earth. From that moment onward, we now know that the blind man is a type of a called and chosen believer who has received both the Early and Latter Rains. He has been given eyes that can see. From his new ability to understand God's Word, he will then come out from Satan's deceptions and will begin walking by faith. He will be included in the resurrection of the First Fruits and will receive life during the ages.

Paul's conversion is the pattern of the pathway to salvation all the Elect will follow (1Tim 1:16). In Paul's conversion experience, it teaches when a believer receives "eyes that can see".

Paul received the Early Rain of the Spirit (in "type") on the Damascus Road. At that time, Paul first called Jesus "Lord". However, Paul could not "see" Christ but could only hear His voice. This represents Paul's carnality which blinds him from seeing Christ. To re-enforce this truth, Paul also became literally blind. And like Paul, we, too, will remain blind and will have to be "lead by the hand" by others who claim to know Christ. However, those believers are also spiritually blind (the blind leading the blind).

After Paul arrived in Damascus, he remained blind for "three" days. The number three represents a spiritual process. Paul also didn't eat or drink during those three days. This represents that Paul could not eat Christ's bread or drink His New Wine of the New Covenant. It is at this time, that a believer will "fall away" under the influence the the spirit of anti-Christ and be made "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45). This is the spiritual process Paul experienced in Damascus. For this reason, it was necessary for Christ to "come again".

After the three days ended, Christ (typed by Ananias) came to Paul by traveling a street called "straight". This street represents that Paul responded to the call of Elijah and repented of his works. Christ's path was then made "straight". When Christ came, Paul received the Latter Rain and the scales fell off his eyes. With his new vision, Paul was told to "eat" meat.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Did not Paul write extensively of his daily dying to himself in his struggles against his flesh? If man has been born again does not Scripture affirm, we have already passed from death and darkness to light and life through the judgment of Christ on the cross and His glorious resurrection? And how is one a believer according to Scripture if they have not already been born again? Your doctrine leaves me scratching my head and makes me believe that you and ScottA have been taught this rubbish by the same esoteric, mystical false Gnostics and has no biblical truth..

Dear rwb,

You asked:
Did not Paul write extensively of his daily dying to himself in his struggles against his flesh?

Yes, Paul died daily to His flesh. This means that He did not walk according to his flesh but walked according to the Spirit.

After a believer is fully converted and matured, they, too, will walk as Paul did. However, this ability only comes after receiving both the Early and Latter Rain and the completion of the Day of the Lord (judgment) within the believer. This is conversion.

You asked:
If man has been born again does not Scripture affirm, we have already passed from death and darkness to light and life through the judgment of Christ on the cross and His glorious resurrection?

Absolutely YES! But to be "born again", we must be converted which involves being baptized by the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and being baptized by Fire (judgment of the Day of the Lord). Once fully converted, scripture calls this the "First Resurrection" (Rev 20:5). It is the spiritual resurrection which occurs while we remain in the flesh. At that time, we pass from death to life and from darkness to light.

The First Resurrection is what Christ was teaching here:

John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

When a believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit and is converted, they are spiritually "born again". From that point going forward, they can never spiritually die again. Satan's temptations will have no ability to harm or kill them. To prove this truth, the believer will be tested just as Christ was tested after He fasted for 40 days. And just as Christ passed the test of Satan, so will the new converted believer. This time of testing is presented in Rev 20:7-10.

That is what Christ meant when He told Martha that those who "believeth in me shall never die".

However, the Pathway to Salvation does include a time of spiritually dying. It occurs to all new believers shortly after they have been called out from the world with the Early Rain of the Spirit. It is taught in several places of scripture but it is well hidden by the spiritual language of Christ.

This spiritual death is what it means when scripture says that Satan kills the saints. It is a believer's loss of salvation. Satan does this by deceiving the believer and causing them to turn to "works" (Old Covenant) rather than to solely approach Christ by faith (New Covenant). When a believer mixes "works" with faith, they will spiritually die because they cannot serve two masters (Christ and Satan).

Here is one place where Christ teaches this truth about spiritually dying after being called out from the world:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man (time of the Early Rain), he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished (the spiritually blind believer cannot receive the truth of Christ). 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself (the spirit of anti-Christ), and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first (the believer falls away and spiritually dies). Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents how Satan delivers his false truth to mankind. Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more (represents the spirit of anti-Christ, Satan's perfect deception) since their house remains void of the truth of Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within them, they now have EIGHT. The number EIGHT is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first. With the spirit of anti-Christ indwelling the believer, they spiritually die and their Old Man becomes a Man of Sin.

Joe

 

[rwb]

Dear rwb,

You said:
So for you nothing of Scripture is physical, but rather all is mystical and spiritual?

