the 7th Trump

[ewq1938]

Oh, I thought the Second Coming was linked to the Rapture? (same time) ???

Yes, same time. Second coming starts, resurrection happens, then the rapture.

So, what is the order of events, as you understand it?

Tribulation (3.5 yrs)
Great Tribulation (3.5 yrs)

There is only 3.5 years not 7 years. Christ said it was shortened and Rev shows 42 months for the beast to rule.

Rapture (marks end of GT)
Vials and bowls ????
Second Coming ??
Millennium ???

Great Tribulation (3.5 yrs)
Second coming, Resurrection, Rapture (after the end of GT)
Vials/bowls of wrath
Millennium

Does the the abomination of desolation separate the two halves of the Tribulation period?

The Trib or GT has no half mark. It is simply 42 months. The AoD is the beast or also known as the AC.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

 

[ewq1938]

My pleasure, as always.

Question: Do you guys consider yourselves to be Post-Trib, or Pre-Millennial? (may be the same thing?)

I am Post-trib, Pre-mill. Some are Pre-trib, Pre-mill.

Wasn't sure if either term was insulting. I see a lot of Pre-Millennialism bashing on the forum.

Yes, and it steers many towards the correct doctrine :)

 

[David in NJ]

I suppose that depends on how the Elect is here defined?
Perhaps an Elite Elect (specially elected) is commissioned to weather the Tribulation. ???
Not sure the general Elect could handle it.
Just thinking out loud here.

What would be the point of Christians (the Elect) being dragged through the Tribulation period?

Our LORD Jesus defined who His Elect are = John 1:10-13 , John 15:18-19 , Ephesians 1:3-6

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

There is no higher election then this as defined by God.

 

[ewq1938]

I suppose that depends on how the Elect is here defined?
Perhaps an Elite Elect (specially elected) is commissioned to weather the Tribulation. ???
Not sure the general Elect could handle it.

Elect are the elect. There is no such thing as "elite elect" VS. general elect.

What would be the point of Christians (the Elect) being dragged through the Tribulation period?

Fulfillment of prophecy:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

 

[Keraz]

Those scriptures do not say that. You noticeably do not even quote the verses and show where and how exactly they say what you think they are saying. That says a lot. Why don't you actually quote the part of those verses that you think support what you're saying and then we can discuss that.

The New Covenant will be made between the Lord and all His faithful peoples. It is not for individuals. As Ezekiel 37:26 says: I shall make an everlasting Covenant with them......
Hebrews 8:10 makes it clear that it will be a national Covenant and it hasn't been made yet.

We can make our own covenants, or vows, as Job 36:14 did. They do not constitute the New Covenant, to be made between the people of the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5 and sadly: in the last days; some of them break it; Daniel 11:32.

 

[ewq1938]

The New Covenant will be made between the Lord and all His faithful peoples. It is not for individuals.

Peoples are individuals.

As Ezekiel 37:26 says: I shall make an everlasting Covenant with them......
Hebrews 8:10 makes it clear that it will be a national Covenant and it hasn't been made yet.

We can make our own covenants, or vows, as Job 36:14 did. They do not constitute the New Covenant, to be made between the people of the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5 and sadly: in the last days; some of them break it; Daniel 11:32.

The new covenant started at the cross.


Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

He IS the mediator of a new covenant. It does not say he would be the mediator of a new covenant.

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Christ's death on the cross made the new testament/covenant begin which replaced old testament/covenant.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

He IS the mediator of a new covenant. It does not say he would be the mediator of a new covenant.

 

[n2thelight]

Jesus is returning in the clouds on rapture day for those looking for Him if you reject the rapture and are not looking for His return (caching up)thn you get to be left behind.

And if you are expecting a rapture you will be deceived

 

[n2thelight]

Is there a controversy to discuss here? Do some not agree that the Second Coming is... coming?
I know the Rapture is controversial. Pre/mid/post/pan

I assume a "Trump" is a trumpet? (aka in Rev.)
I'm no expert in trumpet counting. A seventh trumpet sounds like more than I was anticipating.
A little background on how you arrived at seven would be helpful. Thanks.

Question, is there an 8th trump ?

 

[Keraz]

Peoples are individuals.

Peoples constitute nations. It is obvious from the wording in all the Prophesies about the New Covenant, that it will be made between the Lord and all His Faithful Christian peoples. As Jesus said we would be. Matthew 21:43
Your desperate denials account for nothing.

The new covenant started at the cross.

Yes, that was when Jesus fulfilled His side of the new Covenant. We have not achieved ours yet.

Your stance of; we are in the new Covenant is blown out of contention, by the fact the results of it remain unfulfilled. Hebrews 8:10-12. simply has not yet happened.

Question, is there an 8th trump ?

The Seven Trumps of Revelation 8 +, and the Seven Bowls, are simply the way the Lord has used to mark that sequence of punishments.
I doubt if we will ever see or hear those trumps and we surely won't see the angels tipping Gods wrath out of those Vials, or Bowls.

Therre WILL be a actual trump when Jesus Returns; 1 Thess 4:16.
There WILL be the Last Trump after the Millennium, to raise all the dead for Judgment.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
As if non-Christians believe that the new covenant is not in effect. - LOL
Why would they care?

Say what now? Why would any Christian not acknowledge that it is in effect when scripture is clear that it was the shed blood of Christ that put it into effect while at the same time making the old covenant obsolete?

I wrote "non-Christians", not Christians.
And yes, I do believe we are under a new covenant.

 

[St. SteVen]

Question, is there an 8th trump ?

Since that's on the way to the 9th. I suppose Trump is all in.
He loves to golf!

