LET'S SEE IF JESUS WAS TALKING ABOUT THE RAPTURE OR HIS SECOND COMING WHEN HE SAID, "NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY NOR THE HOUR"

[Truth7t7]

The obvious, unambiguous implication by the grammar in Matthew 24:9-31 is that the elect are indeed present in the world from the beginning to the end of this period of (great) tribulation.

Your suggestion that (The Great Tribulation) is 2,000 years long and continuing is "Error"

Matthew 24:15 Daniel's future AOD will cause/start the great tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21, Jesus returns immediately after this future great tribulation Matthew 24:29-30

Daniel's AOD, The Great Tribulation, And the Lord's second coming are future events unfulfilled

(The Great Tribulation) is a future specific tribulation the world has never seen, greater than the likes of World War II

"Future" No, Nor Ever Shall Be

Matthew 24:21KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[The Light]

Rev didn't have to be written for God to show Paul something He would later show to John.

And yet no explanation from Paul as to what the last trump is. There was no confusion as all Jews at that time were aware of what the last trump is.

The last trumpet is the last endtimes, heavenly trumpet. There are 7 trumpets, and the 7th is the last one. There isn't an 8th trump like many are inventing.

That's a weak straw man argument that you have there. No one is saying there is an 8th trump but you. The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. It's a fact and no mystery to the Jews.

The second coming, resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture of the living saints is at the 7th trump, when the great Tribulation has ended.

Sorry but part of the Jews cannot see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The 70th week will not begin until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

 

[David in NJ]

Not a problem.
What verse are you saying proves that there cannot be a rapture until His coming and resurrection? I am unaware of such a verse.

And what coming are you talking about.

The Word says He comes at the end of the tribulation, which is the 6th seal, when He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

The Word also says He comes at the end of wrath to set up His kingdom on earth. That happens at the end of the trumpets or vials as they occur in the same timeframe.

The Word also says He comes for the 144,000 of the twelve tribes and they are the first fruits, which proves there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes.

The Word also says He comes for the dead in Christ, first.

The Word says that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel and that they cannot see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Which leads us to the rapture of the Church which is getting ready to occur.

How is it that you are unable to understand these things? The bridegroom is literally at the door and you are totally unaware. The time is very, very, very short. You better wise up NOW. You don't want to be hanging around for what is getting ready to happen.

The Scriptures only speak of One Return of the LORD Jesus Christ and is declared as "His Coming".

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words.

 

[David in NJ]

The 7th trump of Revelation is the same last trump Paul speaks of because that's when the dead in Christ are raised along with his second coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here we have the second coming associated with a trumpet, and the dead in Christ rising, and the rapture.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


And here we have a trumpet called the last trump, and the dead in Christ being raised. This clearly is at the second coming as the other verse makes clear. The dead in Christ rise and Christ returns. So all we have to do is find out which end times trumpet Christ returns in:

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Here we have the end of the Tribulation, and the sounding of the last of the 7 trumps. Though not explicitly mentioned here, I think the language does highly imply Christ's second coming is at this time. The second coming is directly tied to the time for wrath:

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


We see this wrath in greater detail here:


Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

So, the "last trump" is the same as the last of the 7 trumpets of Revelation and it is when Christ returns, the dead in Christ rise and the rapture all take place.

Last is last and 7th and no more

 

[The Light]

The 7th trump of Revelation is the same last trump Paul speaks of because that's when the dead in Christ are raised along with his second coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The trump of God is the voice of God and has nothing to do with the last trump.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here we have the second coming associated with a trumpet, and the dead in Christ rising, and the rapture.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

No, here you have a contradiction. You have one coming at the trump of God and one coming at the last trump. You have one coming where the dead in Christ are raised first and another coming where the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye. You have one coming where it is like the days of Noah and Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood and you have one coming where it is like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction comes.

And here we have a trumpet called the last trump, and the dead in Christ being raised. This clearly is at the second coming as the other verse makes clear. The dead in Christ rise and Christ returns. So all we have to do is find out which end times trumpet Christ returns in:

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Here we have the end of the Tribulation, and the sounding of the last of the 7 trumps. Though not explicitly mentioned here, I think the language does highly imply Christ's second coming is at this time. The second coming is directly tied to the time for wrath:

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

And yet, you are unable to grasp the FACT that you are comparing the 6th seal coming of Jesus at the end of the tribulation to 7th trumpet coming where Jesus sets up His kingdom at the end of the wrath of God.