Scripture is written in the spiritual language of Christ.

Isa 28: 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (Christ's spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

That's not what Paul tells us. Paul says the Words of God must be spiritually discerned, by those who possess His Spirit in them. Paul does not say the Word of God is written in spiritual language that Gnostics, like yourself, believe can only be discerned by those with this so-called higher level of spiritual understanding.

1 Corinthians 2:10-14 (KJV) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[rwb]

Yes, Paul died daily to His flesh. This means that He did not walk according to his flesh but walked according to the Spirit.

After a believer is fully converted and matured, they, too, will walk as Paul did. However, this ability only comes after receiving both the Early and Latter Rain and the completion of the Day of the Lord (judgment) within the believer. This is conversion.

When penning his epistle to the saints of Christ at Rome, Paul was a fully converted, mature believer, indwelt with the life giving Spirit from Christ. Still he confesses the daily struggle against the war taking place in his mind between doing what is good and that which is evil. Even though inwardly, through the Spirit Paul knows to do good, but as long as he is held captive by his body destined to death, there is a struggle, even for Paul to always yield to the Spirit in him and do good, and not yield to that which is physical and desires to fulfill the lusts of his carnal flesh. Paul warns us there will always be this battle until we are delivered from these bodies of death, or when we breathe our last and ascend a spiritual body, a living soul to be with the Lord in heaven. That's why Paul longed to be delivered from his body of flesh, so that he would be present with the Lord in heaven.

Romans 7:14-24 (KJV) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[FaithWillDo]

That's not what Paul tells us. Paul says the Words of God must be spiritually discerned, by those who possess His Spirit in them. Paul does not say the Word of God is written in spiritual language that Gnostics, like yourself, believe can only be discerned by those with this so-called higher level of spiritual understanding.

1 Corinthians 2:10-14 (KJV) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Dear rwb,
Paul says that truth is "spiritually discerned". If it is spiritually discerned, then it cannot be understood with the carnal mind. Paul also says that the Holy Spirit teaches us the language of Christ because the words used in scripture don't mean the same thing as what "man's wisdom teaches". Paul further states that the "natural man" cannot receive what the Spirit teaches because it comes across to him as "foolishness". Even Orthodox Christianity thinks it is nothing more than "foolishness" to believe that Christ can actually save the world as His Father sent Him to do. Amazing!

And as I pointed out in my other posts, the "natural man" is not destroyed until a believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit. It is only then that a believer is given "eyes that can see". Until that time, the carnal mind of the believer will veil their understanding of the truth of scripture.

Paul also said this:

1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Paul speaks (teaches) the wisdom (truth) of God in a mystery. This means that when Paul teaches the truth of Christ, he teaches it in the same concealed manner as Christ did.

Even with "eyes that can see", the truth of God is hard to find:

Prov 2:1 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

Finding the truth of God in scripture is like finding "hidden" treasure. It takes a great deal of time and study and prayer before Christ will reveal the truth of scripture to a converted believer.

When Christ came in the flesh and taught His truth, He only taught it in a very concealed way through parables so that their messages would not be understood.

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

The truth which is taught in the parables is hidden from the natural man and is only revealed to the converted Elect. When Christ made this statement above to His disciples, they could not yet understand the parables. Their understanding of the parables only came AFTER they were converted on the Day of Pentecost.

Even to this day, the teachings of the parables are concealed from the church. The church is just too spiritually blind and deceived to understand them.

Joe

 

[rwb]

Dear rwb,
Paul says that truth is "spiritually discerned". If it is spiritually discerned, then it cannot be understood with the carnal mind. Paul also says that the Holy Spirit teaches us the language of Christ because the words used in scripture don't mean the same thing as what "man's wisdom teaches". Paul further states that the "natural man" cannot receive what the Spirit teaches because it comes across to him as "foolishness". Even Orthodox Christianity thinks it is nothing more than "foolishness" to believe that Christ can actually save the world as His Father sent Him to do. Amazing!

Spiritually discerned simply means the Spirit given to whosoever is born again, born of the Spirit teaches guides and teaches us the things of God. The carnal unbelieving mind cannot understand the things of God because they have not the Spirit of God within them to instruct them.

John 14:16-17 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 16:7-13 (KJV) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The Spirit within every believer does not teach us some so-called spiritual language of Christ. He guides us into all truth.

