Is there a difference in " FALSE " teaching & error in teaching ?

[Mr E]

i believe that your explanation given in Post #110 was spot on and covered all the angles.

Now, if we yield ourselves unto the LORD/Holy Spirit by application and embrace whatever the outcome it brings us to, then much of the 'debates' would fade away as the Day would become brighter and more peaceful in our hearts.

Praying for you and your leg situation. They’ll probably put you on thinners.

So often when it comes to theological issues we develop a kind of defense mechanism perhaps without even realizing we do so. I think this is a natural reaction given the implications involved when we are finally willing to confront the text and yield to it at the expense of our notions (beliefs) about the text.

We go from —“that can’t be true because that would mean…..” (fill in the blanks) to—-“IF that is true, then….” and we become willing to surrender our ideas to the text, consequences be hung. Accepting certain things will necessitate the demise of certain others.

And it’s hard.

 

[Enoch111]

Did JESUS say what HE meant or other?

There's nothing ambiguous in that passage which confirms that the Second Coming of Christ will be after several major and catastrophic and cataclysmic cosmic events. Following that He will send His angels to gather the believing elect remnant of Israel from around the world.

 

[Mr E]

@Mr E, there are surely different ways people take things, like if a person is a biblical literalist and takes everything to be literal, they may even literally gouge their eye out, or actually cut off their hand, because Jesus said so. So there is a difference between being completely literal, and thinking about spiritual principles.

They exist in theory, but not in practice. A literalist will choose a literal understanding when it suits them and “literally” reject the literal meaning, when it doesn’t.

 

[MatthewG]

Oh, some crazy cults out there have done some weird stuff, no doubt or question, 8 billion in the world, some hands and eyes have got cut off along with sacrifices also the way. Need to drink some blood, or eat some flesh. Strange bizzaro. Yes, the problematic(s) exist.

 

[MatthewG]

Even strange things like Word of Faith movements,

Or things like - manifesting your destiny.

There are all kinds of worldly takings that mess up the message of the spirit, and looking above and not the things on earth.

 

[ewq1938]

@amadeus @amigo de christo @Keturah @Christophany @ewq1938 @Johann

Please pray as i am heading to the Emergency Room right now since my right leg is swelling.

My father died from A pulmonary embolism due to swelling in his leg.

Prayers sent to God.

 

[Robert Gwin]

"the Word was a god"

Very true, one of the many. That is why it is important to know who the God is that the Word was with.

 

[amadeus]

Good thread. And you hit the target by differentiating above-- what it says versus what it means. That is the hill upon which the battle is fought. Because most people can read and also because we all have many translation tools available to us, including the ability to examine the original languages and search out the meaning of the words used-- there is actually very little disagreement on the question of what the text says. Right? I mean, ten people should be able to read a passage of scripture and 10/10 can agree on what it says. That's rarely the issue.

On the question of what it means-- that's the hill folks die on. They will argue that black is white until they are blue in the face-- because they choose to believe something they were taught in that regard, or because of some idea they came up with on their own that completely denies what the text clearly states. You see it all the time. Folks agree on what it says-- they just don't believe or accept what it says and they trade what it says for what they think it must mean. Another slippery slope on this same hill has people pounding a stake in the ground on something the stake says while ignoring the meaning of what it says. They accept what it says, but they misinterpret what it means and by doing so they actually miss what it says in the process. They believe what it says, but they don't understand what it says, so they apply their own understanding to what it says. "Lean not" the proverb advises.




If someone is "going against" what the text directly says-- that's a problem for sure. I could give examples where everyone on this forum would do that. The text would say something and every single person here would say-- 'that's not what it means.' And I'd say- 'But that's what it says' and they would stomp their feet and say- 'But but but.... it doesn't apply' or 'What it says doesn't mean what it says.'

It's really that awful. How can it be, or how did it get that bad? I think you nail again when you point out that the errors come from bad teaching. They've been told that -it can't mean what it says- and so they go with that idea.... denying the very words of scripture they think they hold so dearly to. Rather than challenge their own thinking that clearly disagrees with the text, they will vehemently oppose any idea that actually agrees with the text, because they've already predetermined that the text MUST be wrong. It's the saddest thing. They'd rather die on that hill themselves and ignore the one who planted his stake in the ground and died on it for the misunderstandings of all.

How is it that people fail to understand the parables of Jesus?

Mt 13:10	And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mt 13:11	He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Mt 13:12

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Mt 13:16

But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Whose eyes are these eyes, the ones that see and ears, the ones that hear?

