LET'S SEE IF JESUS WAS TALKING ABOUT THE RAPTURE OR HIS SECOND COMING WHEN HE SAID, "NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY NOR THE HOUR"

[David in NJ]

See this post.
And this one.
Then consider this:

The elect

Matthew 24:9-14 talks about the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus (the elect) and the fact that the gospel of the Kingdom must first be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations.

Matthew 24:15-22 tells the disciples that when they therefore see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place, they should flee Judea, because this will be a time of great tribulation (Matthew 24:21), but the days will be shortened for the elect's sake.

Matthew 24:23-24 warns that false Christs and false prophets will appear showing great signs and wonders, so much so that if possible, they would deceive even the elect. This is the second time the appearance of false prophets is mentioned. The first time is in Matthew 24:11.

Matthew 24:29-31 tells us of Christ sending His angels to gather His elect immediately after the tribulation of those days.

The entire passage from Matthew 24:9 through verse 31 is joined together into one description of one period of tribulation (the great tribulation) by the words "and", "therefore", "for" etc:

9 Then [tote: at the time of (the end)] they will deliver you up to tribulation [thlipsis] and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake.
10 And [kai] then [tote] many will be offended (skandalizo: stumble and fall away), and will betray one another, and will hate one another.
11 And [kai] many false prophets will rise and deceive many.
12 And [kai] because lawlessness shall abound, the love of many will become cold.
13 But [de] he who endures to the end, the same shall be kept safe.
14 And [kai] this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And [kai] then [tote] the end shall come.
15 Therefore [oun] when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand).
16 Then [tote] let those in Judea flee into the mountains.
17 Let him on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house;
18 nor let him in the field turn back to take his clothes.
19 And [kai] woe to those who are with child, and to those who give suck in those days!
20 But [de] pray that your flight is not in the winter, nor on the sabbath day;
21 for [gar] then shall be great tribulation [megas thlipsis], such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be.
22 And [kai] unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened.

.. it continues like this all the way through the passage. Only those who choose to be intellectually dishonest with themselves will slice this passage up into various parts, and only those who choose to be intellectually dishonest with themselves will call God's wrath which is going to come upon the world "the great tribulation".

The obvious, unambiguous implication by the grammar in Matthew 24:9-31 is that the elect are indeed present in the world from the beginning to the end of this period of (great) tribulation. Therefore it's no wonder that a multitude of all nations, tribes and tongues who came out from great tribulation are seen in Revelation 7:13-14 - the third and last time in the New Testament that the thlipsis (tribulation) is described as megas (great) tribulation.

The abomination of desolation in the holy place is not a second reference to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem (which occurred in 70 A.D). The holy place is where the Spirit of God dwells.​

They "came out" from the being in the very midst of the Great Tribulation.

I have seen people change the word from 'out' to 'up' in an attempt to claim a pre-trib rapture.

 

[The Light]

.. it continues like this all the way through the passage. Only those who choose to be intellectually dishonest with themselves will slice this passage up into various parts, and only those who choose to be intellectually dishonest with themselves will call God's wrath which is going to come upon the world "the great tribulation".​

This part of your logic and understanding is good. The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

The obvious, unambiguous implication by the grammar in Matthew 24:9-31 is that the elect are indeed present in the world from the beginning to the end of this period of (great) tribulation. Therefore it's no wonder that a multitude of all nations, tribes and tongues who came out from great tribulation are seen in Revelation 7:13-14 - the third and last time in the New Testament that the thlipsis (tribulation) is described as megas (great) tribulation.

​

This is where your understanding goes off the tracks.

The coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the gathering from HEAVEN and EARTH.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Church is already in heaven before the seals are opened. It is the Church that is gathered from heaven at the gathering from heaven and earth. Here are those that are gathered out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Who is gathered from the earth? It is the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman, Israel, who keep the commandments of God and now have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Their blindness is removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The final week, the 70th week of Daniel, is about the people of Daniel.
Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The seventh week of Daniel is when God turns His attention to the people of Daniel and has nothing to do with the Gentile Church as they are already in heaven before the seals are opened. There will be more Gentiles harvested, no doubt as there is many that will not escape the hour of testing as they are not watching and ready when the bridegroom comes.

 

[The Light]

They "came out" from the being in the very midst of the Great Tribulation.

I have seen people change the word from 'out' to 'up' in an attempt to claim a pre-trib rapture.

No need to change anything. The coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven as they are already in heaven before the seals are opened.

 

[ewq1938]

Do you see any need at all for a rapture?

Of course there is a need. Jesus wants to return with his saints but the saints alive on the Earth are scattered all over the Earth so a rapture is needed to bring them all from where ever each person is to one central location in the clouds so they can as a group follow Christ downward to the Earth

 

[VCO]

That isn't part of NT end times prophecy but 7 final trumpets are, and the 7th is the last one and is when Jesus returns, the dead rise and the rapture happens.

