the 7th Trump

[The Light]

This is a PERFECT Declaration from our Lord Jesus Christ of Rapture = Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Exactly. Very God.

Now all you have to do is figure out which rapture it is and then who is being raptured.

At the above rapture the Lord sends His angels. When He comes for the Church, the Lord Himself will come.

 

[The Light]

Is not the Great Tribulation "the coming wrath"?

Actually, it is not. This is the common error of those that believe in a pretribulation rapture. The FACT that the great tribulation is not the wrath of God and most pretribbers claim it is, makes those that do not believe in a pretrib rapture think they are correct. It gives confidence
to THEIR ERROR that there will not be a pretribulaiton rapture.

Pre trib, Mid trib, Post trib, pan trib? The answer is pretrib and post trib. There are two raptures.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

God saw the fathers of the Jews as the 1st fruits of the 1st harvest. But they served other Gods and will not be the 1st harvest. It is the Gentiles that will be the first harvest because the Jews served other Gods.

The fig tree has TWO HARVESTS.

Jacob had TWO BRIDES. Leah and the chosen bride Rachel which he worked 7 more years for.

One raptured before the seals are opened and one raptured at the 6th seal, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. Then the wrath of God begins.

There is a reason there are 144,000 first fruits. They are the first fruits of the second harvest. God wanted the fathers of the Jews to be the 1st fruits of the first harvest. But since they are not, the 144,000 are.

 

[ewq1938]

Thanks.
Question: Did Noah get on the ark to be taken away BEFORE or AFTER judgement came?

God's judgment (wrath) was the flood so people entered the Ark right before it came.

(tribulation/flood/genocide)
Seems that the same facts also support a Pre-trib position. Right?

No, that would be people being taken to safety LONG before the flood of wrath came. The story matches post-trib where people are on the Earth when the wicked rule it, living daily as if they had no cares in the world. When the wrath would be soon, the righteous would be ready to be moved to safety (going in the Ark) and then the flood of wrath would come right away. So, when the GT is over, the righteous are raptured and the symbolic flood of wrath in the vials will come upon the wicked.

 

[The Light]

God's judgment (wrath) was the flood so people entered the Ark right before it came.

Noah, his family and all the animals are in the ark 7 days before the flood.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All of this is quite wrong;
1. Jesus only brings the souls of the GT martyrs with Him when He Returns.

That is quite wrong. That simply does not agree with other scriptures, but you don't seem to care about that. Other scriptures like 1 Thess 4:14-17 and 1 Cor 15:22-23 are quite clear that the souls of ALL dead believers will be with Him when He returns and all of them will be resurrected bodily when He returns.

2/ All the rest of the dead await the GWT Judgment.

That also is quite wrong. The rest of the dead refer to all those whose names are not written in the book of life who end up being cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

3/ Nobody receives immortality when Jesus Returns.

That is quite wrong as well. That is what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15.

4/ Those who have kept strong in their faith and have proved their trust in the Lord, will be transported to Jerusalem, where Jesus will be.

Quite wrong. We will meet Him "in the air" and He will destroy all of His enemies and then the judgment will take place.

5/ There will be no more destruction, or God's wrath after the GT, Revelation 15:1

Not sure what you're talking about here. There will be mass destruction occurring globally on the day Christ returns as passages like Matthew 24:35-39, Revelation 19:11-21 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 make very clear.

Jesus merely kills the armies of Satan by the Sword of His Word. They are not even burned up, as their corpses become bird food.

So, you think He will be killing them with a literal sword coming out of His mouth?

Try to read and understand what the Prophets actually say; not what you have been taught or want to happen.

I do. You don't know me at all. Not even a tiny bit. I do not believe what I do because of what I've been taught at all. That is nonsense. And I want to happen what God wants to happen.

 

[Zao is life]

Very informative post. Thank you. Much appreciated.

Yes, as always a theological bias drives interpretation. Same with Bible translation.
Where did our Bible come from? (western/Latin Church bias)

I have seen forum topics against Premillennialism as well.
(assuming that is the predominant position of posters on this thread?)
Seems that every view has biblical support to one degree or another.

Curious to understand why you see this as a "danger and sickening tragedy". ???
(opening phrase to your quoted post above)

The Savior tells His flock what to expect before His return, the tribulation His sheep are likely to endure at any given time, and the great tribulation those who see His coming will need to endure. Part of the flock seek to nullify what Jesus taught by turning it all into something the Jews endured in 70 A.D, or seek to nullify the things Jesus taught with a pre-tribulation rapture. It's sickening tragedy that Jesus' and the apostles' teaching gets so twisted so regularly.

At it's core the Amillenniliasm / Premillennialism debate is a disagreement only on whether or not that thousand years is now or is still coming. It does not nullify the grave warnings Jesus gave about tribulation.

