The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus

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face2face

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Jospehus writes:

In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore- determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment, as having been the causes of defilement; while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined.

I'm not sure what to make of this.

I get the usual nonsense about the Lake of Fire and how they attach non Biblical notions to it, but what does this mean "These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined"

Thoughts?
 

Robert Gwin

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"There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.

So the parable starts with a rich man wearing purple clothing so the imagery immediately takes our minds to the priestly garments in Exodus 28:2,5:

Have them use gold, and blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and fine linen.

The Parable scene is set with the Religious elite firmly in focus.

It also contains an echo of the Apostate Church in Revelation 18:12,16 (parables can have present day applications)

View attachment 32468

Notice the sting in Christ's comment regarding them feasting "everyday"...what do you think he was referring to?
Very good explanation Face, great research presented understandably.
 

strepho

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Luke chapter 16 analogy of Richman and Lazarus. The Richman was spirtualty bankrupt, dead works, pride, self gratification. Lazarus was pure and pious. Lazarus died and went to paradise. The Richman went to hell, called sheol or Hades. Its holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked. Thiers gulf that separates paradise and sheol. Hebrews chapter 6. Weeds, thorns, will choke out the word of God. Those who listen or teach tradition of men, are spirtualty bankrupt and have dead works. Pride, self gratification, self centered, selfishness is demonic. Get the picture. False doctrine and pride is of the devil. Those who follow after the flesh and false doctrine are children of darkness. Those who endure sound doctrine and are pious are children of light. Jesus tells us in Matthew chapter 5. That our righteousness better exceed that of the pharisees, or will not enter kingdom of God. Get the picture. Piety is the key.
 

face2face

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It's important to stress by looking at Josephus's beliefs on Hades; Spirits; Heaven etc we are getting insight into Judaism which had fallen away from the Torah and God's truth revealed through the prophets.

Josephus writes:

For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate we believe there stands an archangel with an host; which gate when those pass through that are conducted down by the angels appointed over souls, they do not go the same way; but the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of the good things they see, and rejoice in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are any briers there; but the countenance of the and of the just, which they see, always smiles them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.

My wordy word, can you believe the Jews managed to construct such beliefs from the Torah and the Prophets? The Bible is absolutely silent on everything Josephus believed concerning the death state and the promise of the land by God to Abraham, which still remains unfulfilled to this day.

As we work through his words, I believe we will see just how masterful the Lords parable was to the Jews in Luke 16. Even the most cynical of our members will see how the Lord Jesus Christ used their false beliefs to construct a parable which stands in judgement them.

Also notice this "This place "we" call The Bosom of Abraham"

I'm wondering how many here will see the depth of that above statement in relation to Luke 16 - How many of you knew this was the Jews belief and how many understand Jesus' intent in applying their own beliefs against them

Historical works can certainly shine a bright light on Scripture.

I'm a big advocate of reading the cultural and historical context into the Word of God.

F2F
 
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MatthewG

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have you done a study yourself @face2face ? He grew up in a family of preist and learned all about the old testament. He wasnt a believer in Jesus though.
 

MatthewG

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I dont remeber how much this book cost.

image.jpg
 

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face2face

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This term which Jesus uses "Bosom of Abraham", is highly insightful, as its only referenced in one place in all Scripture!

In rabbinic writings this is a very common term, but the Scriptures it is found only in Luke 16:22–23:

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham’s Bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Clearly this is evidence of two note worthy things; 1. Jesus knew the traditions and customs of the Jews 2. He was able to relate this term in a parable which those Jews would clearly discern as being aimed squarely at them.

There are six false teachings which the Jews formulated in exactly the same way Catholicism has formulated teachings on Mary.

First: Abraham’s Bosom is for righteous ones only; there are no unrighteous ones in Abraham’s Bosom.
Second: it is located adjacent to Hell. It is not in Hell, but is located adjacent to Hell, so that those in Hell, like the rich man, are able to see what is going on in Abraham’s Bosom, though they have no way of getting there.
Third: while Hell and Abraham’s Bosom are next to each other, they are separated by an impassable gulf. Although each side can see the other and those in them can converse with each other, they can not cross over from one to the other.
Fourth: Abraham’s Bosom is that portion of Sheol or Hades which was a place for the righteous, whereas Hell was the place for the unrighteous humans.
Fifth: the term “Abraham’s Bosom” is a figure of speech describing a guest at a feast, reclining on the breast of his neighbor. Just as in the Gospel of John, John was reclining at Jesus’ bosom at the Feast of Passover, this is what Lazarus was doing in Abraham’s Bosom. This is a figure of speech of a guest at a feast, reclining on the breast of his neighbor or his host.
Sixth: Abraham’s Bosom symbolized blessedness after death. While Lazarus did not do well when he was living as far as the material world was concerned, after death he was indeed in a state of blessedness.