The Feast of Trumpets, certainly is. And you never studied the Seven Feast of Israel, and End Time Prophecy, Mirror the Seven Feasts of Israel. And the Seventh Trumpet in Revelation has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the Seventh Trump Call, in the Feast.

It is called:

2 Timothy 2:15 (NKJV)
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[David in NJ]

No need to change anything. The coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven as they are already in heaven before the seals are opened.

Revelation is a set of Truth that repeats Itself.

ABSOLUTELY the 6th Seal is His Coming and it will be retold again later on in Revelation leading up to chapter 19.

The Saints who you see in Revelation are those of 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 4:13-14 = "the dead in Christ"

This Irrefutable Truth is Validated in the 5th Seal Revelation 6:9-11

And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

ONLY when the 5th Seal is completed will the 6th Seal be actuated.

This Irrefutable Truth is Validated 'again' in Rev 14:9-13

Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

 

[Zao is life]

Who is gathered from the earth? It is the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman, Israel, who keep the commandments of God and now have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Their blindness is removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

The Jews and Benjamin are two of the tribes. Paul was a Benjamite. Where are the other 10?

They ceased being a nation before God, i.e they ceased being Israel:

For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within sixty-five years Ephraim shall be broken so that it shall not be a people. Isiah 7:8

Then the LORD said: "Name him 'Not My People' (Lo-Ammi), because you are not my people and I am not your God." Hosea 1:9

.. because I will no longer have pity on the nation of Israel (Ephraim). For I will certainly not forgive their guilt. But I will have pity on the nation of Judah. I will deliver them by the LORD their God; I will not deliver them by the warrior's bow, by sword, by military victory, by chariot horses, or by chariots." Hosea 1:6-7.

However, in the future the number of the people of Israel will be like the sand of the sea which can be neither measured nor numbered. Although it was said to them, "You are not my people," it will be said to them, "You are children of the living God!" Hosea 1:10

The 10 tribes a.k.a Ephraim a.k.a the house of Israel were exiled in 725 B.C and scattered among the nations. They have never returned, their descendants having intermarried with Gentiles, so that it's impossible to find the original 10 tribes anymore.

And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory -
even us, whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As he also says in Hosea:
"I will call those who were not my people, 'My people,' and I will call her who was unloved, 'My beloved.'" "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'" Romans 9:23-26.

And Isaiah cries out on behalf of Israel, "Though the number of the children of Israel are as the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27.

Sorry to smash your obsession with people who do not believe in Jesus (in your case, with those among the Jews who do not believe in Jesus), but 10 of those tribes are Gentiles who believe in Jesus, as God told Abraham, and as Jacob (Israel) told Joseph:

"As for me, this is my covenant with you (Abraham): You will be the father of a multitude of nations (Hebrew: goy). No longer will your name be Abram. Instead, your name will be Abraham because I will make you the father of a multitude of nations (Hebrew: goy)." Genesis 17:4

When Joseph saw that his father placed his right hand on Ephraim's head, it displeased him. So he took his father's hand to move it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head.
Joseph said to his father, "Not so, my father, for this is the firstborn. Put your right hand on his head." But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know. He too will become a nation and he too will become great. In spite of this, his younger brother (Ephraim) will be even greater and his descendants will become a multitude of nations (Hebrew: melo' goy: the fullness of the Gentiles)." Genesis 48:17-19.

The 12 tribes in the Revelation symbolize all those who are saved in Christ. That's why immediately afterward John saw a multitude of peoples, nations, tribes and tongues. The fullness of the Gentiles = Ephraim = a multitude of nations = the seed of Abraham, our father.

 

[David in NJ]

The Jews and Benjamin are two of the tribes. Paul was a Benjamite. Where are the other 10?

They ceased being a nation before God, i.e they ceased being Israel:

For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within sixty-five years Ephraim shall be broken so that it shall not be a people. Isiah 7:8

Then the LORD said: "Name him 'Not My People' (Lo-Ammi), because you are not my people and I am not your God." Hosea 1:9

.. because I will no longer have pity on the nation of Israel (Ephraim). For I will certainly not forgive their guilt. But I will have pity on the nation of Judah. I will deliver them by the LORD their God; I will not deliver them by the warrior's bow, by sword, by military victory, by chariot horses, or by chariots." Hosea 1:6-7.

However, in the future the number of the people of Israel will be like the sand of the sea which can be neither measured nor numbered. Although it was said to them, "You are not my people," it will be said to them, "You are children of the living God!" Hosea 1:10

The 10 tribes a.k.a Ephraim a.k.a the house of Israel were exiled in 725 B.C and scattered among the nations. They have never returned, their descendants having intermarried with Gentiles, so that it's impossible to find the original 10 tribes anymore.

