Johann
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I think I know where this is going-tell me, in WHAT way did Messiah "experience the sting of death?"
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face2face
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No the Law of sin and death was working in his members i.e the condemnation of death was in his nature as its in yours....you see God had to break that power! That's His victory.
face2face
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Jesus is representative in every way, tempted as we are, yet without sin. He crucified the flesh daily in mind, then in body on the tree showing the way for us to follow.
The Apostle Paul in Galatians 5:24 writes, “And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.”
The believer today must do this daily, and while we fail, he is faithful to fogive us and save us.
F2F
Johann
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It would appear you have a low view of Messiah in that Yeshua was a mere mortal man and had a sinless nature and became sin personified on the cross.
Go back to imputation and Substitute---and don't forget
ομοιωματι-Also, Jesus is Priest, Prophet and King
But poured out and emptied himself [2C 8:9], taking the demut of the mode of being of an eved [YESHAYAH 52:13- 53:12 [T.N. see the AVDI TZADDIK TZEMACH DOVID MOSHIACH YIRMEYAH 23:5; ZECHARIAH 3:8], and was born in the likeness of Bnei Adam [Yn 1:14; Ro 8:3; MJ 2:14-17], and having been found in appearance as an Adam,
keep this in mind-LIKENESS
borne . . . carried = borne the punishment for. See note on Eze_4:4. Mat_8:17. Compare verses: Isa_53:11, Isa_53:12
Lev 16:21 and Aaron shall lay his hands on the head of the live goat, and he shall declare over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their unrighteousness, and all their sins; and he shall lay them upon the head of the live goat, and shall send him by the hand of a ready man into the wilderness.
Lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear their unrighteousnesses upon him into a desert land; and Aaron shall send away the goat into the wilderness.
Powerful-
וְסָמַ֨ךְ ve·sa·Mach shall lay אַהֲרֹ֜ן 'a·ha·Ron And Aaron אֶת־ 'et- שְׁתֵּ֣י she·Tei both [יָדֹוya·dov כ] (יָדָ֗יו ya·Dav, of his hands ק) עַ֨ל 'al over רֹ֣אשׁ rosh upon the head הַשָּׂעִיר֮ has·sa·'Ir goat הַחַי֒ ha·Chai of the live וְהִתְוַדָּ֣ה ve·hit·vad·Dah and confess עָלָ֗יו 'a·Lav, over אֶת־ 'et- כָּל־ kol- all עֲוֹנֹת֙ 'a·vo·Not over him all the iniquities בְּנֵ֣י be·Nei of the children יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל Yis·ra·'El, of Israel וְאֶת־ ve·'Et כָּל־ kol- and all פִּשְׁעֵיהֶ֖ם pish·'ei·Hem and all their transgressions לְכָל־ le·chol to all חַטֹּאתָ֑ם chat·to·Tam; in all their sins וְנָתַ֤ן ve·na·Tan putting אֹתָם֙'o·Tam עַל־ 'al- over רֹ֣אשׁ rosh them upon the head הַשָּׂעִ֔יר has·sa·'Ir, of the goat וְשִׁלַּ֛ח ve·shil·Lach and shall send [him] away בְּיַד־ be·yad- his hands אִ֥ישׁ 'ish man עִתִּ֖י 'it·Ti of a fit הַמִּדְבָּֽרָה׃ ham·mid·Ba·rah. into the wilderness
Lev 16:22 וְנָשָׂ֨א ve·na·Sa shall bear הַשָּׂעִ֥יר has·sa·'Ir And the goat עָלָ֛יו 'a·Lav and אֶת־ 'et- כָּל־ kol- all עֲוֹנֹתָ֖ם 'a·vo·no·Tam upon him all their iniquities אֶל־ 'el- about אֶ֣רֶץ 'E·retz unto a land גְּזֵרָ֑ה ge·ze·Rah; not inhabited וְשִׁלַּ֥ח ve·shil·Lach and he shall let go אֶת־'et- הַשָּׂעִ֖יר has·sa·'Ir the goat בַּמִּדְבָּֽר׃ bam·mid·Bar. in the wilderness
The Septuagint version is even more literal and explicit than ours: Kai epitheesei Aaroon tas cheiras autou epi teen kefaleen tou chimarou tou zoontos, kai exagoreusei ep auton pasas tas anomias toon huioon Israeel kai pasas tas adikias autoon kai pasas tas hamartias autoon kai epitheesei autas epi teen kefaleen tou chimarou tou zoontos, kai exapostelei en cheiri anthroopou etoimou eis teen ereemou kai lepsetai ho chimaros ef' heautoo tas hamartias autoon eis geen abaton.
Many of the expressions used in this translation are identical with those met with in the writings of the apostles, who employed the translation of the Septuagint (cf. Rom_3:25; 1Pe_1:18-19; 1Pe_2:24; Heb_2:17; Rev_5:9)].
