LIMITED ATONEMENT: US vs THEM (the L of TULIP)

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BreadOfLife

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So Protestants are still anathema and Catholics can still buy indulgences?

(While I try not to hate the church, I still find those members that behave deliberately boorish to be annoying and choose to dislike them as individuals on their own “lack of merit”. You tempt me to change my position on the church.)
ONE lie at a time . . .

First of all - the sale of Indulgences was an ABUSE - not an official Church practice. It was a condemned practice.
Some men, like Johann Rerzel i Germany too it upon themselves to do this - WITHOUT mandate or approval.

Secindy - the Anathemas issued at Trent were ONLY aimed at ex-Cathollics - NOT those "born" into Peotestantism or those who had NO faith and converted.
ALL of your Protestant Fathers were Catholics and were the subject of these Anathemas.

So, once again - the Catholic Church has NEVER changed a position on a doctrinal matter.
By contrsst - vurtually EVERY Protestant faction has changed its position on contraception. Before the Anglican Church's 1930 Lambeth Conference - EVERY Protestane denomination condemed this practice.
 
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Scott Downey

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Titus 2:14
who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

Peter also equates those God redeems as those He saved, written here to the elect chosen of God whom He saves.
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Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims​

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the [a]pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

A Heavenly Inheritance​

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance [b]incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been [c]grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not [d]seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to [e]us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.

Living Before God Our Father​

13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your [f]stay here in fear;

18 knowing that you were not redeemed with [g]corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was [h]manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
 

MatthewG

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fighting against the other is a losing mentality. Correction of what is true is truth and at least is can be known, heard, and seen. You gotta let go though and leave room for the spirit to move and work on the mind and hearts of others even if they disagree with you. You also must study and seek.
 

MatthewG

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There is no such thing as limited atonement unless you believe it.

Either Jesus paid for the sins of all people, or he did not.
 

BreadOfLife

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Bye Bye, not going to respond anymore as what you are teaching is false.
The redeemed are the saved, there are no redeemed unsaved people.

Redemption scripturally and not according to a man's philosophy (yours) is only for the people of God whom He saves.
Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and [b]prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, [c]both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Luke 21:27-29
27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”
Yes, you seem a bit confused for this converstion.

When doctrines of men like Calvin take hold - ony the grace of God can rescue you from them . . .
 

Scott Downey

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Another example of God redeeming His people.
Exodus 6:6
Therefore say to the children of Israel: ‘I am the Lord; I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, I will rescue you from their bondage, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments.

Exodus 15:13
You in Your mercy have led forth The people whom You have redeemed; You have guided them in Your strength To Your holy habitation.

To not be redeemed means death.
Leviticus 27:29
No person under the ban, who may become doomed to destruction among men, shall be redeemed, but shall surely be put to death.



Luke 1
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:

68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us

In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

Whom the Lord loves, He redeems, and this agrees with Ephesians 2 about those God loves He saves.

Deuteronomy 7:8
but because the Lord loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
 

Rightglory

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To all who hold to Limited Atonement

I have never read any post that actually explains what Limited atonement might be. You assert it but never explain.
So here is your opportunity to explain just how Limited Atonement works.
 

Ronald Nolette

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No - I wholeheartedly reject it.

The sins of the ENTIRE world for ALL time were atoned for on the cross.
That doesn't mean that everyone will be saved.
No Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world Propitiation is not the same as atonment.

When ones sins are atoned for- they are removed! When someone makes propitiation for someone's sins- it is an acceptable sacrifice for them.
 

MatthewG

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And you also believe hell is defeated by Christ and all people are saved.
Oh, not everyone saved to the kingdom of God, but apparently a lot of people say that’s what I believe which is otherwise. So this is terrible to assume.
 

MatthewG

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I wonder how many here can say they are part of the holy unblemished perfect church now today because there is no church that’s perfect today unless you’re part of it and you assume that you’re going to be Gods chosen people taking away from this earth and whatever else you can think of.

It’s natural to assume things, but whenever it is going down to the truth of the matter, people should realize that the Bible was never written to them. The Bible teaches spiritual principles, and principles to live by which are by far more superior than anything else can teach you. The Bible is also trust worthy, and no one has authority over the Bible, nor do they have the ability to use the Bible as an authority figure.

