Illuminator,
Every Christian has a priest.
Every Christian has a priest.
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The Nicene Creed is a statement of the Christian faith that includes salvation, and excludes the Arian heresy that challenged the identity of Christ. But, it's just as I suspected. You reject the Nicene Creed and consequently, have a warped view of the Incarnation. That's why you fail to understand the Church is an extension of the Incarnation, united by the Eucharist. Moses was a murderer and David was a murderer and an adulterer so your "flawed men" theory makes no sense.There are 4 of them found in the Nicene Creed. One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. If you think the Nicene Creed is wrong, we have to re-invent the wheel and explain the Incarnation.
Created by flawed men and believing in that creed doesnt save you.
That's an excuse for having no deacons, priests or bishops; offices clearly found in the NT that you don't have.Illuminator,
Every Christian has a priest.
Christ Is Our High Priest
14 So then, since we have a great High Priest who has entered heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we believe. 15 This High Priest of ours understands our weaknesses, for he faced all of the same testings we do, yet he did not sin.16 So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most.
Christianity without consistency is not Christianity. The Bible is not a do-it-yourself manual where you can just delete biblical offices to force-fit it into your world view.
That's not what I said. Jesus is High Priest, but that does not automatically rule out ministerial priests, and the common priesthood does not automatically rule out ministerial priests. The structure or ecclesiology of the Church is modelled after the Davidic Kingdom, not AT&T or Microsoft.You said something very odd to me, when stating the Christ Jesus, the Lord, who is the Savior and leader in Salvation, to all who seek him - that is no excuse to not have bishops or deacons.
Then why are they in the Bible with specific roles in union with other believers???There is no use for them.
That's the problem: "the authority in spiritual things" in your privatized system is determined by the individual, and not by any authority. The Bible doesn't teach that.Though people can teach in this world, and teach the Bible. It doesn't make them the authority in spiritual things, nor are they the 'safeguards' of who is deemed Christian or who has not been deemed a Christian, based on 'if they are acquainted with a church as being a member. I have nothing against Catholic people as individuals, if you are catholic, hey I love you as a brother in Christ Jesus, if you are a follower of him.
Hebrews 11:1-6 YLT98“And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction, for in this were the elders testified of; by faith we understand the ages to have been prepared by a saying of God, in regard to the things seen not having come out of things appearing; by faith a better sacrifice did Abel offer to God than Cain, through which he was testified to be righteous, God testifying of his gifts, and through it, he being dead, doth yet speak. By faith Enoch was translated — not to see death, and was not found, because God did translate him; for before his translation he had been testified to — that he had pleased God well, and apart from faith it is impossible to please well, for it behoveth him who is coming to God to believe that He is, and to those seeking Him He becometh a rewarder.”
Eph 4:11 | And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; |
Eph 4:12 | For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: |
Eph 4:13 | Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: |
Eph 4:14 | That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; |
Eph 4:15 | But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: |
Eph 4:16 | From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. |
My earliest experience with God was enhanced by Catholic nuns and priests. I was the only one in my immediate family for many years who made any apparent [to me] at serving God.I have stated many times that I have no trouble with people teaching, @amadeus.
Yes those verses are there, and there many teachings out there, some are good, some are bad.
Some are works based, some are you need to do a little this and that to be okay with God.
I am not arguing against your point of view. Rather just consider what Paul wrote. Perhaps not everyone has or needs the five ministers mentioned in those verses, but I believe that some do at some point in their walk with God. Are there some that do not? I can only answer that I did. My experience is not necessarily to be the experience on every believer.
My projection is looking past even though sure you could have been taught by your dad, grandpa, personal friend, maybe your mom about God.
Being led by the Holy Spirit is perhaps the authority about which you speak. With that I would certainly agree.That is normally the authority we grow up with - but there is a spiritual authority that is higher and more better which leads to loving God and loving others.
Not every person is the same. Surely you agree with that. Some people for at least a period of time do need the help of men. God would work through some people in that many even as He sometimes works through you or me or on this forum.There was a set up section of people in that day in age, which Paul is writing to... which were going to be perfect church bride for Christ to return and come get.
Back then they were still under the commandmnets of the Apostles whom Jesus Christ left in Charge.
Its now God who is charge and who is able to work on peoples hearts and minds by writing on them, and sending his spirit to be with them, if they seekers in faith towards Him, whom sent his son.