Rashi-
the people’s [sin-offering he-goat]: For what the bull atones for the kohanim [namely, defilements of the Sanctuary and its holy things], the he-goat atones for the Israelites, and this goat was the one upon which the lot “For the Lord” had fallen. - [Yoma 61a]
אֲשֶׁר לָעָם: מַה שֶּׁהַפָּר מְכַפֵּר עַל הַכֹּהֲנִים מְכַפֵּר הַשָּׂעִיר עַל יִשְׂרָאֵל, וְהוּא הַשָּׂעִיר שֶׁעָלָה עָלָיו הַגּוֹרָל לַשֵּׁם (שבועות ב'):
as he had done with the bull’s blood: [namely, sprinkling it] once above and seven times below. — [Torath Kohanim 16:41; Yoma 55a]
See, no "commentary" @face2face but I know what you are submitting, having to read between the lines, and it does not "sit well"
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face2face
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My view of the Lord is High & Lofty! however of his nature, it couldnt be lower! Even Jesus himself said of his baptism, it was to fulfill all righteousness that it (his flesh) be put to death!
When I have time this eveing, I would like to look at your post in more detail.
Maybe wait in responding.
Thanks
F2F
Johann
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No, this is your assumption.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
I know where this is going, and I want no part of it, in fact, this is bordering on blasphemy.
This, and the fact that you don't want to SAY what is unthinkable.
But hey, this is why I have my "selective" secondary sources, maybe you should give it a try?
Not being facetious.
Johann
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Johann
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Johann
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You "inserted" sarki/ basar-here where it does not belong and as to the nature of Christ-God in the likeness of flesh. @face2face
Jesus was God in human form. He was perfect, sinless in every way, like no human being before or after. He was not just good; he was God. Despite the fact that he was tempted in every way just as we are, he did not succumb to human desires, needs or temptations.
Colossians 1:15
Colossians 1:15 and 2:9 are two of the strongest statements in the entire Bible about the divine nature of Jesus Christ. He is not only "equal to" God, He is God! Jesus not only reflects God, He reveals God. He was not a mere statue, a close representation of or likeness of God. He was not like the moon, which reflects the glory of something greater, the sun. He was certainly a channel for God's glory, completely and totally. Being completely holy, He has the authority to judge the world. In Him is no clearer view of what God is like!
So you have a high view as to Messiah, but a "low view as to His nature/flesh?"
Mat 3:15 ἈποκριθεὶςG611|G5679|V-AOP-NSM|Answering, δὲG1161|CONJ|however, ὁG3588|T-NSM|- ἸησοῦςG2424|N-NSM-P|Jesus εἶπενG2036|G5627|V-2AAI-3S|said πρὸςG4314|PREP|unto αὐτόνG846|P-ASM|him, ἌφεςG863|G5628|V-2AAM-2S|Permit [it] ἄρτιG737|ADV|presently; οὕτωςG3779|ADV|thus γὰρG1063|CONJ|for πρέπονG4241|G5723|V-PAP-NSN|fitting ἐστὶνG1510|G5719|V-PAI-3S|it is ἡμῖνG1473|P-1DP|to us πληρῶσαιG4137|G5658|V-AAN|to fulfill πᾶσανG3956|A-ASF|all δικαιοσύνηνG1343|N-ASF|righteousness. τότεG5119|ADV|Then ἀφίησινG863|G5719|V-PAI-3S|he permits αὐτόνG846|P-ASM|Him.
But answering him, Yehoshua said, Permit it now, for thus it is proper to fulfill all Tzidkat Hashem [Dan 9:24].
all righteousness: or every claim of righteous duty. This was the anointing of Messiah (see note on Mat_3:17), and anointing was accompanied by washing or immersion (Exo_29:4-7; Exo_40:12. Lev_8:6).
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face2face
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Check out Luke 12:50 another insight into the agony he experienced daily till that final agony,
face2face
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Yes, having your nature (the same) he was tempted by it but found to be without sin. Paul is at pains to express Jesus as being like you in everyway yet without sin. I could post many verses to prove this but I sense you will hold to what you think you know over Pauls teaching.
Johann
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Brother, what you have typed here is utter nonsense-you say Jesus was prone to sinful propensities/law of sin/death-- "working in His members?"
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The law of the Spirit of life (ho nomos tou pneumatos tēs zōēs). The principle or authority exercised by the Holy Spirit which bestows life and which rests “in Christ Jesus.”
Made me free (ēleutherōsen me). First aorist active indicative of the old verb eleutheroō for which see note on Gal_5:1. Aleph B have se (thee) instead of me. It matters little. We are pardoned, we are free from the old law of sin and death (7:7-24), we are able by the help of the Holy Spirit to live the new life in Christ.
In the likeness of sinful flesh
Lit., of the flesh of sin. The choice of words is especially noteworthy. Paul does not say simply, “He came in flesh” (1Jn_4:2; 1Ti_3:16), for this would not have expressed the bond between Christ's manhood and sin. Not in the flesh of sin, which would have represented Him as partaking of sin. Not in the likeness of flesh, since He was really and entirely human; but, in the likeness of the flesh of sin: really human, conformed in appearance to the flesh whose characteristic is sin, yet sinless. “Christ appeared in a body which was like that of other men in so far as it consisted of flesh, and was unlike in so far as the flesh was not flesh of sin” (Dickson).