Isis activities are not too far from us in this part of the continent anymore. Just across from our North-Eastern border. West African Christians have come under repeated attacks by Muslims, not to mention Central and North Africa, and parts of East Africa too. And not to even mention the things that the Christians in China have to face.

The churches in the West are so pampered by freedom and protection that the saints will believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, or that the whole great tribulation subject is something that was meant to be referring to the Jews in the 1st century. To me it's a sickening tragedy that so many people in the greatest Christian nation on earth (the USA) are so lulled by the eschatology of some into a false sense of ease.

 

[Zao is life]

It is written:
39 And they did not know until the flood came and took [airo] them all [hapas] away . So also will be the coming of the Son of man.

"they" is "them" and are cannot be separate

Noah knew the flood was coming whereas "they" did not and therefore they were taken away by the Prophesied Judgment.

"they" can only be the world who did not know what God was about to do/Flood, as Noah was preparing for it with the Ark.

Same as: "and to await His Son from heaven/preparing, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath."
AND
"While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."
AND
"Do not forsake the gathering of the Brethren, but get together the moreso as you see the Day approaching."
AND
"By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith."

Yes, they did not know was not referring to Noah - except that God did not tell Noah what day He was going to bring the flood, only to build the ark.

But I agree, it does seem to be referring more to those who did not believe. It's also those who "were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage" who were caught unawares, so yes, maybe @St. SteVen was correct and I will have to eat my words. Too bad. The Word of God is right and so if I was wrong, then I was wrong. Now I need to go back to your @St. SteVen 's post to see what argument you were using that as a basis for again.

 

[St. SteVen]

Actually, it is not. This is the common error of those that believe in a pretribulation rapture. The FACT that the great tribulation is not the wrath of God and most pretribbers claim it is, makes those that do not believe in a pretrib rapture think they are correct. It gives confidence
to THEIR ERROR that there will not be a pretribulaiton rapture.

I am appalled at the high level of tribalism on matters of Eschatology.
This was as much of your post as I could stomach. Sorry.
Thanks for the effort, but this is not helpful to Body life. IMHO

I know, I know... if I can't take the heat... I should get out of the kitchen. (sigh)

 

[Zao is life]

The New Covenant has not yet been made with anyone. Jesus will make it with His faithful Christian peoples, when they gather into all of the holy Land. Soon after the entire Middle East is cleared and cleansed. Deut 32:34-43, Jeremiah 10:18, +
Read Jeremiah 31:7-14 and verses 33-34 clearly remain unfulfilled. Also Ezekiel 34:25-31

Isaiah 61:8 mentions the new Covenant, which the Lord will make with the citizens of the new Nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, who will be only Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language. The nation that Jesus said will be given the Kingdom. Matthew 21:43

If the New Covenant has not yet been made with anyone then Jesus has not yet shed His blood and died in our place. Mat.26:28.

I realize you will have had an imagination about the meaning of that too, which will seek to nullify it, but it's there, in the words of Jesus and of God the Father.

Personally I do not believe that anyone who does not believe in Christ's words and have the giving of the New Covenant linked to His shed blood, has any part with Christ. But there you go.

 

[Zao is life]

Absolute total baloney.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The fact you are unable to see does not change the fact of the scripture.

"These things" is referring to the wrath of God coming upon unbelievers, not upon believers, and "these things" is not referring to tribulation or great tribulation that Jesus said over and over will come upon the saints at the hand of unbelievers.

The entire New Testament makes a distinction - a very clear distinction - between tribulation and the great tribulation on the one hand, and God's wrath on the other hand.

The fact you are unable to see does not change the fact of the scripture.

 

[St. SteVen]

So, when the GT is over, the righteous are raptured and the symbolic flood of wrath in the vials will come upon the wicked.

That's an interesting detail, thanks.
Is there biblical support for that?
Trying understand the order of events from your perspective.

 

[Keraz]

That is quite wrong. That simply does not agree with other scriptures, but you don't seem to care about that. Other scriptures like 1 Thess 4:14-17 and 1 Cor 15:22-23 are quite clear that the souls of ALL dead believers will be with Him when He returns and all of them will be resurrected bodily when He returns.

As I pointed out: Revelation 20:4 clearly states exactly who will accompany Jesus at His Return. ONLY those Christian martyrs killed during the 42 month period of world Satanic control. But you don't care about plainly stated scripture, if it conflicts with your beliefs.
I won't bother to refute the rest of your pretentious replies. You have lost any credibility you may have had.

If the New Covenant has not yet been made with anyone then Jesus has not yet shed His blood and died in our place. Mat.26:28.