Therefore, in the end it seems like today, considering the bride of Christ that was taken away back then in that day and age, doesn’t necessarily apply to us now today, nor the new testament, and the commands that Jesus gave, but the New Testament is where God writes on the hearts and minds of individuals by through the spirit.

And there are those that are adopted in the kingdom, and they’re those that are not adopted into the kingdom because of faith and only faith, pleases God.

My overall belief is that all people are saved from hell, Satan, Sin, demons, however, not everyone is saved to be in the kingdom of God.

So in the end, that’s what it seems to be, Scott.
 
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Rightglory

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And you also believe hell is defeated by Christ and all people are saved.
What total misunderstanding of the correlation between the fall and redemption.
If not for Christ, there would be no hell. By His Resurrection and overcoming death hell was actually established. Now that mankind has immortal life there needs to be a place for believers and for unbelievers.
 
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Scott Downey

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I wonder how many here can say they are part of the holy unblemished perfect church now today because there is no church that’s perfect today unless you’re part of it and you assume that you’re going to be Gods chosen people taking away from this earth and whatever else you can think of.

It’s natural to assume things, but whenever it is going down to the truth of the matter, people should realize that the Bible was never written to them. The Bible teaches spiritual principles, and principles to live by which are by far more superior than anything else can teach you. The Bible is also trust worthy, and no one has authority over the Bible, nor do they have the ability to use the Bible as an authority figure.

Therefore, in the end it seems like today, considering the bride of Christ that was taken away back then in that day and age, doesn’t necessarily apply to us now today, nor the new testament, and the commands that Jesus gave, but the New Testament is where God writes on the hearts and minds of individuals by through the spirit.

And there are those that are adopted in the kingdom, and they’re those that are not adopted into the kingdom because of faith and only faith, pleases God.

My overall belief is that all people are saved from hell, Satan, Sin, demons, however, not everyone is saved to be in the kingdom of God.

So in the end, that’s what it seems to be, Scott.
Except Jesus tells us where the people who die go after death, and it is either to a place He has prepared for them to live with Him forever or a fiery torment, an outer darkness of suffering eternally separated from God.
 

atpollard

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To all who hold to Limited Atonement

I have never read any post that actually explains what Limited atonement might be. You assert it but never explain.
So here is your opportunity to explain just how Limited Atonement works.
Limited Atonement:

Therefore, WE are not afraid to believe, proclaim and firmly hold that Jesus Christ came into the the world to accomplish exactly what He did accomplish … to save “a multitude which no man can number” [Revelation 7:9]. Furthermore, because of this, WE believe that every person for whom Christ died must - beyond the shadow of a doubt certain:
  • be cleansed from sin
  • be washed in His blood
  • stand redeemed before the Father’s throne
WE do not believe that Jesus made any atonement for those that are damned. Christ only makes EFFECTUAL atonement, Christ does not fail in atoning for people. WE do not believe that the blood of Christ was spilled with the intention of saving those whom GOD Foreknew would never be saved.

  • John 10:15 [NKJV] 15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. [not the goats]
  • John 10:25-29 [NKJV] 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
 
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MatthewG

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Except Jesus tells us where the people who die go after death, and it is either to a place He has prepared for them to live with Him forever or a fiery torment, an outer darkness of suffering eternally separated from God.

John, the beloved also reveals things in revelation. It’s called revelation, chapter 21 and 22 whatever you make of those things is between you and God, not between you and me.

It’s obvious there are people that are gonna be outside of the kingdom.

Therefore, we agree.

That when it comes to the lake, a fire, I believe only people have their part in it, and they’re not there forever as some people say.

That is a matter for you and God handle between you and him of what you truly believe about those things.

Cause I’m not here to debate I don’t care what you may believe as that naturally does not involve me and involves individual personal relationship with God, and looking and reading, and studying the word if a person is desires of truth, being guided, of course, by the Holy Spirit, or the spirit of Christ.
 