Simply put, tribulation comes against the saints and is over before the wrath of God that comes on the unbelievers.
Wrath cannot occur until the 7th seal is opened so logically the events of the 6th seal cannot equal the events of the 7th seal. You logic is flawed.

We see this wrath in greater detail here:


Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

So, the "last trump" is the same as the last of the 7 trumpets of Revelation and it is when Christ returns, the dead in Christ rise and the rapture all take place.

The tribulation is over at the sixth seal as marked by the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars. The tribulation is against the people of God. After the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, the wrath of God begins. At the end of the wrath of God Jesus returns to set up His kingdom and the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Your logic is flawed.

 

[The Light]

The Scriptures only speak of One Return of the LORD Jesus Christ and is declared as "His Coming".

What do you do with all the other comings of Jesus that I have pointed out. Do you just skip all that and pretend they are not there?
Here is Jesus coming to earth for the 144,000 first fruits that are redeemed from the earth and are before the throne in heaven. Do we just ignore this coming and claim He only comes once.

Rev 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Why does the Word say.....
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Why doesn't the Word just say and we who are ALIVE will be caught up. The Word says we who are alive AND REMAIN.

The dead in Christ rise first. We will not proceed them. Jesus will bring the dead in Christ with Him when He returns for the ALIVE that REMAIN.

The one and only coming THAT YOU SEE, has so many holes in it that I'm wondering what some of you are reading. SOME SEE, SOME DON'T. It's as simple as that.

 

[David in NJ]

What do you do with all the other coming of Jesus that I have pointed out. Do you just skip all that and pretend it's not there?
Here is Jesus coming to earth for the 144,000 first fruits that are redeemed from the earth and are before the throne in heaven. Do we just ignore this coming and claim He only comes once.

Rev 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


Why does the Word say.....
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Why doesn't the Word just say and we who are ALIVE will be caught up. The Word says we who are alive AND REMAIN.

The dead in Christ rise first. We will not proceed them. Jesus will bring the dead in Christ with Him when He returns for the ALIVE that REMAIN.

The one and only coming THAT YOU SEE, has so many holes in it that I'm wondering what some of you are reading. SOME SEE, SOME DON'T. It's as simple as that.

There does not exist in Scripture more then one Second Coming of Christ.

Hebrews 9:28 - so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.
To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

pre-trib rapture is a lie and therefore it must, by it's nature, create more lies to substantiate it

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. - Proverbs 30:5-6

 

[The Light]

There does not exist in Scripture more then one Second Coming of Christ.

Hebrews 9:28 - so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.
To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

pre-trib rapture is a lie and therefore it must, by it's nature, create more lies to substantiate it

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. - Proverbs 30:5-6

And yet you were unable to address the FACTS that I presented that PROVE what you are saying is incorrect.

Hebrews 9:28 - so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.
To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

When the blind that cannot see, claim something is a lie, who would the wise listen to? The blind? Or the truth of what is written in the Word of God.

It only makes sense. The wise have lamp oil and can see. The foolish are in the dark and cannot see. The time for you acquire lamp oil is closing fast. If you were wise, you would heed the words of the Master.

 

[Zao is life]

Your suggestion that (The Great Tribulation) is 2,000 years long and continuing is "Error"

Matthew 24:15 Daniel's future AOD will cause/start the great tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21, Jesus returns immediately after this future great tribulation Matthew 24:29-30

Daniel's AOD, The Great Tribulation, And the Lord's second coming are future events unfulfilled

(The Great Tribulation) is a future specific tribulation the world has never seen, greater than the likes of World War II

"Future" No, Nor Ever Shall Be

Matthew 24:21KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Your suggestion that I suggested that the great tribulation is 2,000 years long and continuing is "Error" .

I agree with the rest of what you said, though we might disagree on what will (future tense) constitute the AoD, when it will ocur, and what constitutes the great tribulation.

 

[Marty fox]

The "last trump" is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. Most Jews know this which is why no one asked Paul what he was talking about as John had not written the Revelation yet.

Paul wasn’t writing to the Jews in Corinthians

 

[David in NJ]

And yet you were unable to address the FACTS that I presented that PROVE what you are saying is incorrect.

Hebrews 9:28 - so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.
To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

When the blind that cannot see, claim something is a lie, who would the wise listen to? The blind? Or the truth of what is written in the Word of God.

It only makes sense. The wise have lamp oil and can see. The foolish are in the dark and cannot see. The time for you acquire lamp oil is closing fast. If you were wise, you would heed the words of the Master.