Re 3:18

I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Mt 13:43

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[Enoch111]

How is it that people fail to understand the proverbs of Jesus?

I believe you meant parables. The parables are designed to reveal the mysteries of the Kingdom of God only to those who can spiritually discern their meaning. Those who do not believe on Christ will not understand them. Nor will they understand many other things.

 

[amadeus]

I believe you meant parables. The parables are designed to reveal the mysteries of the Kingdom of God only to those who can spiritually discern their meaning. Those who do not believe on Christ will not understand them. Nor will they understand many other things.

Thank you for the correction. I edited my post accordingly.

 

[amigo de christo]

@amadeus @amigo de christo @Keturah @Christophany @ewq1938 @Johann

Please pray as i am heading to the Emergency Room right now since my right leg is swelling.

My father died from A pulmonary embolism due to swelling in his leg.

okay my friend .

 

[Mr E]

Thank you for the correction. I edited my post accordingly.

Whew! I'm sure people were so confused by that.



You might have said-- How is it that people fail to understand the stories Jesus made up?

That's the nature of a parable. It's fictitious. He invents a scenario and a narrative in order to make a point on one hand, while on the other hand he creates an association that no one would understand apart from having 'the key' to what those associations mean. In the example you reference, he's talking about seeds of course, but he's not really talking about seeds at all.

Mt 13:16

But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Whose eyes are these eyes, the ones that see and ears, the ones that hear?

Blessed are YOUR eyes, and YOUR ears. He was speaking to those to whom he explained that key, to understanding. To those to whom he explained those associations. In private, he said-

Then the disciples came to him and said, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” He replied, “You have been given the opportunity to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but they have not.

And through his words recorded in scripture, we have been given the same opportunity. So when he says "you" he really does mean you. And me. And everyone who wants to understand and who seek to understand. The sad fact is... most people don't. So they miss it. They dismiss it. They deny it and denounce it.

They should study it and really dig into it......... but they don't.

 

[amadeus]

Whew! I'm sure people were so confused by that.

View attachment 33108

You might have said-- How is it that people fail to understand the stories Jesus made up?

Similar then perhaps to that is his-story [history] by which men supposedly record happenings in the past for those in the current day or in the future to read. How accurate are those written histories? How true are they? Does it not depend upon the both the sincerity of the heart of the recorder and the correctness of his sources?

That's the nature of a parable. It's fictitious. He invents a scenario and a narrative in order to make a point on one hand, while on the other hand he creates an association that no one would understand apart from having 'the key' to what those associations mean. In the example you reference, he's talking about seeds of course, but he's not really talking about seeds at all.

Fictitious perhaps when compared to an accurate his-story but consider the source of what Jesus' parables. Did they not contain the Truth indeed?

Blessed are YOUR eyes, and YOUR ears. He was speaking to those to whom he explained that key, to understanding. To those to whom he explained those associations. In private, he said-

Then the disciples came to him and said, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” He replied, “You have been given the opportunity to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but they have not.

And through his words recorded in scripture, we have been given the same opportunity. So when he says "you" he really does mean you. And me. And everyone who wants to understand and who seek to understand. The sad fact is... most people don't. So they miss it. They dismiss it. They deny it and denounce it.

They should study it and really dig into it......... but they don't.

Jesus gave the parables for his close followers. He also gave the interpretations for them. He was the eyes and ears for True believers following him in the flesh 2000 years ago.

Today for those reading or hearing the words of the Bible, does not the Holy Spirit give the interpretation to those not quenching the Spirit to preserve their own preconceived notions or private interpretations?

Solomon explains the situation a thousand years before Jesus was born in Bethlehem:

Pr 16:2

All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.

Pr 21:2

Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts

Where then is the Interpreter that is the Comforter?

Ec 4:1

So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

Joh 14:26

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

And therefore the importance of Paul's admonition:

1th 5:19

Quench not the Spirit.

 

[amigo de christo]

There's nothing ambiguous in that passage which confirms that the Second Coming of Christ will be after several major and catastrophic and cataclysmic cosmic events. Following that He will send His angels to gather the believing elect remnant of Israel from around the world.

 

[amigo de christo]

Very true, one of the many. That is why it is important to know who the God is that the Word was with.

 

[amigo de christo]

@amadeus @amigo de christo @Keturah @Christophany @ewq1938 @Johann

Please pray as i am heading to the Emergency Room right now since my right leg is swelling.