Rightglory

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Limited Atonement:

Therefore, WE are not afraid to believe, proclaim and firmly hold that Jesus Christ came into the the world to accomplish exactly what He did accomplish … to save “a multitude which no man can number” [Revelation 7:9]. Furthermore, because of this, WE believe that every person for whom Christ died must - beyond the shadow of a doubt certain:
Rev 7:9 does not even reference the atonement. It is actually a picture of heaven and John sees a host of believers from all corners of the world.
  • be cleansed from sin
Christ did not cleanse a single sin(s) by His Atonement, save possibly the Thief. Your view actually eliminates the whole function of Christ being our High Priest and upon repentance and confession of sin will forgive our sins because He was the sacrifice for those sins.
  • be washed in His blood
Acts 22:16 one is washed in His Blood by baptism I Cor 6:11 here again is part of man's response of faith and baptism. These and others are not part of the atonement, but the work of God forgiving ours sins being sanctified by faith, and being baptised.
  • stand redeemed before the Father’s throne
Every thing that was given to Christ Col 1:16-20 has been reconciled, redeemed, justified, all mean to be made right with God. That is part of the atonement. Which is why Christ is the Savior of the world, I John 4:14. Why He tasted death for all men Heb 2:9. Was the propitiation (covered sins) of the world. I John 2:2.
WE do not believe that Jesus made any atonement for those that are damned. Christ only makes EFFECTUAL atonement, Christ does not fail in atoning for people. WE do not believe that the blood of Christ was spilled with the intention of saving those whom GOD Foreknew would never be saved.
That means per scripture, you would of necessity believe that hell does not exist. Christ never rose from the dead. There will be no judgement, there will be no New Heaven or a New Earth. I Cor 15: 12-22 withe emphasis of vs 16-18. In other words you just made the actual atonement non-existent.
You are correct in that Christ does not fail in atoning for people, actually mankind/world. All that was given to Him He will raise it in the last day. John 6:39.
  • John 10:15 [NKJV] 15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. [not the goats]
This is not about the judgement but of atonement. Notice the words "the sheep" That is all mankind. This is part of the Atonement.
  • John 10:25-29 [NKJV] 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
Now notice he is speaking of believers and calls them MY SHEEP. These verses are not about the atonement, but is about man's response in believing.
Where is any reference to the primary and most important work of Christ's atonement? Redeeming us from the curse of death. Without this primary purpose, the secondary, sacrifice for sin is worthless, non-effectual. That is clearly stated in I Cor 15:16-18.

If you actually believe in a limited atonement you will need to find texts that support that mankind has two distinct human natures. One that Christ assumed and thus raised those natures to life. And for the rest of mankind would have a different human nature that was not assumed by Christ thus not saved from death.
Respective of the sacrifice for sin, just how do you split that sacrifice. Does the amount of blood determine how many will be saved? Where are the texts that support limited atonement.?
 
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ByGraceThroughFaith

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(I did a search and it seems to have been a while since there was a topic dedicated to Limited Atonement.)

There are different theories about REDEMPTION.

We all, if we are Christian, believe that Jesus Christ died to redeem.

Beyond that, different people teach a different NATURE of the atonement and a different DESIGN of the redemption. With what follows, I propose to lay out in clear and logical terms how THEIR view is wrong and OUR view is correct. Nothing more and nothing less.

PART I: THEM​

THEY claim that Jesus Christ did not die with the intent to save any particular person. When Jesus died, that death did not, all alone and completely by itself, secure the salvation of any specific living human being beyond any shadow of a doubt. THEY teach that Jesus Christ died to make salvation possible for all men and available to all men … that because of Christ’s work of redemption, any man who pleases may obtain eternal life by doing something else.

If THEY are willing to be honest, then THEY will be forced to admit that IF no man was willing to give way and voluntarily surrender to God’s grace, then Christ’s atonement would have saved no one. THEY must admit that in their belief there is no PARTICULARITY in the atonement of Christ for one individual over another. According to THEM, Jesus Christ died on the cross for Judas in hell as much as for Peter in heaven. THEY believe that for every person who is consigned to the eternal fires of hell, there was a redemption made that was every bit as real, and was identical to, the redemption made for every person who stands before the throne in heaven.

PART II: US​

WE believe that when Jesus Christ died, that He had an objective in view. WE believe that objective will with complete assurance and beyond any shadow of a doubt be accomplished. WE measure the intent of the death of Christ by the effect that it accomplished. If THEY were to ask US the question:

What was the purpose or intention of Christ’s death?

WE would respond with the obvious answer: “What the death of Christ accomplished.” The measure of the effect IS the measure of the intent when one is speaking of God’s Love. Is is nonsense to think that God Almighty’s intentions could be frustrated by anything! It beggars the imagination that the design of something so great as the Atonement could have in any way, shape or form missed the mark in any measure.