All you presented was adding your own words upon God's words in order to prop up your cause.

Truth is very simple and easily received when your heart seeks Truth.

1 Thess 4:13-18 - There are only two groups of Saints

1st Group = the dead in Christ, whom Jesus brings with Him = these are the Saints in Heaven right now and continuing

2nd Group = the "alive" meaning physically alive on earth = we who remain = on earth unto His Second Coming

We call this simple English language structure written for children to understand.

 

[Zao is life]

All you presented was adding your own words upon God's words in order to prop up your cause.

Truth is very simple and easily received when your heart seeks Truth.

1 Thess 4:13-18 - There are only two groups of Saints

1st Group = the dead in Christ, whom Jesus brings with Him = these are the Saints in Heaven right now and continuing

2nd Group = the "alive" meaning physically alive on earth = we who remain = on earth unto His Second Coming

We call this simple English language structure written for children to understand.

I agree. It's so easy to understand when we do a simple search on the words persecution, tribulation, affliction and trouble in the New Testament.

WRATH

God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7).

JUDGMENT

God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger, but it’s not always a final judgement nor is it always a universal judgment:

A final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city at the time Jerusalem was destroyed by the armies of Babylon, but a final judgement did come upon Babylon (Jeremiah 50:13) when the wrath of God came upon the city a few decades later.

Hundreds of years later, Jesus prophesied about another judgement that was to come upon the people of Jerusalem, and He mentions this judgement as coming about as a result of God’s wrath:

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (ἀνάγκη anánkē) in the land and wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) upon this people." (Luke 21:23).

Notice the above is not called tribulation in the above verse, but wrath.

UNIVERSAL JUDGMENT

The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being universally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved.

The last time we read about humanity being universally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

1 Thessalonians 5:9
"For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

Romans 5:8-10
"But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

TRIBULATION AND GREAT TRIBULATION

Here are ALL New Testament references to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.
2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

There are no other New Testament mentions of tribulation as the experience of those who are not Christians.

TRIBULATION AND PERSECUTION EXPERIENCED BY CHRISTIANS

Persecution Of Jesus: John 5:16

Of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Of the woman who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13

Tribulation Of apostles or Christians:

Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14.

Great Tribulation (Greek: mégas thlîpsis)

Mentioned only three times in the New Testament:

Great tribulation mentioned as the experience of Christians in Revelation 2:22 & Revelation 7:14:

Revelation 7:13-14 "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Revelation 2:21 "Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds."

Great tribulation is first mentioned by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse: Matthew 24:21 (parallel Mark 13:19) *

Matthew 24:21-22 (Parallel: Mark 13:19-20):

"for then shall be mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened." (Also see Matthew 24:9).

* Luke 21:23 uses the words great distress and wrath to describe what was to come upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem (not the word tribulation):

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress [anánkē] in the land and wrath [orgḗ] on this people."

In Luke 21:20-24 Luke is writing about what Jesus said regarding the wrath of God that the inhabitants of Jerusalem would face when armies gather against the city and destroy the city, but the tribulation or persecution of the disciples of Jesus in the days leading up to the coming of the Son of man is mentioned in Luke 21:12-19; Matthew 24:9-10; and Mark 13:9-13; and their redemption (ending their tribulation), is mentioned in Luke 21:25-36; Matthew 24:29-51; and Mark 13:24-37.

The elect

Matthew 24:9-14 talks about the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus (the elect) and the fact that the gospel of the Kingdom must first be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations.

Matthew 24:15-22 tells the disciples that when they therefore see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place, they should flee Judea, because this will be a time of great tribulation (Matthew 24:21), but the days will be shortened for THE ELECT'S sake.

Matthew 24:23-24 warns that false Christs and false prophets will appear showing great signs and wonders, so much so that if possible, they would deceive even THE ELECT. This is the second time the appearance of false prophets is mentioned. The first time is in Matthew 24:11.

Matthew 24:29-31 tells us of Christ sending His angels to gather HIS ELECT immediately after the tribulation of those days.

The entire New Testament hardly suggests a pre-tribulation rapture. Calling the wrath of God "the great tribulation" is a complete and utter misnomer to begin with.

 

[Zao is life]

All you presented was adding your own words upon God's words in order to prop up your cause.

Truth is very simple and easily received when your heart seeks Truth.