For sin (περὶ ἁμαρτίας)
The preposition expresses the whole relation of the mission of Christ to sin. The special relation is stated in condemned. For sin - to atone, to destroy, to save and sanctify its victims.
Condemned
Deposed from its dominion, a thing impossible to the law, which could pronounce judgment and inflict penalty, but not dethrone. Christ's holy character was a condemnation of unholiness. Construe in the flesh with condemned.
Vincent.
If, as you suggest, the "law of sin and death working in His own members" then why the need to "atone for the sins of the whole world?"
Who is Yeshua to you? Man, Son of man, ο υιος του θεου-God? Just answer me this question.
Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
You see that? Messiah is, by nature, God!
face2face
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I am surprised (no shocked) this principle of Crufiying the Flesh daily is new to you all? Paul said it here in 1 Corinthians 15:31
I declare by my rejoicing in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord: I die daily. Of course he was resurrected daily also! Praise be to God!
Keep in mind this is not a literal death, so please dont go there! He is speaking about putting to death the natural desires of his nature to rejoice in his Lord. He was afterall doing what Christ taught him.
Jesus "leaving us an example, that we should follow his steps" (1 Peter. 2:21). As he "bare our sins in his own body on the tree" (in that he inherited the weakness to which the flesh is heir, and which, in others leads to sin): so we should attempt to crucify "the flesh with its affections and lusts that otherwise "so easily beset us.
Jesus wasnt beset with sin because he put to death those temptations constantly in his life.
The Apostle Paul shows the intensity of this crucfying the flesh everyday when he penned these words
Spekaing of Jesus, Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
You would need to be ignorant if you think Jesus resisting temptation was only at the point of his death - surely you know the Lord better than that?
He resisted by putting every rebelloius thought to death and as Paul said bring them into captivity - locking them up never to be released.
I could go on but this is getting rather pointless if you guys dont know the Lords struggle nor willing to accept it.
F2F
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face2face
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So you dont believe he was tempted? You dont believe he was capable of sin?
If this is true, you know what you are left with, dont you?
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face2face
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@Johann
“Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God ...” (Heb. 2:17).
How do you understand being made like you in every respect?
Don’t explain it away like you did with Romans 8...answer the question Why! Why was it essential Christ be in your nature? What was in the Mind of God in raising up Jesus in the line of Adam, Abraham, David etc? Why make him the Son of Man? What was he to represent in being born into sins flesh?
You know the answer - we have been over these many times.
F2F
“Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God ...” (Heb. 2:17).
How do you understand being made like you in every respect?
Don’t explain it away like you did with Romans 8...answer the question Why! Why was it essential Christ be in your nature? What was in the Mind of God in raising up Jesus in the line of Adam, Abraham, David etc? Why make him the Son of Man? What was he to represent in being born into sins flesh?
You know the answer - we have been over these many times.
F2F
Johann
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You are deflecting, avoiding direct questions, left unanswered, and have made assumptions on the Holy Writ @face2face. The one here needing the sources I have given you- is you.
It will also be helpful to look up verses in Greek and Hebrew and the Morphologies, having a good concordance.
This is where you are coming from-
A number of theologians of the past 200 years have maintained that Christ had a human nature that possessed the property of being fallen, but not the property of being sinful.
I'll leave you with this thought, since you don't really want to be corrected-
This is a very important question which demonstrates much thought and insight. It probably gets deeper into doctrine than you can initially imagine, but I will attempt to give you a basic answer.
The short answer to your question is: No, Jesus did not inherit the sin nature from Adam.
Jesus came to succeed where Adam failed. Jesus is called the "last Adam" (1 Corinthians 15:45) and the "second man" (1 Corinthians 15:47). Jesus testified that He came "to seek and to save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10). What was lost in Adam was to be won in Jesus Christ. However, in order to do this, he only needed to start where Adam started, not where he ended.
Much of the purpose of the virgin birth was to allow Jesus to be fully human but without the Adamic nature.
Joseph was "the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ" (Matthew 1:16).
Joseph was not the father of Jesus. Jesus did not receive the sinful nature of Joseph.
However, He was born in the natural body and in the full likeness of sinful flesh. Romans 8:3 states, "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh."
He was born in the flesh, but the inner sin nature was not His nature. He was only born in the "likeness" of sinful flesh.
Which you don't want to confess--
If He had had a sin nature, John could not have said of Him, "in him is no sin" (1 John 3:5) and Paul could not have spoken of Him as the one "who knew no sin" (2 Corinthians 5:21).
Did Jesus Have a Sin Nature? | Learn The Bible | LearnTheBible.org
Was Jesus born with a sin nature? How can it be truly said of Him that He was tempted in every way that we are if He didn't inherit the sin nature from Mary? What makes it so remarkable that He didn't sin if He wasn't even born with the sin nature?
www.learnthebible.org
End of dialogue.
Johann.
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