 

[St. SteVen]

I am Post-trib, Pre-mill. Some are Pre-trib, Pre-mill.

After all this reading and education, I think I'm Post-Toasties. - LOL

 

[Zao is life]

Makes me wonder about the saying, "Maranatha". (come soon)
Why would anyone wish for that?

"Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate. It may be that the Lord Jehovah of hosts will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph.
So the LORD, the God of hosts, the Master, says this: Wailing shall be in all streets; and they shall say in all the highways, Alas! Alas! And they shall call the tiller to mourning, and those who are skillful in mourning to wailing.
And there shall be wailing in all vineyards; for I will pass through you, says the LORD.
Woe to those desiring the day of the LORD! What is this for you? The day of the LORD is darkness and not light;
as if a man fled from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house and leaned his hand on the wall, and a snake bit him.
Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness and not light? Even very dark, and no brightness in it?" (Amos 5:15-20).

IMO the term "the day of the LORD" does not only refer to the one to come. It refers to any time God's judgment came upon Israel or Judah or Jerusalem, or upon the nations (Babylon).

But the term great tribulation in the New Testament is not referring to the above, but to the tribulation the saints will have to face at the hand of the enemies of God and specifically, the enemy of God (one man), before that day.

We should be looking forward neither to the destruction of the wicked, who will have no more chance to repent, nor to the great tribulation.

Jesus and His apostles made us aware of it not so that we should be shouting in joyous anticipation of either - but we may and should shout in joyous anticipation of the return of Jesus which will = the day of the LORD.

So, Maranatha! (Rev.22:20).

 

[St. SteVen]

The New Covenant will be made between the Lord and all His faithful peoples. It is not for individuals. As Ezekiel 37:26 says: I shall make an everlasting Covenant with them......
Hebrews 8:10 makes it clear that it will be a national Covenant and it hasn't been made yet.

I'd like to hear more about the covenant with Israel.
That is not the NEW Covenant as I understand it.

The New Covenant replaces the old one.

Hebrews 8:7, 13 NIV
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. ...
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

 

[Zao is life]

"Unless those days are shortened no flesh would be saved but for the Elect's sake I(Jesus) have shortened the days......"

This Scripture alone completely refutes, rebukes and nullifies any 'pre-trib' rapture


#1 - there is no condemnation from me to anyone on here who believe in pre-trib

#2 - the Bible is written for children to read and understand = "simplicity in Christ"

#3 - We all should be striving for = 1 Corinthians 1:4-9
I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

#4 - We should all be walking in this = 1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

#5 - We should all be avoiding this = 1 Corinthians 1:11-14
For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Ce, that there are contentions among you.
Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided?
Was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Peace

Yes, and this is so because, @St. SteVen , at the end of the day,

"There is one body and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in you all." Ephesians 4:4-6

"For by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free, even all were made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many." 1 Corinthians 12:13-14

"Through Him (Jesus) we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,
and are built upon the foundation of the apostles (plural) and prophets (plural), Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom every building having been fitly framed together, grows into a holy sanctuary in the Lord; in whom you also are built together for a dwelling place of God through the Spirit." Ephesians 2:18-22

So each member has a fallible human mind, not all gleaning the same understanding from everything written in the scriptures. Makes no difference to the fact that we are all one in Christ. So there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus - but because we are fallible, we are capable of insulting one another when we disagree with one another on certain points, and even getting mad at one another at times. It's like siblings in any normal family.​

 

[St. SteVen]

It's like siblings in any normal family.

That's a good way to put it. Thanks.

 

[David in NJ]

Question, is there an 8th trump ?

Good question.

Answer: There is no record or declaration or prophecy of an 8th Trump in Revelation or the Gospel or by the Apostles.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, and this is so because, @St. SteVen , at the end of the day,

"There is one body and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in you all." Ephesians 4:4-6

"For by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free, even all were made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many." 1 Corinthians 12:13-14

"Through Him (Jesus) we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,
and are built upon the foundation of the apostles (plural) and prophets (plural), Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom every building having been fitly framed together, grows into a holy sanctuary in the Lord; in whom you also are built together for a dwelling place of God through the Spirit." Ephesians 2:18-22

So each member has a fallible human mind, not all gleaning the same understanding from everything written in the scriptures. Makes no difference to the fact that we are all one in Christ. So there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus - but because we are fallible, we are capable of insulting one another when we disagree with one another on certain points, and even getting mad at one another at times. It's like siblings in any normal family.​

@St. SteVen @ewq1938 @n2thelight @amigo de christo @No Pre-TB
Another major fault with pre-trib rapture is their doctrine must separate Jew from Gentile in Christ.

Separating Jew from Gentile in Christ is a very serious and subtle attack upon the Gospel.

In reply, Adonai Yeshua HaMoshiach says this: Matthew 24:14
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."

 

[St. SteVen]

Good question.

Answer: There is no record or declaration or prophecy of an 8th Trump in Revelation or the Gospel or by the Apostles.

What about the 8th day?
(I suppose we;ll need the early writings to answer that)
Hint: What day comes after the 7th day?

 

[St. SteVen]

@St. SteVen @ewq1938 @n2thelight @amigo de christo @No Pre-TB
Another major fault with pre-trib rapture is their doctrine must separate Jew from Gentile in Christ.

Separating Jew from Gentile in Christ is a very serious and subtle attack upon the Gospel.

In reply, Adonai Yeshua HaMoshiach says this: Matthew 24:14
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."

I'm not familiar with pre-trib rapture doctrine separating Jew from Gentile in Christ. ???
And I used to be Pre-Trib. Now I'm just Post-Toasties.