And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory -
even us, whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As he also says in Hosea:

"I will call those who were not my people, 'My people,' and I will call her who was unloved, 'My beloved.'" "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'" Romans 9:23-26.

And Isaiah cries out on behalf of Israel, "Though the number of the children of Israel are as the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27.

Sorry to smash your obsession with people who do not believe in Jesus (in your case, with those among the Jews who do not believe in Jesus), but 10 of those tribes are Gentiles who believe in Jesus, as God told Abraham, and as Jacob (Israel) told Joseph:

"As for me, this is my covenant with you (Abraham): You will be the father of a multitude of nations (Hebrew: goy). No longer will your name be Abram. Instead, your name will be Abraham because I will make you the father of a multitude of nations (Hebrew: goy)." Genesis 17:4

When Joseph saw that his father placed his right hand on Ephraim's head, it displeased him. So he took his father's hand to move it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head.
Joseph said to his father, "Not so, my father, for this is the firstborn. Put your right hand on his head." But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know. He too will become a nation and he too will become great. In spite of this, his younger brother (Ephraim) will be even greater and his descendants will become a multitude of nations (Hebrew: melo' goy: the fullness of the Gentiles)." Genesis 48:17-19.

The 12 tribes in the Revelation symbolize all those who are saved in Christ. That's why immediately afterward John saw a multitude of peoples, nations, tribes and tongues. The fullness of the Gentiles = Ephraim - a multitude of nations = the seed of Abraham, our father.

You said: "The 12 tribes in the Revelation symbolize all those who are saved in Christ. That's why immediately afterward John saw a multitude of peoples, nations, tribes and tongues."

i know this to be 100% TRUTH from the Word.

Now i ask you, how would you validate this Truth?

You already have in part - but there is a Rock Solid Verification, which i am sure you know of and that most miss, even though it is right in front of us in the Gospel.

 

[Zao is life]

You said: "The 12 tribes in the Revelation symbolize all those who are saved in Christ. That's why immediately afterward John saw a multitude of peoples, nations, tribes and tongues."

i know this to be 100% TRUTH from the Word.

Now i ask you, how would you validate this Truth?

Not sure what you mean by validating it. Jesus validated it when He told those who claimed Abraham was their father that they were of their father the devil. John the Baptist told them not to think to say they are Abraham's children because God is able to raise up children to Abraham from the stones. Paul said that those who believe God like Abraham did, are the seed of Abraham. In Romans 11 he said that IF the part of Israel and the physical seed that had been broken off through unbelief repent of their unbelief, they would be grafted back in again.

Sorry if I'm being a bit slow brother but the only other thing I can think you mean by validate is that those who are in Christ are Israel and we all should be showing it by the fruit of the Spirit (and obedience to the law and commandments does not produce the fruit of the Spirit that fulfills the law and commandments), but those who teach obedience to commandments and law read Jesus' words in John 15 as:

"As a branch cannot [obey the commandments] of itself unless it dwells in the vine, so neither can you unless you dwell in Me. I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who dwells in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much [obedience to commandments]; for without Me you can do nothing." John 15 vs 4-5.

 

[David in NJ]

Not sure what you mean by validating it. Jesus validated it when He told those who claimed Abraham was their father that they were of their father the devil. John the Baptist told them not to think to say they are Abraham's children because God is able to raise up children to Abraham from the stones. Paul said that those who believe God like Abraham did, are the seed of Abraham. In Romans 11 he said that IF the part of Israel and the physical seed that had been broken off through unbelief repent of their unbelief, they would be grafted back in again.

Sorry if I'm being a bit slow brother but the only other thing I can think you mean by validate is that those who are in Christ are Israel and we all should be showing it by the fruit of the Spirit (and obedience to the law and commandments does not produce the fruit of the Spirit that fulfills the law and commandments), but those who teach obedience to commandments and law read Jesus' words in John 15 as:

"As a branch cannot [obey the commandments] of itself unless it dwells in the vine, so neither can you unless you dwell in Me. I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who dwells in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much [obedience to commandments]; for without Me you can do nothing." John 15 vs 4-5.

Some of the most profound Truth in Scripture is also the most simple and overlooked.

The Gospel is the Rock Solid Verification (which was established beforehand by God beginning in Genesis which you know).

Gospel = John 1:10-13
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become sons of God, to those who believe in His name:
who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Gospel John 3:1-8
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Overlooked TRUTH = There is ONLY One Family that a person, no matter what there origin, is Born-Again into = MESSIAH the ISRAEL of GOD.

Continued.....