1 Thess 4:13-18 - There are only two groups of Saints

1st Group = the dead in Christ, whom Jesus brings with Him = these are the Saints in Heaven right now and continuing

2nd Group = the "alive" meaning physically alive on earth = we who remain = on earth unto His Second Coming

We call this simple English language structure written for children to understand.

(Continued from previous post)

GUARDING THE WORD OF GOD, AND BEING GUARDED BY GOD / KEPT FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION

The Greek word tēréō means to guard (from loss or injury), by keeping the eye upon:

John 17:16: "I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave to Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have kept (tēréō) Your word."

John 17:11-15: "And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep (tēréō) them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.
While I was with them in the world, I kept (tēréō) them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept (tēréō), and none of them is lost, except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
And now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world that they might have My joy fulfilled in them.
I have given them Your Word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep (tēréō) them from the evil."

Revelation 3:10: "Because you have kept (tēréō) the word of My patience, I also will keep (tēréō) you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world, to try those who dwell upon the earth."

"I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep (tēréō) them from the evil." (John 17:15).

Matthew 6:13: "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil."

Revelation 3:10 does not speak about being "raptured" out of the world. Here is the biblical context of the above verse:

Luke 21:17-19: "And you shall be hated by all for My name's sake. But there shall not a hair of your head perish. By your patience [G5281 ὑπομονή hypomonḗ] you will gain your souls."

Revelation 2:10: "Do not at all fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the Devil will cast some of you into prison, so that you may be tried. And you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life."

There is not one verse in the New Testament where tēréō does not mean to observe, to guard, to keep.

The hour of temptation is also called the hour of trial:

Revelation 17:12: "And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast."

Revelation 17:16: "and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire."

Revelation 18:10: ".. standing afar off for fear of her torment, saying, Woe! Woe to the great city, Babylon, that strong city! For in one hour your judgment came."

The Day of wrath:

Luke 21:34-36: "And take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts are weighed down with headaches and drinking and anxieties of this life; and that day should suddenly come on you; for it shall come as a snare on all those sitting on the face of the whole earth. Watch therefore, praying in every season that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things which shall occur, and to stand before the Son of man."

Those who are in Christ will be saved from wrath, not from tribulation.

 

[ewq1938]

The trump of God is the voice of God

That is not scriptural.

and has nothing to do with the last trump.

It is the last trump.

No, here you have a contradiction. You have one coming at the trump of God and one coming at the last trump. You have one coming where the dead in Christ are raised first and another coming where the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye.

There is one coming, not two and the dead are resurrected before the living are changed and raptured.

You have one coming where it is like the days of Noah and Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood and you have one coming where it is like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction comes.


And yet, you are unable to grasp the FACT that you are comparing the 6th seal coming of Jesus at the end of the tribulation to 7th trumpet coming where Jesus sets up His kingdom at the end of the wrath of God.

This si also not scriptural. Rev 11 makes clear the wrath of God starts at the 7th trump not ends there.

Simply put, tribulation comes against the saints and is over before the wrath of God that comes on the unbelievers.
Wrath cannot occur until the 7th seal is opened so logically the events of the 6th seal cannot equal the events of the 7th seal. You logic is flawed.

You are confused. No one thinks the events of the 6th and 7th seals are the same. This si known as a Strawman fallacy.

The tribulation is over at the sixth seal as marked by the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars.

The 6th seal only tells us what happens at the 7th trump.

The tribulation is against the people of God. After the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, the wrath of God begins.

That is not when Christ returns. It only describes the return just like the return was described in the OD. Describing is not the same as happening.

At the end of the wrath of God Jesus returns to set up His kingdom and the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

Which is the 7th trump. You even use the same wording.

 

[ewq1938]

And yet no explanation from Paul as to what the last trump is. There was no confusion as all Jews at that time were aware of what the last trump is.

That's a weak straw man argument that you have there. No one is saying there is an 8th trump but you.

Wrong. Anyone that says the 7th trump is not the last one is saying there is an 8th.

The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. It's a fact and no mystery to the Jews.

So? The last trump is Christian prophecy not Judaism prophecy. The 7 trumps are not part of Jewish feasts.

 

[VCO]

Rev didn't have to be written for God to show Paul something He would later show to John.

The last trumpet is the last endtimes, heavenly trumpet. There are 7 trumpets, and the 7th is the last one. There isn't an 8th trump like many are inventing. The second coming, resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture of the living saints is at the 7th trump, when the great Tribulation has ended.

Now you have that totally wrong "THE LAST TRUMP" is the 100th Shofar Trumpet Blast, that happens every year in Judaism, and I can prove.

In Judaism, it has nothing to do with the Trumpet Judgements. THE LAST TRUMP, is what they call the in the Feast of Trumpets, the Last note that gets louder and higher pitched in the Feast of Trumpets, as this note on Shofar trumpet calls. You have got to study the Jewish Feasts, so that you do not make any grievous error like that.

THE TRUMPET BLASTS:

The Tekiah – is a long, single blast. It was straight, plain, smooth, continuous note and it is to symbolize the expression of joy and contentment.

The Shevarim – is three short blasts. A combination of three broken notes to symbolize weeping.

The Truah – Extremely short blasts which are a combination of nine staccato notes in a very quick succession of short trill. This symbolizes trepidation, sorrow and sobbing.

The Tekiah Gedolah – Means “the last trump.” This one symbolizes the hope of redemption. It is a very long, final note.

This is what you hear when one or MORE angels Blow the SHOFAR.

 

[ewq1938]

Now you have that totally wrong "THE LAST TRUMP" is the 100th Shofar Trumpet Blast, that happens every year in Judaism, and I can prove.

That isn't part of NT end times prophecy but 7 final trumpets are, and the 7th is the last one and is when Jesus returns, the dead rise and the rapture happens.

 

[Zao is life]

That isn't part of NT end times prophecy but 7 final trumpets are, and the 7th is the last one and is when Jesus returns, the dead rise and the rapture happens.

Besides that, the walls of Jericho fell down on the 7th day, the 7th time the people marched around the city on that same day, at the sound of the 7th ️trumpet, and when the people gave a great shout.

7th ️trumpet being sounded by the 7th priest on the 7th march around the city on the 7th day,

after the people had marched once around the city for six days when 7 ️trumpets were sounded on each march.

7 times on the 7h day, 7 ️trumpets with each march around the city = 49 trumpets are blown on the 7th day, + 7 for each previous day = Jericho was destroyed at the sound of the 91st trumpet️, not at the sound of the 100th.

The fact of the matter is in the Revelation it's the 7th trumpet.

 

[Zao is life]

LET'S SEE IF JESUS WAS TALKING ABOUT THE RAPTURE OR HIS SECOND COMING WHEN HE SAID, "NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY NOR THE HOUR"

The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Did you notice that verse 29 starts out by Jesus saying, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days."

Jesus is now talking about what events will take place immediately after the tribulation or at the end of the seven-year Tribulation.


THERE IS ONLY ONE QUESTION TO BE ASKED THAT WILL SETTLE THE NO ONE KNOWS DEBATE FOREVER

All will agree that verse 30 comes after verse 29 so that means whatever is said in verse 30 takes place immediately after the Tribulation.

Verse 30 describes the sign of the Son of Man appearing in the heavens.

Q- So here is our big question, Who sees Jesus arriving in the heavens, the world or the Saints?

If it's the entire world that sees Jesus' arrival then It's Jesus's Second Coming but if it's the Saints that see Jesus arrival then it's the Rapture.



OK, LET'S read verse 30 to see if it's the Rapture that no one knows the day or the hour or is it Christ's Second Coming.

V: 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

It's settled, it's the entire world that sees Jesus' arrival so it must be His Second Coming and that's just what He said in verse 29, "immediately after the Tribulation of those days."

So, if verse 30 takes place immediately after the Tribulation of those days then so does verse 31 because everything that Jesus describes after verse 29 He says is taking place after the Tribulation. So, let's read the next event that will take place immediately after the Tribulation of those days.

Oh, look there is a rapture taking place in verse 31.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is where all my post-Tribulation friends say, "See I told you so that the Rapture takes place at the end of the Tribulation."

Let me show you why it is not remotely possible that the Rapture takes place at the end of the seven-year Tribulation.
So what's going on here?
Let's find out.

Q-What was Jesus's disciples original question at the beginning of Matthew 24?

A- “What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” ( Matthew 24:3).

Now let Jesus explain what this rapture is that we read about in verse 31 of Matthew 24 in Matthew 13.

MATTHEW 13
JESUS SPEAKING

37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40 As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. 42 And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.


There is the explanation for Matthew 24:31 rapture given by Jesus.

There is going to be another final separation between the sheep and the goats or the weeds from the wheat at the end of the age or immediately after the tribulation of those days.

Now you know that when Jesus said no one knows the day nor the hour He was referring to His Second Coming not the Rapture.