John 16:13 (KJV) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
John 16:14-15 (KJV) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[FaithWillDo]

When penning his epistle to the saints of Christ at Rome, Paul was a fully converted, mature believer, indwelt with the life giving Spirit from Christ. Still he confesses the daily struggle against the war taking place in his mind between doing what is good and that which is evil. Even though inwardly, through the Spirit Paul knows to do good, but as long as he is held captive by his body destined to death, there is a struggle, even for Paul to always yield to the Spirit in him and do good, and not yield to that which is physical and desires to fulfill the lusts of his carnal flesh. Paul warns us there will always be this battle until we are delivered from these bodies of death, or when we breathe our last and ascend a spiritual body, a living soul to be with the Lord in heaven. That's why Paul longed to be delivered from his body of flesh, so that he would be present with the Lord in heaven.

Romans 7:14-24 (KJV) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Dear rwb,
You are completely misunderstanding what Paul is teaching in chapter 7.

Paul is addressing why the natural man cannot follow the Law. Paul is not saying that he walks by the flesh. He is only teaching why the natural man does.

When Paul finished his teaching, He ends it by giving the answer to the problem he laid out in the above verses. That answer is Jesus Christ and His work of changing us spiritually:

Rom 7:25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

Paul continues in chapter 8:

Rom 8:4 He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.

The Spirit is what empowers a converted Elect believer (like Paul) to "no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit".

For that reason, scripture says this about the Holy Spirit:

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive POWER, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

1Cor 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in POWER.

Also consider these verses:

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Spiritually discerned simply means the Spirit given to whosoever is born again, born of the Spirit teaches guides and teaches us the things of God. The carnal unbelieving mind cannot understand the things of God because they have not the Spirit of God within them to instruct them.

John 14:16-17 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 16:7-13 (KJV) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The Spirit within every believer does not teach us some so-called spiritual language of Christ. He guides us into all truth.

John 16:13 (KJV) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
John 16:14-15 (KJV) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Dear rwb:

You are not listening to this scripture:

Isa 28: 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

This scripture applies to the church. The church has not received the Latter Rain of the Spirit so as to be "weaned from milk". Paul addressed this issue with the Corinthian church who could not get past the milk of the Word (1Cor 3:1-3). And now since the 1st Century, after the introduction of the spirit of anti-Christ into the church, the church does not even have the milk of the Word anymore. There just isn't any truth in the doctrines of Orthodox Christianity because they have no ability to understand and receive the truth of Christ.

Joe

 

[Timtofly]

Dear Timtofly,
Mankind's ability to make choices is not in question in scripture. What is in question is whether or not those choices are made freely by the individual or by God's direction.

Consider computers; they make choices frequently but no one would say that a computer has free will. The ability to make choices has no bearing on whether or not mankind has a free will.

To understand if mankind as a free will or not, we must look to the verses which teach about the "cause" of the choices mankind makes. When we do that, we find that mankind's choices come by God's direction. There simply are no verses which say differently.

If a person has faith in Christ as most believer's say that do, but yet won't believe what Christ says, then where is their faith?

Faith is not just believing that Christ exists and that He is mankind's God. Faith in Christ is much more than that. We MUST also believe that what Christ teaches us in scripture is true. We MUST also trust Him to accomplish all that He says He will accomplish.

Most believers are very lacking in faith when it comes to believing and trusting what Christ says in scripture. For them, they only believe what fits into their preexisting paradigm box. When scripture challenges those beliefs, they find a way to twist and turn scripture to make it conform. They really don't have a "love for the truth".

This is why the false Doctrine of Free Will came into existence. It's not because it is taught in scripture; it's because the carnal mind of man has a preference to prove to God that they are somehow worthy of salvation and worthy of having a relationship with Him.

Christ said this:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, the old is better.

The Old Wine represents the blood sacrifices of the Old Covenant of Law. This covenant is founded upon the "works" of man to make themselves acceptable to God. This preference for "works" is built-in to mankind's carnal nature. From that preference, the many religions of the world were created.

When an unbeliever is called out from the world, their carnal nature will continue to control their thoughts and beliefs of their already carnal mind. The "earnest" of the Early Rain is not given in enough measure to change it. Because the carnal mind remains in control of the new believer, it will "veil" Christ from their understanding. As a result, they will reject the New Wine of Grace through Faith where Christ's does 100% of the "works" of their salvation. For this reason, the Doctrine of Free Will was born.

Under the Doctrine of Free Will, mankind must do something to earn their salvation - even if it is only taking credit for their confession of faith. However, many believers don't stop there. They will follow the law of tithing, Sabbath Day observance, eating only "clean" foods, or other "works" which they feel compelled to perform so that Christ will find them more worthy of salvation.

Paul says that when a believer has this mindset, they become a debtor to keeping the whole Law and that they are "fallen from grace". And being under the Law, they are not saved.

Turning to "works" (even just one) is the sin that leads to death. Satan's deceptions and lies all focus on having a believer turn to "works" in their approach to Christ. In this way, Satan kills the saints. This death the believer experiences is a spiritual death and is not a physical death as many believe.