F2F
 

face2face

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Part 4.

Josephus wrote:

But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence; to whom are sent the angels appointed over them to reproach them and threaten them with their terrible looks, and to thrust them still downwards. Now those angels that are set over these souls drag them into the neighborhood of hell itself; who, when they are hard by it, continually hear the noise of it, and do not stand clear of the hot vapor itself; but when they have a near view of this spectacle, as of a terrible and exceeding great prospect of fire, they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place [or choir] of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it.


The accuracy of the Lord's knowledge of their traditions is far greater than we could ever have imagined. You will recall from a child Jesus was sitting with the elders listening to their musings, and doubtless retained all of their "so called knowledge", but was in fact just the foolishness of men. There isn't another Scripture anywhere in the Bible that conjures up such mythical imaginations as these writings of Josephus.

I would go so far to say one cannot interpret Luke 16 without first reading the works of Josephus on this subject.

F2F
 

face2face

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Part 5. This is the discourse concerning Hades, wherein the souls of all men are confined until a proper season, which God hath determined, when he will make a resurrection of all men from the dead, not procuring a transmigration of souls from one body to another, but raising again those very bodies, which you Greeks, seeing to be dissolved, do not believe [their resurrection]. But learn not to disbelieve it; for while you believe that the soul is created, and yet is made immortal by God, according to the doctrine of Plato, and this in time, be not incredulous; but believe that God is able, when he hath raised to life that body which was made as a compound of the same elements, to make it immortal; for it must never be said of God, that he is able to do some things, and unable to do others. We have therefore believed that the body

According to the doctrine of Plato!
It's astounding how Judaism and Christianity have been influenced by philosophers down through the ages.
I'm sure most conscientious Christians after examining these beliefs of Josephus and the Pharisees of his time and would now read Luke 16:19 with an entirely different focus.
Surely?
 

rwb

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Phenomenal language you say! Sounds like you are describing a parable! :contemplate:


No, they should be dealt with regardless how uncomfrotable they are to answer.


If you suggest the Bible teaches consciousness post death, teach away! But dont use Luke 16 - hands off that text it is miles away from immortal soulism.

Can you show an ethereal Spirit living after a person dies in the Bible?

Hmmmm.

While I agree the body that dies whether with or without the Spirit of Christ within them, that body none-the-less is a corpse! Why? Because the spirit given to every living, breathing creature returns to God after the body dies. So, yes, I agree the corpse of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob like every other physical corpse returns to the earth when the body breathes its last.

But that is not the end for men/women who die with the Spirit from Christ within them. Christ tells us that when we live and believe in Him we shall never die. In fact Christ says the life we receive through Him is eternal life. He says this knowing our bodies are all destined to death. But when we have eternal life through Christ, though our outward body becomes a corpse, our spirit returns to God who gave it.

John 14:16 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Galatians 6:8 (KJV) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit that gives life to our mortal body will become a lifeless corpse when our breath of life (spirit) returns to God after death. Will the spirit in man have the Spirit from Christ still in them when they physically die, or will the spirit given to every human return to God in heaven without life? Many verses found in Scripture show man is far more then a mortal shell dust of the earth. There is still spiritual eternal life after physical death, if the spirit of man returns to God indwelt with the life-giving Spirit from Christ.

I believe the PARABLE of Lazarus and the rich man also proves this. I believe both you and Faith Will Do have shown how the PARABLE should be understood. Jesus is teaching, using symbolic or factious narrative to show us the way He has called us to live our lives by loving others more than ourselves or anything of the world. In this Christ promises eternal life to all who believe Him, and condemnation and suffering for those who do evil and remain in unbelief.
 

rwb

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Actually, those who believe in the immortal soul might be able to provide some Scripture to support this idea of a Spiritual Body with fingers toes, tongue etc needing a rotten corpse to reunite with?