MATTHEW 24:36 also comes after verse 29 where Jesus started to tell us what events will take place immediately after the Tribulation of those days and look at what verse 36 says.

JESUS SPEAKING
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

CONCLUSION:
Jesus did not say no one can know when the Rapture will take place and that phrase is not even once found in all of Matthew 24.

Saints, it's time to look for when the Rapture will take place.

Join me as I expose the lie of the Devil that no one can know when the Rapture will take place.

I am right now posting messages that clearly show that there are many prophets in the bible that know when the Rapture will take place.

And like I have said many times, is it a mere coincidence that every one of these prophets including Jesus got the exact same timeline for the Rapture? Not one of them gave a different timeline for the Rapture.

So far I have shown that the Prophets Daniel and Paul knew when the Rapture will take place and now I will show you three times Jesus Himself telling us when the Rapture will take place. It's all in the bible.

There is another guy on this forum that has been desperately trying to tell you how close we are to the Tribulation and the Rapture but it would seem that you guys are not listening to him. Just consider what he is saying might be the truth and give him a good listen too.

Eliyahoo

See this post.
And this one.
Then consider this:

The elect

Matthew 24:9-14 talks about the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus (the elect) and the fact that the gospel of the Kingdom must first be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations.

Matthew 24:15-22 tells the disciples that when they therefore see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place, they should flee Judea, because this will be a time of great tribulation (Matthew 24:21), but the days will be shortened for the elect's sake.

Matthew 24:23-24 warns that false Christs and false prophets will appear showing great signs and wonders, so much so that if possible, they would deceive even the elect. This is the second time the appearance of false prophets is mentioned. The first time is in Matthew 24:11.

Matthew 24:29-31 tells us of Christ sending His angels to gather His elect immediately after the tribulation of those days.

The entire passage from Matthew 24:9 through verse 31 is joined together into one description of one period of tribulation (the great tribulation) by the words "and", "therefore", "for" etc:

9 Then [tote: at the time of (the end)] they will deliver you up to tribulation [thlipsis] and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake.
10 And [kai] then [tote] many will be offended (skandalizo: stumble and fall away), and will betray one another, and will hate one another.
11 And [kai] many false prophets will rise and deceive many.
12 And [kai] because lawlessness shall abound, the love of many will become cold.
13 But [de] he who endures to the end, the same shall be kept safe.
14 And [kai] this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And [kai] then [tote] the end shall come.
15 Therefore [oun] when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand).
16 Then [tote] let those in Judea flee into the mountains.
17 Let him on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house;
18 nor let him in the field turn back to take his clothes.
19 And [kai] woe to those who are with child, and to those who give suck in those days!
20 But [de] pray that your flight is not in the winter, nor on the sabbath day;
21 for [gar] then shall be great tribulation [megas thlipsis], such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be.
22 And [kai] unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened.

.. it continues like this all the way through the passage. Only those who choose to be intellectually dishonest with themselves will slice this passage up into various parts, and only those who choose to be intellectually dishonest with themselves will call God's wrath which is going to come upon the world "the great tribulation".

The obvious, unambiguous implication by the grammar in Matthew 24:9-31 is that the elect are indeed present in the world from the beginning to the end of this period of (great) tribulation. Therefore it's no wonder that a multitude of all nations, tribes and tongues who came out from great tribulation are seen in Revelation 7:13-14 - the third and last time in the New Testament that the thlipsis (tribulation) is described as megas (great) tribulation.

The abomination of desolation in the holy place is not a second reference to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem (which occurred in 70 A.D). The holy place is where the Spirit of God dwells.​

 

[The Light]

Besides that, the walls of Jericho fell down on the 7th day, the 7th time the people marched around the city on that same day, at the sound of the 7th ️trumpet, and when the people gave a great shout.

7th ️trumpet being sounded by the 7th priest on the 7th march around the city on the 7th day,

after the people had marched once around the city for six days when 7 ️trumpets were sounded on each march.

7 times on the 7h day, 7 ️trumpets with each march around the city = 49 trumpets are blown on the 7th day, + 7 for each previous day = Jericho was destroyed at the sound of the 91st trumpet️, not at the sound of the 100th.

The fact of the matter is in the Revelation it's the 7th trumpet.

Yeah and Christ sets up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The seventh trumpet sounds and the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

Christ has set up His kingdoms on earth at the 7th trumpet. Do you see any need at all for a rapture? Me neither.