SO I do not get where people need to seek out authority on spiritual matters - when you can pray and ask God and do the work yourself, maybe that is selfish but it seems like you can do that and God will not strike you down.
Give God the glory my friend!Because it is said you can ask God for wisdom as long as your not doubting or trying to spending something on your pleasures.
I certainly agree here. Even in my day also as a young man I encountered too many putting on show to win people effectively to themselves instead of to God. How hungry and thirsty is a person for the righteousness of God? Will He not fill even a newby who knows little?Yes Ama, I do, but they should be weary though!
If someone doesn't encourage you to read the bible on your own and explore and ask God.
And they just tell you stuff and you dont go check it out, be careful not to be manipulated!
That is what I worry about really, cause people abuse people and can manipulate and use people at any given time.
Mt 5:6 | Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled |
How much authority did Jesus have over devils and demons according to the gospel narratives? How like Jesus are we now and how much like him can we become?Also I dont think there is any authority given to anyone that has the holy spirit, @amadeus.
I believe all authority belongs to God, the Lord God Almighty. And He is the ultimate authority which he can make a person realize what they are doing by the holy spirit putting in on their heart of whatever it is that may have been wrong. The Holy Spirit, is the Spirit of God.
How much authority did Jesus have over devils and demons according to the gospel narratives? How like Jesus are we now and how much like him can we become?
Would it not depend upon the individual and his walk with and his calling from God? How much authority does God have over you and me during our allotted time here in the flesh? Only as much as we give Him. Many times, I believe, God or His Son, is knocking on a man's door wanting to come into that man's heart, but too often the man declines to open the door. He wants to continue traveling his own way for his own purposes. God wants to have the authority over the man, but He will NOT force His way inside of us. We must invite Him. When we have extended the invitation by opening our heart [the door] to Him then we have given the authority back to God. Of course, when allotted runs out [time of natural death] we have then the reward we have chosen when we chose NOT to open unto Him.It depends on the context.
To kill [mortify] the deeds and ways of the flesh, we need help. God provides the help to those who sincerely ask of Him and surrender themselves to His authority. The help is through the Helper, the Holy Spirit. Without Him we can do nothing... that is nothing in accord with God's will.From what is understood by Pauls letters is that our flesh is what one is die to, along with dying to sin, by mortifying the deeds of the body become alive unto God and alive towards Christ, allowing Christ to manifest with-in you by the spirit of Christ you are given along with the holy spirit given from God through faith.
2co 3:5 | Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; |
2co 3:6 | Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. |
If a person surrenders his own will completely to God's, then the authority is God's in us. How many people actually do that? Anyone who sincerely surrenders in part does it in part, but how many have surrendered as completely to God as did Jesus? Again, the question, how much like Him can we become. Consider what John wrote here:Yes, it is true that the flesh starts to die away, the more one puts their faith and builds upon the chief corner stone.
However, it doesn't give anyone authority over anything - unless it specifically say something to you about doing so.
1jo 3:2 | Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. |
1co 13:9 | For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. |
1co 13:10 | But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. |
If we give it all that we have continuously, perhaps then God will take up the slack, since our own efforts alone cannot bring us to the goal:From my understanding it is up to you as an individual to ask God to help you with your problems, but you also must make your own effort in also trying to either put down a problem on is having or let go, and let God be, and pray.
Mr 10:26 | And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? |
Mr 10:27 | And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. |
Serious? You no doubt believe yourself to be very clever, demanding writings from a people, for example the Waldenses, who were all but exterminated from the face of the earth were it not for the intervention of the protestant nations of Europe. As if your Catholic overlords were going to leave anything behind as a testimony to their spiritual superiority over the ignorant murderers that spent centuries attempting to destroy them.Ok….They weren’t invisible. That means they left some trace of their existence. Based on your theory I will accept your version of Christian history. With that said:
Can you share any of the historical writings from these “mission focused“ “bishops/overseers“?
Soooo the Waldenses were this “invisible” church you speak of with bishops and overseers?Serious? You no doubt believe yourself to be very clever, demanding writings from a people, for example the Waldenses, who were all but exterminated from the face of the earth were it not for the intervention of the protestant nations of Europe. As if your Catholic overlords were going to leave anything behind as a testimony to their spiritual superiority over the ignorant murderers that spent centuries attempting to destroy them.
As for the churches of the East, they also were persecuted and the majority wiped out by such as Tammerlane.
But there are numerous historians that testify to their existence.