Therefore, WE are not afraid to believe, proclaim and firmly hold that Jesus Christ came into the the world to accomplish exactly what He did accomplish … to save “a multitude which no man can number” [Revelation 7:9]. Furthermore, because of this, WE believe that every person for whom Christ died must - beyond the shadow of a doubt certain:
  • be cleansed from sin
  • be washed in His blood
  • stand redeemed before the Father’s throne
WE do not believe that Jesus made any atonement for those that are damned. Christ only makes EFFECTUAL atonement, Christ does not fail in atoning for people. WE cannot think that the blood of Christ was spilled with the intention of saving those whom GOD Foreknew could never be saved. WE cannot believe that the precious blood of Christ was pointlessly shed for those that were already damned and in hell when (as THEY would have US believe) Christ died to save them!

PART III: THE FALSE ACCUSATION​

THEY will often make the accusation of US:

Calvinism limits the atonement of Christ because WE say Christ did not die to bring Sanctification to all men.

This accusation is false, it is THEY that limit the atonement. WE do not.

THEY say Christ died for all men, but that death did not secure the salvation of all men. (Even THEY are not UNIVERSALISTS arguing that there is no hell). THEY teach that Christ did not UNCONDITIONALLY secure the salvation of any man in particular. They teach “Christ died so that any man may be saved if …” - then come the conditions for salvation. Above and beyond this, THEY typically believe that a man can fall from Grace even after they have been justified. So then … who is it that really limits the death of Christ? THEM! THEY say that the death of Christ did not irresistibly secure the death of anybody, but accuse US of limiting the death of Christ.

WE say that Jesus Christ died to, with complete certainty, secure the salvation of “a multitude that no man can number” [Revelation 7:9]. WE say that through Christ’s death this multitude of individuals not only MAY be saved, but MUST be saved, and WILL be saved … there is no possibility of any outcome other than their being saved!

So who really has a limited view of Christ’s death: US or THEM?

Charles Spurgeon presented this issue with a terrific analogy. THEY (Arminians / Free Will / General Atonement) is like a great wide bridge that spans only half way across a river: it does not secure salvation for anybody, but has room for everybody. WE (Calvinist / Reformed / Particular Atonement) is like a narrow bridge that spans all the way across the river: it secures salvation for all who cross it and none others.

Now, I had rather put my foot upon a bridge as narrow as Hungerford, which went all the way across, than on a bridge that was as wide as the world, if it did not go all the way across the stream.“ - C.H. Spurgeon

Me, too.

PART IV: THE VERSE​

Those that know me, know that I like a scripture verse to support what I say. Recently I have observed that posting many verses just leads to many bunny trails. Therefore I offer just one verse (from two places):
  • Matthew 20:28 [NKJV] "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
  • Mark 10:45 [NKJV] "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

John 3:16-18 which is about God's universal saving love for the entire human race, is without a doubt very much against the so called "Reformed" teaching of a "Limited Death" of Jesus Christ. It is also clear in this passage, that all sinners have the God-given ability to choose or reject (FREE WILL) the Salvation that is in Jesus Christ. This passage destroys the TULI in TULIP!
 

Scott Downey

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John 3:16-18 which is about God's universal saving love for the entire human race, is without a doubt very much against the so called "Reformed" teaching of a "Limited Death" of Jesus Christ. It is also clear in this passage, that all sinners have the God-given ability to choose or reject (FREE WILL) the Salvation that is in Jesus Christ. This passage destroys the TULI in TULIP!
They will not choose God though because they can not do that. They are like mental cases in a psyche ward, blinded to their awful state of existence. Believing in Christ to them is a crazier idea than their current state of believing the lie of Satan in the world, so they mock it. This world is their experience as they are carnally minded people, not spiritually minded. People must be born again first or they will not believe in Christ, as the spiritually dead can not see or understand or percieve the kingdom of God in Christ.

SEEING here is not entering.
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born [a]again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

And 2 Corinthians 4 expands on this spiritual blindness more.

Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor [a]handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
 

Scott Downey

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Since the unbelieving are blinded and can not believe, God has to do a work of His grace on them. He does lift this spiritual blindness by making them first born of God, their spirits can then receive the things of God, they are become teachable, God has opened their heart to the gospel.

This is why Christ says God must grant that a person comes to Christ, or they will not be enabled to do so.


The people who say all that is necessary is an exercise of their free will to believe in Christ, think that sick people who cant do something, don't as they just don't have the will to do so. What a cruel judgment they pronounce.

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Nothing Jesus says in the above about the will of a man causing his unbelief.