 

[David in NJ]

continued Verification from Post #170

Ephesians 2

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in One Body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a (One) Holy Temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

 

[Zao is life]

There is a Rock Solid Verification, which i am sure you know of and that most miss, even though it is right in front of us in the Gospel.

Some of the most profound Truth in Scripture is also the most simple and overlooked.

The Gospel is the Rock Solid Verification (which was established beforehand by God beginning in Genesis which you know).

Gospel = John 1:10-13
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become sons of God, to those who believe in His name:
who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Gospel John 3:1-8
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Overlooked TRUTH = There is ONLY One Family that a person, no matter what there origin, is Born-Again into = MESSIAH the ISRAEL of GOD.

Wonderful. I fully agree. I was about to post: The New Covenant in Christ's blood is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31) who believe in Him. Gentiles who believe in Jesus are also Israel, with Jews who believe in Jesus. There is no other Israel.

And this confirms again what you said above:

"There is one body and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in you all." Ephesians 4:4-6

"For by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free, even all were made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many." 1 Corinthians 12:13-14

"Through Him (Jesus) we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,
and are built upon the foundation of the apostles (plural) and prophets (plural), Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom every building having been fitly framed together, grows into a holy sanctuary in the Lord; in whom you also are built together for a dwelling place of God through the Spirit." Ephesians 2:18-22.

It has nothing to do with the blood of Abraham and everything to do with the blood of Jesus through the faith of Abraham giving us all access.

 

[David in NJ]

The New Covenant was promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31).


Wonderful. I fully agree. I was about to post: The New Covenant in Christ's blood is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31) who believe in Him. Gentiles who believe in Jesus are also Israel, with Jews who believe in Jesus. There is no other Israel.

And this confirms again what you said above:

"There is one body and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in you all." Ephesians 4:4-6

"For by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free, even all were made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many." 1 Corinthians 12:13-14

"Through Him (Jesus) we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,
and are built upon the foundation of the apostles (plural) and prophets (plural), Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom every building having been fitly framed together, grows into a holy sanctuary in the Lord; in whom you also are built together for a dwelling place of God through the Spirit." Ephesians 2:18-22.

It has nothing to do with the blood of Abraham and everything to do with the blood of Jesus and the faith of Abraham.

God's Truth is always Verifed in the mouth of two or three Holy Spirit filled Witnesses.

God (Elohim) Himself being the First Witness, the Continuing Witness and the Last Witness.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 1:8

 

[The Light]

Sorry to smash your obsession with people who do not believe in Jesus (in your case, with those among the Jews who do not believe in Jesus), but 10 of those tribes are Gentiles who believe in Jesus, as God told Abraham, and as Jacob (Israel) told Joseph:

Ah. No sweat. God will keep His promise to His Chosen despite your incorrect opinions.

The 12 tribes in the Revelation symbolize all those who are saved in Christ. That's why immediately afterward John saw a multitude of peoples, nations, tribes and tongues. The fullness of the Gentiles = Ephraim = a multitude of nations = the seed of Abraham, our father.

*yawn*

Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

 

[The Light]

God's Truth is always Verifed in the mouth of two or three Holy Spirit filled Witnesses.

God (Elohim) Himself being the First Witness, the Continuing Witness and the Last Witness.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 1:8

You better get it together brother. The time draws very, very short. And two witnesses that don't understand the Word can't change the truth.

 

[David in NJ]

You better get it together brother. The time draws very, very short. And two witnesses that don't understand the Word can't change the truth.

We are waiting for you to bring forth the Scripture passage that bears witness to 'pre-trib' rapture.

Best place to start would be Genesis.

What occurred in Genesis leading up to the flood - pre-trib, mid-trib or post trib?

 

[David in NJ]

You better get it together brother. The time draws very, very short. And two witnesses that don't understand the Word can't change the truth.

'pre-trib' rapture theory must add to God's words and subtract from God's words in order for it to stand.

pre-trib cannot stand on any Scripture, for none support it.........

 

[David in NJ]

Ah. No sweat. God will keep His promise to His Chosen despite your incorrect opinions.


*yawn*

Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Now is the Time to fill up with have Holy Spirit Anointing Oil in your Lamp.

#1. When do the Jews of the flesh corporately receive their Messiah?

 

[The Light]

Of course there is a need. Jesus wants to return with his saints but the saints alive on the Earth are scattered all over the Earth so a rapture is needed to bring them all from where ever each person is to one central location in the clouds so they can as a group follow Christ downward to the Earth

That's great except for the fact that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord at the 7th trumpet. The kingdom is already set up on earth.

 

[The Light]

Now is the Time to fill up with have Holy Spirit Anointing Oil in your Lamp.

#1. When do the Jews of the flesh corporately receive their Messiah?

You should know this. There is a rapture at the 6th seal for the seed of the woman and the nation of Israel, those that fled as instructed remain on earth in a place of protection. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath.