The Covering Dynamic

[David in NJ]

Post the verses, let's see what they say.

Much love!

Do you understand this?

Hebrews ch10
And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

15But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,

16“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
18Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

19Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,
21and having a High Priest over the house of God,
22let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
24And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,
25not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

 

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You don't appear to know who Israel that shall be saved are???

Have a blessed day!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Arnt we all Israelites according to

No we aren't.

But if you think these verses say otherwise, why not post the passage, with some context, and indicate the part that says that we who are gentiles are also Israelites. Would you like to do that?

Much love!

 

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They were already given to you from Hebrews ch8 = make sure you get the Point

Now this is the main point of the things we are saying:
We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

3For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

What part there says that God's word through Jeremiah is forgotten? Won't be fulfilled? I think God keeps His Word.

Much love!

 

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Do you understand this?

Well, I've read and studied this passage for a long time. Whether I really understand it is for God to say, I suppose!

Meanwhile, is there something here that says to you Jeremiah's words will not be fulfilled according to the context in which he prophesied?

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Very true, and in the rapture there is nothing that says He does this in front of the world.

Uh, uh, uh..., nowhere in God's Word is it written that Jesus raptures out His Church 'in secret', which is what your statement above in bold is suggesting per a false pre-trib rapture theory.

Notice verse 30 below especially...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

So who told you that at Christ's future coming He won't be seen coming "in front of the world"?? Even in Rev.1 we are told that "every eye" shall see Him coming in the clouds! So who has bewitched you away from those Scriptures?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If the interpretation is not in Scripture, then the interpretations offered are your own opinions and lack Scriptural authority. Do you consider that to be true?

Is there a problem with having an opinion? Are we not allowed to have an interpretation of scripture unless it is explicitly interpreted in scripture for us? That would mean we should not have an interpretation of the beast with seven heads and ten horns since we are not told explicitly what it represents. Is that what you think, that no one should have an opinion on what the beast represents or on anything else that is not explicitly explained for us?

Is spiritual discernment a concept that you don't believe in even though Paul said we need spiritual discernment to understand scripture (1 Cor 2:9-16)?

 

[Davy]

Do you know why? Because when Christ comes at the Resurrection/Rapture He DOES NOT return to earth. He comes "in the air" and immediately returns to Heaven. So that is not a coming as described in His Second Coming (Rev 1:7).

Christ first revealed the truth of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture just before His crucifixion, and prior to that in His parables. Then Paul spoke about it many times, and the apostolic churches expected Christ to come for His saints within their lifetimes. The reason being that the Rapture was always an imminent event -- unexpected and unannounced (unlike the Second Coming).

Nope... Zechariah 14 reveals Christ's feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, on earth, and brings all His elect saints with Him there. And that is about the time of the gathering to Him. 1 Thess.4 does not give that detail, nor the timing. But Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 does give the timing of Christ's coming to gather His saints, which is after the tribulation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What makes you think that they didn't believe those passsages? Of course they did! It's people today who do not. Witness this thread!

I didn't say they didn't believe them. Read what I actually say instead of reading things into what I say. My point is that there is nothing in the NT to support your interpretations of those OT passages. That tells me that the NT authors did not have the same understanding of those OT passages as you do. Why else can you not find anything in the NT to support your doctrine?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You aren't really responding to these passages though. It's not like when you post this one, the other one doesn't mean anything any more.

You just quoted a passage without any commentary and so did he. Somehow it's okay for you to do that, but not him? The reality is that it's pointless to just post scriptures without any commentary as if someone is just going to know the reason you posted it without any explanation.

 

[marks]

Why else can you not find anything in the NT to support your doctrine?

I find it to be in harmony with the NT passages and in particular the NT prophecies. Which do you think disagree?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Does anyone here believe this passage as written?

This is just a silly question. Is all scripture meant to be interpreted "as written"? Is all scripture literal and straightforward text? You seem to think that is the case, but it clearly is not the case.

 

[Davy]

Do you really think that if someone is walking with the Lord, and studies His Word, but doesn't believe in a pre-trib rapture, that they would not be a part of it because they didn't believe in it? I thought you guys thought that all Christians would be taken. So are you saying that if someone doesn't believe in a pretrib rapture, they are going to have to suffer here through tribulation, and that the pretrib teaching is essential to become a Christian in the first place?
I thought it was "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved", not believe on the pretrib rapture as well as the Lord, and thou shalt be saved.

You should pray for the health of your brethren, friends and families,those who you want to coe to Christ, and that the Gospel shall be preached to all the world. Do you not pray for your brethren as a norm?