Spirit is defined - a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:—ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind.

At creation God tells us He created man's body from the dust of the earth and then He breathed life (spirit) into them, and the body with spirit became a living soul. By the definition we learn our spirit is the rational soul within mankind. It is then through our spirit that we possess a mind and the ability to think and learn. In addition our mind that is our spirit gives life to every part and organ of our body. When our body becomes a corpse, our spirit is still alive if we have within us the Holy Spirit. It is through Christ's Spirit in us that after death of our body we go alive to heaven to become as are the angels in heaven living (spirit, because that is how life is defined) soul. We are no longer complete living souls as we were before our body died, but we are still living souls in heaven, and many verses, especially found in Revelation show there is life after death for the saints who died in faith. That's why it's so hard to differentiate between spirit in man and soul which man is. We can be a living soul, a spiritual body (1Cor 15:44) in heaven after our mortal body dies if in life we have been born again through His Spirit in us. Our mortal body will not have life again until the bodily resurrection of ALL the dead in an hour that is coming when the last trumpet begins to sound.
 

rwb

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Christ will do this spiritual work of conversion within all mankind before the final age ends. In this age, Christ is only converting His chosen Elect. They are blessed, not because of anything they have ever done to deserve it, but simply because it satisfies God's plans and purposes for mankind.

This is not true! Scripture makes abundantly clear that whosoever dies in unbelief shall be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death. If it were true that all of mankind will be converted to Christ before this age ends, it would be a great lie to teach that mankind will be judged according to what is found written in the books and the book of life, and whosoever is not found in the book of life shall suffer the second death, which means they will never be alive again.
 
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rwb

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Not a popular belief here... but its truth!

Of course soul sleep is unbiblical! How could the saints be living souls in heaven, if after our body dies, we are not spiritual bodies alive in heaven?

In a vision John is given to know of souls alive in heaven after they physically died. Because in life before they died during time John writes a thousand years, they lived (past tense) and reigned (past tense) with Christ. For these dead to be called souls there must be life, but the life they have is not in body but spirit (breath of life; mind). When there is a living soul there is life, but in heaven spirits without physical bodies.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 

FaithWillDo

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This is not true! Scripture makes abundantly clear that whosoever dies in unbelief shall be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death. If it were true that all of mankind will be converted to Christ before this age ends, it would be a great lie to teach that mankind will be judged according to what is found written in the books and the book of life, and whosoever is not found in the book of life shall suffer the second death, which means they will never be alive again.
Dear rwb,
The Lake of Fire is a symbol which represents the judgment of Christ. It is not literal fire nor is it eternal. Christ's judgment lasts only as long as it takes for Him to achieve His desired results.

Here is why Christ judges mankind:

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.


Because mankind must be judged to be converted into a child of God, Christ longed to start that process within mankind:

Luke 12:49 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

All mankind must be judged to be saved:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the HOLY SPIRIT AND WITH FIRE: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Conversion requires both the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of Fire. Without them, we cannot be saved.

Mankind thinks that the purpose of judgment is only to punish, torment or destroy but Christ uses judgment to save us and to teach us His righteousness.

Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

Your understanding of the judgment of Christ is not accurate. Christ loves mankind and He came to save us. It is solely His work to accomplish and it is not dependent upon mankind's work. When Christ is ready to save a person, He will come to them and give them the Holy Spirit. When Christ does this spiritual work within them, they will accept Jesus as "Lord". Salvation does not happen any other way.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe this verse above? No person can accept Jesus as their Lord UNLESS they have the Holy Spirit. This is true because mankind in our created spiritual state cannot know Christ nor will anyone even seek Him out:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Because of mankind's "marred" created condition, Christ MUST act first by giving us the Spirit. If He does not do this work, a person cannot be saved. Mankind's salvation is totally up to Christ and because He loves us all, He will give us all the free gift of the Spirit at a time of His choosing - a time that satisfies His own purposes and not ours.

In this age, Christ is ONLY saving His First Firsts (the Elect). They were chosen for this honor before the ages began. No one else will be saved in this age. In the final age (what I call the Lake of Fire age), the Elect will be used by Christ to help Him bring in the full harvest of mankind. Only then can God be "all in all" (1Cor 15:28).

