the 7th Trump

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Timtofly

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What unscriptural nonsense!
The dead people from Adam to now, ALL 'sleep' in the grave, they know nothing until they are raised to stand before God in Judgment. Hebrews 9:27, Revelation 20:11-15
That is not what Jesus taught, nor Paul. You are stuck in the teachings of a man who had 700 wives, and 300 concubines.
 

Timtofly

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Genesis ch6 = BAD "sons of God" mixing with "daughters of men" = BAD nephilim BIG Time Tribulation
Not exactly:

The offspring was born into sin. The sons of God did not become sinners, because they married a sinful person. It was the offspring that had issues.

You are applying a Sunday morning sermon to God's Word that will not work in context.

Here is context: a bushel of good apples will not turn a rotten apple good. The rotten apple will turn all the good ones bad.

So the offspring between sons of God without sin and those with sin, only produced more sin. The offspring were corrupted. Then they had corrupted offspring, and each generation did not get better, but sunk deeper into disobedience. In other words it got easier and easier to do unrighteousness. Thus God's spirit could no longer struggle with those offspring who still had the glory of God, but enjoyed fallen human's wickedness.


The tribulation was the Flood that washed away all the filth into the depths of the earth. Thus creating a larger sheol than what was the pit where those angels that rebelled were in chains of darkness.
 

ewq1938

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You are forcing the Word to fit your incorrect assumption as you are unable to understand that Jesus comes for a harvest at the 6th seal. Here is that harvest


He does no such thing. He didn't come for a harvest during the OD either.
 

n2thelight

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Is there a controversy to discuss here? Do some not agree that the Second Coming is... coming?
I know the Rapture is controversial. Pre/mid/post/pan

I assume a "Trump" is a trumpet? (aka in Rev.)
I'm no expert in trumpet counting. A seventh trumpet sounds like more than I was anticipating.
A little background on how you arrived at seven would be helpful. Thanks.
Simply means the last , unless you can show me a 8th
 

David in NJ

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Not exactly:

The offspring was born into sin. The sons of God did not become sinners, because they married a sinful person. It was the offspring that had issues.

You are applying a Sunday morning sermon to God's Word that will not work in context.

Here is context: a bushel of good apples will not turn a rotten apple good. The rotten apple will turn all the good ones bad.

So the offspring between sons of God without sin and those with sin, only produced more sin. The offspring were corrupted. Then they had corrupted offspring, and each generation did not get better, but sunk deeper into disobedience. In other words it got easier and easier to do unrighteousness. Thus God's spirit could no longer struggle with those offspring who still had the glory of God, but enjoyed fallen human's wickedness.


The tribulation was the Flood that washed away all the filth into the depths of the earth. Thus creating a larger sheol than what was the pit where those angels that rebelled were in chains of darkness.
"ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God"

Your thesis has failed and is not in agreement with the Word.
 
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Timtofly

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"ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God"

Your thesis has failed and is not in agreement with the Word.
So the sheep and wheat are sinners and never redeemed? Just allowed to live on in sin for eternity? Any resurrection is just into Adam's dead flesh for all eternity? Are you sure you are talking about life after the Second Coming?
 

Stumpmaster

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So the sheep and wheat are sinners and never redeemed? Just allowed to live on in sin for eternity? Any resurrection is just into Adam's dead flesh for all eternity? Are you sure you are talking about life after the Second Coming?
Please, get your metaphors right.

We have sheep and goats being separated, and wheat and tares are also sorted apart.

The sheep are saved, as is the wheat.

Goats and tares are doomed.
 

Selah

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Regarding the (last) 7th trumpet (the Trump of God in 1 Thes. 4:16), it’s noteworthy that when it blows, it’s time for the third and final ”Woe!” (Rev. 11:14-15) There are no trumpets left to sound. The King of kings and Lord of lords returns!

The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

- Revelation 11:14-15 (KJV)
 

The Light

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Regarding the (last) 7th trumpet (the Trump of God in 1 Thes. 4:16), it’s noteworthy that when it blows, it’s time for the third and final ”Woe!” (Rev. 11:14-15) There are no trumpets left to sound. The King of kings and Lord of lords returns!

The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

- Revelation 11:14-15 (KJV)
Regarding the 7th trumpet blown by an angel. It is neither the last trump nor the trump of God which is the voice of. God.

The trump of God, 1 Thes 4:16, will occur before the seals are opened. See Revelation 4 as 24 elders have crowns. You don't get crowns unless Jesus returns.

The last trump,1 Corinthians 15:52, will be blown at the 6th seal, which is BEFORE the trumpets of wrath.

Jesus sets up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet blown by an angel. Armageddon is over and it is the time of judgement.
 

No Pre-TB

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The dead in Christ rise first. That's Biblical.
1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then the alive believers that remained are raptured.

1 Thes 4
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is a completely different event than 1 Corinthians 15. The dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye.
1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Corinthians 15 occurs at the end of the great tribulation which we see here.
The dead in Christ rise first is 1 resurrection. The Harpazo is 1. There is not a second harpazo and there is only 1 other resurrection.