What Lord Jesus showed about the time of His coming to gather His saints in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 pretty well seals it for me.

But pre-tribbers are wrongly taught to disregard what Jesus showed there, that His coming to gather His saints is AFTER the tribulation. Pre-tribbers are simply told that Scripture wasn't given for them, but for the Jews. And they believe men's false doctrine hook-line-a-sinker.

That also means those on man's false pre-trib rapture theory have also sealed their fate by rejecting... what Lord Jesus Himself said, in favor of a false doctrine of men, the very thing Lord Jesus also warned us with beware of the leaven of men's traditions.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I find it to be in harmony with the NT passages and in particular the NT prophecies. Which do you think disagree?

I've already said that your belief in future animal sacrifices contradicts what is written in NT scripture such as Hebrews 8-10. Your belief of God having 2 separate people groups that He calls His own (Israel and the church) is not supported by NT scripture. Also, your belief in mortal survivors of the second coming of Christ contradicts NT scriptures like 1 Corinthians 15:50-54, Matthew 24:35-39 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

 

[David in NJ]

What part there says that God's word through Jeremiah is forgotten? Won't be fulfilled? I think God keeps His Word.

Much love!

Gospels, Acts, Hebrews and Revelation all say that it was fulfilled.

 

[marks]

Is there a problem with having an opinion?

Of course everyone has opinions. I just think we need to be clear on what the Bible says, and what is our opinion of what it means.

When it says, "another great sign in heaven", there's a good indicator that what's coming is a symbol or metaphor for something else. John saw a great red dragon, and not much later tells us this dragon is Satan himself. So we know it's a sign, and we know what the sign means, and those with Biblical authority.

Is spiritual discernment a concept that you don't believe in even though Paul said we need spiritual discernment to understand scripture (1 Cor 2:9-16)?

Hm. What do you suppose my answer to this question is? Are you asking me if I believe in being spiritually obtuse?

Let me ask you this. Do you suppose that your spiritual discernment will ever contradict the Scriptures? Or will your spiritual discernment show you the fullness of the meaning of the words you read, while not cancelling them or contradicting them? Instead showing how there are no contradictions, and everything can be fully harmonized in all it's plainness?

Centuries ago, people couldn't understand how Israel could ever be a Jewish homeland again, and discounted those passages that show Israel repopulated by God's chosen nation. And that continues to be a pattern today, even though we see Jerusalem taking postion for the beast to come against the Jews there.

Gog and Magog will invade the mountains of Israel, a nation preserved by God, now living in their homeland again - even according to the blessings and cursings of their covenant with God. And when Jesus comes, His angels will regather all the remaining Jews to their promised land, exactly as He promised.

I can't find a single passage in the NT that tells me this is not to be believed, and many that harmonize with it.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What I said was . . . this is what the passages says. What is the reason why we should read it some other way?

Because not all scripture is literal and straightforward. Some of the scriptures you interpret in a literal and straightforward way causes contradictions with other scripture and I've already explained that in relation to Zechariah 14:16-21, for example.

You respond, "here you go with your "exact words" . . .". OK. Do you have a problem with reading a passage the ways its written, and must arbitrarily change it into something else? Or do you have a reason?

If I don't take a passage in the book of Revelation about the beast with seven heads and ten horns literally am I changing it into something else? Do you ever remember anything I tell you? I've said multiple times that reading a passage like Zechariah 14:16-21 in a literal, futurist way results in contradicting other scripture. And you're still asking if I have a reason for not interpreting it literally?

You must have a reason, right? So what it is?

I've already explained this several times. Why do you still not know?

What gives you the Biblical authority to read a passage, like in Zechariah 14, and declare it's not actually destribing the actual things that will happen?

Because if they did they would contradict other scripture. As I've already told you several times. Do you actually read what I tell you or not? If you do, then do you just forget right away?

 

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I've already said that your belief in future animal sacrifices contradicts what is written in NT scripture such as Hebrews 8-10.

And I've already said that the sin offering is fulfilled in Christ, yet there remain fellowship and thanksgiving offerings. Can we not repeat ground we've already covered?

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Well, I've read and studied this passage for a long time. Whether I really understand it is for God to say, I suppose!

Meanwhile, is there something here that says to you Jeremiah's words will not be fulfilled according to the context in which he prophesied?

Much love!

Gospels, Acts, Hebrews and Revelation all say that it was fulfilled.

If you cannot SEE that JESUS fulfilled Jeremiah ch31 'New Covenant' then your mind has a covering over it placed there by false teachers.

Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

 

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Gospels, Acts, Hebrews and Revelation all say that it was fulfilled.

Show a passage, and indicate the place, please.

Much love!