I realize you will have had an imagination about the meaning of that too, which will seek to nullify it, but it's there, in the words of Jesus and of God the Father.

Personally I do not believe that anyone who does not believe in Christ's words and have the giving of the New Covenant linked to His shed blood, has any part with Christ. But there you go.

Jesus has proved His credentials for His side of the New Covenant. We have yet to fulfil ours.
I gave some of the Prophesies which show how it has to be made when all the Lords faithful Christian peoples are gathered into all of the holy Land. Did you? - 'Read Jeremiah 31:7-14 and verses 33-34 clearly remain unfulfilled. Also Ezekiel 34:25-31' Quote Keraz

It seems that I, as a Baptized Christian believer, am at odds with other people whose beliefs are from mans teachings, not from what the Bible actually says.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As I pointed out: Revelation 20:4 clearly states exactly who will accompany Jesus at His Return. ONLY those Christian martyrs killed during the 42 month period of world Satanic control. But you don't care about plainly stated scripture, if it conflicts with your beliefs.

This is very ironic coming from you. You don't accept what scripture like the following plainly states:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Paul taught that ALL who belong to Christ will be resurrected when He returns, but you don't take this plainly stated scripture into account when interpreting Revelation 20.

I won't bother to refute the rest of your pretentious replies. You have lost any credibility you may have had.

Says the guy who has never had any credibility.

Jesus has proved His credentials for His side of the New Covenant. We have yet to fulfil ours.
I gave some of the Prophesies which show how it has to be made when all the Lords faithful Christian peoples are gathered into all of the holy Land. Did you? - 'Read Jeremiah 31:7-14 and verses 33-34 clearly remain unfulfilled. Also Ezekiel 34:25-31' Quote Keraz

It seems that I, as a Baptized Christian believer, am at odds with other people whose beliefs are from mans teachings, not from what the Bible actually says.

So, I see that you have decided to continue telling the lie that my beliefs are from other people's teachings, which is not the case. I study scripture for myself like the Bereans. Your beliefs may not come from man's teachings, but they do come from your very active imagination rather than from scripture. That isn't any better.

 

[St. SteVen]

The churches in the West are so pampered by freedom and protection that the saints will believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, or that the whole great tribulation subject is something that was meant to be referring to the Jews in the 1st century. To me it's a sickening tragedy that so many people in the greatest Christian nation on earth (the USA) are so lulled by the eschatology of some into a false sense of ease.

Makes me wonder about the saying, "Maranatha". (come soon)
Why would anyone wish for that?

 

[Taken]

So far, no one has been able to post a single passage of scripture that declares a 'pre-trib' rapture.

At the Second Coming of Christ is the Resurrection followed immediately by the Rapture = 1 Thess 4:13-18 , 1 Cor ch15 , Heb 9:28

Tribulation is not God's Wrath as no Believer is exempt from tribulation, even the Great Tribulation = Matt ch24 , 1 & 2 Thess , Revelation

There has never been proclaimed from any OT Prophet or Allegory, nor from the Gospel, nor from the Apostles a pre-trib rapture.

Pre- trib
Mid- trib
Post- trib

Are all man made terms that each Applies to the Raising UP of mens BODY’S.

All MEN’S Body’s SHALL be Raised UP, Before that Body IS Judged and Receives it’s JudgeMENT Sentence.

(WHEN) Men’s Body’s ARE Raised UP (and to WHERE) is PER individuals BELIEFS, Confession of the individuals BELIEFS,
WHAT the individual BELIEVES AND WHEN the individual BELIEVED.

The TEACHING of what SHALL Apply to each individual man is Scripturally Taught.

The WHAT applies per a individuals Belief is Scripturally Taught.

The RAISING UP of BODY’s Per an individual mans Beliefs is Scripturally Taught.

HINT….there is NO billeted step by step, point by point Scriptural Outline for what Applies to every individual man.

Every Individual Freely Decides EXACTLY his own beliefs.
Every Individual Freely Chooses EXACTLY “IF” he WILL, “IF” he WILL NOT CONFESS his own beliefs, and TO WHOM…
Other people, God, Jesus, Christ, Satan.

One thing IS assuredly Prophetic…
* Every individual Freely has Choices.
* The Lord God Almighty SHALL END the existence of MORTAL manKind.
* ONLY Mortal manKIND MADE ANEW WHOLE, (body, soul, spirit), SHALL FOREVER DWELL “WITH” the Lord God Almighty.

* The WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHY, WHERE….
Regarding INDIVIDUAL MEN, IS taught IN Scripture.
* It is INDIVIDUAL men, who Freely Decide and Choose EXACTLY what SHALL Apply to them.

* The WHO, WHAT, WHEN WHY, WHERE….
Regarding GOD, JESUS, CHRIST, SATAN
IS Taught IN Scripture.