As far as 1 Cor 15, it is not another harpazo or a resurrection because it is describing how fast our change is, in the twinkling of an eye.

but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This change from mortal to immortality is instantaneous.
There are not 3 more comings, there are 5 more comings.

The Lord comes for the dead in Christ.
The Lord comes for the alive believers that remain.
The Lord comes for the 144,000 first fruits.
The Lord comes for the gathering from heaven and earth.
The Lord comes with the armies of heaven.
You are not discerning. There is only 1 more advent. Heaven receives Christ till he leaves Heaven for Earth one last time where he will dwell on Earth. The dead rise from their tombs and meet him in the air as he descends. Then, sometimes after that...either right away or some unknown time in between, those who are alive and survive will be harpazod to meet the Lord in the air by his followers leading him, as a Kingly procession, as King over the whole Earth. The armies in Heaven are his Holy Ones. He treads the wine press alone. They do not. The reapers are the messengers that come to bind the tares in order to burn them in the bowls.
The fact you do not understand it does not make it unscriptural.
I wish you would go back and look at scripture in a way that the spirit leads you.
Have you noticed 24 elders with crowns in Revelation 4. Why do they have their reward.
The things in heaven were already there as a pattern for the things on Earth when Moses was given the law.
Please ask yourself these questions:


  1. How are the elders in Heaven before Christ enters?
  2. The 24 divisions in 1 Chronicles 24 were a shadow of the elders which means the elders existed in heaven back then.​
  3. The elders sing the song with angels therefore they cannot be redeemed​
  4. The elders hold the prayers of the saints. The first seal has not been opened. If the church is raptured, why are they holding prayers? And whose prayers? Not the made up "tribulation saints" because the seal's arnt even opened yet.​
  5. The elders are “elder” to John when he see's them and he doesn't recognize them as he bows before one of them. They predate the 12 disciples and the church.​
  6. The DotL doesnt start till its “near” (Joel 3) the harvest in Rev 14 and the 7th Trumpet. The elders cannot be raptured before seal 1 if the seals and the trumpets are not God's wrath. The DotL doesnt happen till “after” the 6th seal (Joel 2:31)​
  7. The elders are not part of the great multitude that no man could number of all tribes, tongues, nations and peoples.​
  8. The seven spirits of God are under God's authority in Ch. 4; and in Ch.5, when the lamb enters, Christ has the authority.​
  9. There is no mention of the judgment seat (bema)​
  10. There is no mention of a resurrection.​
  11. There is no rejoicing of victory over death​
  12. There is no mention of Christ kingdom has come per 2 Tim 4:1​
  13. There is no wedding mentioned.​
  14. Rev 1:6, John says we have become a kingdom and priests as present. Yet when the elders/living beast sing the song in Rev 5:9-10, it is demonstrating a past event when Christ shed his blood. Not a new event that will happen in the future.
  15. The new song of Rev 5 was “new” when Christ died on the cross. But Rev 14:3 shows that in the future, there is a newer song sung. If the elders are the raptured church, why don't they know this song? And why are only the 144k, who are called redeemed from the earth, able to sing it before the throne. The redeemed are distinct from the 4 living creatures and the elders.
  16. In Rev 19:4, the 24 elders and 4 living beasts fall down to worship God. Directly after this, a voice asks for all God's servants to praise him. If the elders are the church, didn't all his people just praise him when they worshiped?​
  17. Marriage of the lamb comes after Babylon is destroyed and after the elders worship and before the defeat of the beast. Rev 19​
  18. Before Jesus died, no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll. When Jesus died, He paid the price to ransom humanity and all of creation back to Himself. We know that Jesus is the firstborn of the resurrected, therefore no humans could have been resurrected from the dead and glorified before Him. So how do the elder's appear in Rev 4 before Jesus receives the sealed scroll?​
  19. 2 issues here: Some Pre-Tbers take Rev 4:1 as a "rapture". John is never spiritualized as representing the church universal. Secondly, how does someone understand this as a rapture of the church if we are told to: Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. What things will God show us hereafter the resurrection?​
  20. Pre-Tb says the rapture happens before the 7 year "tribulation. John 11:24, John 6:39, John 6:40 all confirm that the resurrection happens on the last day. Not 7 years before the last day.​
  21. You cannot explain future things like the 6th seal without explaining what were the other seals. And if the seals are explained, one must explain who broke them. Then one must explain why He was able to.​
Now, let me ask a question since you strictly believe the trumpets are God's wrath on mankind. When is the hour of trial/testing that will come on the whole world and is a trial or testing ever shown to be wrath?
Secondly, why are the first 4 trumpets not even woes? If they were God's wrath, wouldn't they use some type of wording that explains it like the bowls do. Interesting to note, the plagues in Egypt were not wrath but trials and temptations against Egypt because "they did not know God nor did they fear Him. Deuteronomy 4:34
If you read the trumpets as some science fiction novel, you'll never understand what John was seeing because it requires OT scripture to understand.
 
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Timtofly

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Please, get your metaphors right.

We have sheep and goats being separated, and wheat and tares are also sorted apart.

The sheep are saved, as is the wheat.

Goats and tares are doomed.
The poster claims they will forever be in their sins. I was just asking why.