Consider what Joel chapter 2 teaches.

The setting of the chapter is the final age (the "Lake of Fire" age). Christ's army in the first part of the chapter represents the Elect who are reigning with Him in judgment over the lost. The lost are being judged by the Law which requires their death (the true penalty of sin). But before they perish, verse 18 says that Christ will pity his people and (v. 23) give them the Early and Latter Rains. With the Early and Latter Rains, the people who are being judged will be "born again". After they are "born again", their judgment will continue until their old spiritual nature is destroyed. Once it is, they will be converted just as the Elect were converted in this age. This is the only way mankind is saved. The old vessel must be destroyed so that the new vessel can be made:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

This verse below tells why Christ has pity (mercy) upon the lost in the final age who are being judged by the Law:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Even though the “lost” of the final age are being judged by the Law which requires their deaths, Christ will NOT forget the "weightier matters of the Law" which are judgment, mercy and faith. Before the "lost" perish, Christ will make them into a new creation, one that has never sinned. That new creation is a child of God.

After Christ has completed His work, mankind will cease to exist but the Kingdom of Heaven will be that much fuller.

This is the true Gospel of Christ.

The gospel which the apostate churches of the world teach is the one Paul warned about that would be coming:

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

This "another gospel" is not "good news" for the world - it is a nightmare which never ends.

Like the Pharisees, your beliefs are leaving out the weightier matters of the Law which are judgment, mercy and faith - but Christ will not forget them.

Joe
 
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amigo de christo

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This is not true! Scripture makes abundantly clear that whosoever dies in unbelief shall be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death. If it were true that all of mankind will be converted to Christ before this age ends, it would be a great lie to teach that mankind will be judged according to what is found written in the books and the book of life, and whosoever is not found in the book of life shall suffer the second death, which means they will never be alive again.
YES IT SURELY DO . The scrips make it very plain . And many have forgotten the warning
about ADDING TOO or taking from that prophecy . Many will face the lake of fire they tried so hard to omit .
This gen desires not the true Christ nor His gospel anymore . THEY holler , AWAY with the biblical JESUS and His gospel
GOD IS LOVE ALL WILL BE SAVED . Satan sure is a crafity one . He has many convinced
to follow him and his version of a love and of a hope that will save none and condemn all who followed it .
WE BETTER STICK to the ORIGINAL GOSPEL and hold firm to all biblical sound doctrine . Many aint gonna make it .
MANY will not make it . Its on them , they were warned but they willfully chose to close the eyes
and to hear only the voice of the dark one who sold out a love that could not save and gave a hope
thats end is perdition .
 
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amigo de christo

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The road to the lake of fire is all inclusive and welcomes many
but the way to GOD is FOUND IN CHRIST ALONE . FAITH IN HE ALONE . BELIEVE YE IN HIM .
 
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amigo de christo

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This is not true! Scripture makes abundantly clear that whosoever dies in unbelief shall be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death. If it were true that all of mankind will be converted to Christ before this age ends, it would be a great lie to teach that mankind will be judged according to what is found written in the books and the book of life, and whosoever is not found in the book of life shall suffer the second death, which means they will never be alive again.
Who so ever makes void the truth , that soul will not prosper . For though hand join in hand and many unite
under a love that cannot save , THE WICKED WILL NOT GO UNPUNISHED .
WE BESS STICK TO THE BIBLE my friend . Many are not gonna make it . MANY . The road to hell is very broad
and its ever inclusive and welcomes many and chants a song that many can dance too . FOR its a song
that has given the wicked a false hope . A pipe dream of the piper who has come to steal the hearts of men
under the guise that IT IS GOD and offers unto the world darkness . marvel not . FOR satan is darkness
and yet can appear as an angel of light . satan knows how to use words like love , freedom , tolerance ,
unity and etc , BUT His version of said words will lead one only unto greater darkness , a darkness so great
and yet they will call it light . BUT IF THE LIGHT that is in thee be darkness , HOW GREAT that DARKNESS IS .
ITS TIME to keep it real . MANY are following the voice of what THEY THINK IS GOD , THEY THINK IS LOVE
THEY THINK IS HOPE , THEY THINK IS SALVATION . To them it simply is GOD they believe they hear .
But to to the lambs it is no other than the dragon who by the wisdom of the world is decieving men into greater darkness .
 
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