These verses apply:

Mat 24:9 Then shall they (ministers of Satan who control the apostate church) deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

I could show you the verses again which teach that mankind does not have a free will but I am sure you have already read them - you just won't accept them because they will not fit into your Christian paradigm of works.

When Christ comes to a fallen away believer a second time and pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit, He will increase the faith of the believer and will heal their spiritual blindness. When that day arrives for them, it will destroy their worldly paradigm in which they approach Christ. It is quite a spiritual upheaval in their life, so much so, that Peter described it this way when He was converted:

Acts 2:19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and notable Day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Other verses add in earthquakes, lightning, thunder and trumpets. It is the most important day in the life of any person. This is when they are converted and saved. Their worldly paradigm is destroyed and they are given a new paradigm by the Holy Spirit.

Joe

No, you are claiming no one has a choice. There is no "doctrine of free will". That is an excuse of your theology that claims determinism overwrites free will.

Also, free will has nothing to do with making oneself look good.

You posted the definition. You need to keep free will as the ability to choose, free of any external manipulation whatsoever.

You keep leaving this definition and talking about made up things.

Are there some people who have a more defined purpose than others? More than likely, yes. But that does not remove free will from existence. God can remove a person and replace that person with another. There are billions of people out there.

Examples: King Saul and King David. Esau and Jacob. 1 Kings 13 where an old prophet lied and caused a man of God to disobey and be killed. Did these people have other choices besides the ones they made? How would we know? They had to live with the choices they made and the rest is history.

Humans are not computers nor robots. That is one good reason why humans have free will. Only God has the ability to even allow free will. Otherwise, yes, all creation is just a predetermined program, including humans. And NO! Sin is not the reason there is free will. Sin is the result of Adam's free will.

 

[rwb]

Dear rwb,
You are completely misunderstanding what Paul is teaching in chapter 7.

Paul is addressing why the natural man cannot follow the Law. Paul is not saying that he walks by the flesh. He is only teaching why the natural man does.

When Paul finished his teaching, He ends it by giving the answer to the problem he laid out in the above verses. That answer is Jesus Christ and His work of changing us spiritually:

Rom 7:25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

Paul continues in chapter 8:

Rom 8:4 He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.

The Spirit is what empowers a converted Elect believer (like Paul) to "no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit".

For that reason, scripture says this about the Holy Spirit:

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive POWER, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

1Cor 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in POWER.

Also consider these verses:

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Joe

Paul struggles against the flesh just as ALL who are still burdened with mortal flesh do. There is a spiritual battle being waged between the fleshly spirit of man, and the Spirit of God within the believers. Why do you think Paul instructs us to daily ready ourselves for battle by putting on the full armour of God? Paul is not excluded from the spiritual warfare every believer endures in this life. This is "great tribulation" that Christ warns us will accompany the spread of the Gospel of Christ Jesus our Lord. Paul personally experienced the same spiritual warfare, so he warns every believer that we too must fight the good fight of faith, never doubting, always believing because the devil never gives up warring against our minds until we are rid of the mortal flesh.

Ephesians 6:10-18 (KJV) Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Paul reveals to us how this spiritual battle every believer must be engaged in this life is won! By serving God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength, not allowing my mortal fleshly desires to deceive me into becoming again a servant of sin. This is how Paul and every believer since Him lives by His Spirit and does not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. As long as believers are clothed in mortal, corruptible flesh, the desire that comes from our own mind and this world will always be with us. It's a spiritual battle, not a physical one.

Romans 7:24-25 (KJV) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[rwb]

Dear rwb:

You are not listening to this scripture:

Isa 28: 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

This scripture applies to the church. The church has not received the Latter Rain of the Spirit so as to be "weaned from milk". Paul addressed this issue with the Corinthian church who could not get past the milk of the Word (1Cor 3:1-3). And now since the 1st Century, after the introduction of the spirit of anti-Christ into the church, the church does not even have the milk of the Word anymore. There just isn't any truth in the doctrines of Orthodox Christianity because they have no ability to understand and receive the truth of Christ.

Joe

It appears you don't even know what/who the Church on earth is! Saying the Church has not received the Spirit proves you don't know what you're talking about! The babes in Christ in Corinth, Paul still referred to as brethren. Paul wasn't admonishing them because they did not have the Spirit. He admonished them because they did. But still they were acting like carnal men, because they were causing division in the church by arguing about which Apostle they should follow, when all the Apostles served the same Christ Jesus our Lord.

It appears to me that it is you that does not have ability to understand and receive the truth plainly found written in the Scriptures.