There is NO presumption, that Every individual man, freely believes, or freely chooses to Confess the Exact Same Beliefs.
Nor ON the SAME day.

So ARE there men who BELIEVE “IN” the existence OF God, Jesus, Christ, Satan…
Sure.
So ARE there men who DON’T BELIEVE “IN” the existence OF God, Jesus, Christ, Satan..
Sure.
So ARE there men who BELIEVE in One regarding (God, Jesus, Christ, Satan), but not ALL…
Sure.
So ARE there men who BELIEVE in One or None or ALL are SUPREME Authority, and Power?
Sure.
So ARE there men who BELIEVE in One or None or ALL can:
Forgive Sin,
RAISE a Dead Body up to Living,
SAVE a corrupt soul,
Birth a man a NEW spirit?
Cause a mans MADE immortal BODY, MADE saved SOUL, MADE born again SPIRIT to Live Forever.
Sure.

It is ALL ABOUT expressly WHO (God, Jesus, Christ, Satan)….offers Mankind WHAT, WHEN…and the WHY.
And WHO of individual manKIND, Accepts WHO, WHAT, HOW, WHEN, WHY….

All of the answers to the questions….
(Regarding God, Jesus, Christ, Satan)…
Ie the WHO, OFFERINGS OF WHAT, WHEN, WHY, WHERE, to WHOM….are revealed In Scripture.

All of the answer to the questions…
(Regarding Men) of:
WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, WHY….are revealed in Scripture.

This may appear Juvenile and it is like a Child is taught in first grade, to ARRIVE at a TRUTH, consider ALL the basics of:
Who, what, when, where, why….IS or IS not Applicable.

For what applies to me:
Is Belief in the existence of: God, Jesus, Christ, Satan.

Is an Offering of God THROUGH Jesus, for
Receipt of Forgiveness, Bodily Death, Soul Salvation, Spirit Quickening….BEFORE physical bodily Death.

Is I accepted (according to Gods Order and Way) His Offering of an ASSURED WHOLENESS NOW, and ASSURED Not subject to tribulations and wrath that SHALL BE SENT Down from Heaven UPON the inhabitants of the Earth.

THAT ^. Is what Applies to me.
HOW that Shall Be Effected is BY the Power of God, Raising UP my MADE anew, body, soul, spirit OFF and ABOVE the Face of the Earth, to the Clouds.

That is simply called Caught Up, or commonly Raptured.
That is NOT “A” Resurrection.
That is NOT “The First” Resurrection.
That is NOT “The Second/Last” Resurrection.
That also OCCURS (WHEN) Pre-tribulation.

Will men be saved during the Tribulation?
Absolutely.
Will their body’s be killed? Yes.
Will their body’s be raised Then? No.
Their saved soul, quickened spirit shall be raised to Heaven, and returned to them when their body is raised during the First Resurrection.

Will some mens body’s be raised After the Tribulation?
Absolutely.

So, Pre- Mid- Post Tribulation raising of Body’s is ALL Accurate….but DOES NOT APPLY to Every individual man.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The New Covenant has not yet been made with anyone.

This is a lie from the pit of hell. This one is up there with your denial of the deity of Christ. The new covenant was established by the blood of Christ long ago. We are saved under the new covenant. No new covenant means no personal relationship with Christ and no salvation.

Hebrews 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

If the new covenant is not yet in effect then that would mean the old covenant, with its many cumbersome commandments and animal sacrifices, is still in effect which is a ridiculous thing for anyone to believe. The old covenant is clearly no longer in effect and it was replaced by the superior new covenant long ago.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly. Very God.

Now all you have to do is figure out which rapture it is and then who is being raptured.

At the above rapture the Lord sends His angels. When He comes for the Church, the Lord Himself will come.

Which rapture? LOL. The things that people make up...wow.

 

[The Light]

Which rapture? LOL. The things that people make up...wow.

Make up? Jesus sends His angels in one rapture and the Lord Himself comes for the Church in another rapture.

One rapture is like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. And one rapture is like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

One rapture is the grain harvest and one rapture is the fruit harvest.

One rapture at the trump of God or voice of God and one rapture at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

One rapture the dead in Christ rise first and then the alive that remain are caught up and one rapture the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye.

And you see one rapture? Wow. How are you able to look past the details?

 

[St. SteVen]

This is a lie from the pit of hell.

Wow.
Sure is great to be a Christian. (sigh)

 

[St. SteVen]

And you see one rapture? Wow. How are you able to look past the details?

The rapture shell game.
Rapture, rapture... who's got the rapture?
You guys are something else.
Pre-, Mid-, Post-, now Two? ??? Wow.