My father died from A pulmonary embolism due to swelling in his leg.

 

[Mr E]

Similar then perhaps to that is his-story [history] by which men supposedly record happenings in the past for those in the current day or in the future to read. How accurate are those written histories? How true are they? Does it not depend upon the both the sincerity of the heart of the recorder and the correctness of his sources?

True. The story is only as good as the teller, and if the teller is really good-- the story can't be trusted at all. That might seem like an oxymoron, but as with all-- only seemingly contradictory. A good story teller always ends with-- "True story." Does saying so, make it so?

Fictitious perhaps when compared to an accurate his-story but consider the source of what Jesus' parables. Did they not contain the Truth indeed?

Similarly, a 'made up' story can indeed be a true story. It can be entirely ficticious and entirely true and this is the case with literary devices like allegory, parable, metaphor, and yes- even proverbs... moreso when as with parable, there is double-entendre.

Jesus gave the parables for his close followers. He also gave the interpretations for them. He was the eyes and ears for True believers following him in the flesh 2000 years ago.

Today for those reading or hearing the words of the Bible, does not the Holy Spirit give the interpretation to those not quenching the Spirit to preserve their own preconceived notions or private interpretations?

Not really. He didn't give "interpretations" at all. He gave explanations. There's a difference. He said- 'this' means 'that.'

That's not interpreting what he sees with his eyes, that's making the associations for us so we can see with our own eyes. No interpretation needed. He creates a key for you and it's pure algebra where: x + 6 = 11 (solve for x) and you know x = 5 and now for the rest of the page remember that x = 5. When you see another equation like 15/x you can easily understand and you don't need any interpreter because he already told you that x=5.

15/x = 3. All the spirit does is remind you that he said x = 5. That reminder eliminates all need for anyone else to tell you what he meant. It eliminates all of the self-appointed teachers and preachers who carry their little soapboxes to various street-corners to proclaim some higher walk/understanding that they have interpreted from the scriptures.

Jesus said--

"The one who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. The doorkeeper opens the door for him, and the sheep hear his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought all his own sheep out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they recognize his voice. They will never follow a stranger, but will run away from him because they do not recognize the stranger’s voice.”

This too, was a parable that they didn't understand. The spirit you speak of is his voice. It's the word of God.

Where then is the Interpreter that is the Comforter?

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Again-- no interpreter.

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

He will testify and remind you of what you witnessed with your own eyes and heard with your own ears.

 

[amadeus]

True. The story is only as good as the teller, and if the teller is really good-- the story can't be trusted at all. That might seem like an oxymoron, but as with all-- only seemingly contradictory. A good story teller always ends with-- "True story." Does saying so, make it so?



Similarly, a 'made up' story can indeed be a true story. It can be entirely ficticious and entirely true and this is the case with literary devices like allegory, parable, metaphor, and yes- even proverbs... moreso when as with parable, there is double-entendre.



Not really. He didn't give "interpretations" at all. He gave explanations. There's a difference. He said- 'this' means 'that.'

That's not interpreting what he sees with his eyes, that's making the associations for us so we can see with our own eyes. No interpretation needed. He creates a key for you and it's pure algebra where: x + 6 = 11 (solve for x) and you know x = 5 and now for the rest of the page remember that x = 5. When you see another equation like 15/x you can easily understand and you don't need any interpreter because he already told you that x=5.

15/x = 3. All the spirit does is remind you that he said x = 5. That reminder eliminates all need for anyone else to tell you what he meant. It eliminates all of the self-appointed teachers and preachers who carry their little soapboxes to various street-corners to proclaim some higher walk/understanding that they have interpreted from the scriptures.

Jesus said--

"The one who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. The doorkeeper opens the door for him, and the sheep hear his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought all his own sheep out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they recognize his voice. They will never follow a stranger, but will run away from him because they do not recognize the stranger’s voice.”

This too, was a parable that they didn't understand. The spirit you speak of is his voice. It's the word of God.




But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Again-- no interpreter.

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

He will testify and remind you of what you witnessed with your own eyes and heard with your own ears.

Some people really are blind to the things of God. May they not hope that Jesus will pass by willing to answer their request for sight or?

Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

 

[Mr E]

Some people really are blind to the things of God. May they not hope that Jesus will pass by willing to answer their request for sight or?

Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

He said-

"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

For some, the word that became flesh was the lamp that lit the path. For others, the light was blinding.

 

[MatthewG]

@David in NJ