The Covering Dynamic

[Spiritual Israelite]

I declare Jeremiah is Spirit Inspired and his prophecies will be fulfilled.

In terms of Jeremiah 31:31-34, which you think is unfulfilled, Hebrews 8:6-13 says it was fulfilled by way of the establishment of the new covenant which was put into effect long ago by the blood of Christ. So, why don't you believe that? This is another example of how your interpretation of OT scripture doesn't line up with how the NT authors understood those OT prophecies. You seem to think you understand the OT prophecies better than the NT authors did. How else to explain you not accepting the fulfillment of that prophecy as indicated in Hebrews 8:6-13?

 

[marks]

Scripture declares there are TWO separate Israels.

a.) Israel of the flesh = Romans ch9, John ch1

b.) Israel of God/Spirit/Born-Again = Gospel, Romans, Acts, Ephesians, Galatians, Revelation

Whom will be returned to their promised land after being kicked out for disobedience to their covenant with God that was made at Mount Horeb?

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Show a passage, and indicate the place, please.

Much love!

He did show you, the Matthew 26:28 Scripture is where he was quoting.

Matt 26:28
28 For this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
KJV

If you don't believe that, then it means you have no remission of your sins by Lord Jesus.

 

[David in NJ]

Whom will be returned to their promised land after being kicked out for disobedience to their covenant with God that was made at Mount Horeb?

Much love!

#1 - They have returned to the Land in fulfillment = Matt 24:32

"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near.


#2 - JESUS will Return and deliver a Remnant of Jews = Zech ch13 states that HE will spare a "third".

Matthew ch23
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! Look, your house is left to you desolate.
For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Zechariah 13:8-9
And in all the land,
declares the LORD,
two-thirds will be cut off and perish,
but a third will be left in it.
This third I will bring through the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on My name,
and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are My people,’
and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’ ”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And I've already said that the sin offering is fulfilled in Christ, yet there remain fellowship and thanksgiving offerings. Can we not repeat ground we've already covered?

It's understandable why you would want to stop talking about this, but you haven't addressed the fact that there is no scripture which states that future animal sacrifices will be offered only as "fellowship and thanksgiving offerings". I've asked you where is the scripture which teaches that and I haven't received any response so far. So, can you please do that before we move on from this?

 

[marks]

I didn't say they didn't believe them. Read what I actually say instead of reading things into what I say. My point is that there is nothing in the NT to support your interpretations of those OT passages. That tells me that the NT authors did not have the same understanding of those OT passages as you do. Why else can you not find anything in the NT to support your doctrine?

What you are saying here is . . . now, I'm not trying to read anything into your words, but tell me if I'm not right about this,

For instance,

Jeremiah 31:31-32 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

There's a surface reading to this passage, which, if you forget about anything else, just what Jeremiah wrote, and what it sounded like to them, something like this,

That there was a covenant God made with the Israelites, the "house of Israel" and the "house of Judah", that is, the Northern and Southern Kingdoms, but the people broke that covenant. But there will be a time God will make a new covenant with them.

Jeremiah 31:33-34 KJV
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

And instead of the Law that condemns them, God will change them, they will all be forgiven, all will know Him.

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

And as long as the natural order endures, so will this people remain a people, a nation, as they understood themselves, before the LORD. And if you can measure to the end of heaven, or take a trip to the earth's core, God will throw them away. But otherwise, no.

Anyway, so this passage has a plain surface reading above, but your assertion is that we shouldn't interpret the passage as though it were that simple. That it actually means something else.

So then what does it mean?

And how do we know that's correct?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course everyone has opinions. I just think we need to be clear on what the Bible says, and what is our opinion of what it means.

Of course. But doing that does not require making assumptions that everything is literal and straightfoward unless explicitly stated otherwise. That is just simply not the case. Your method of interpretation scripture requires no spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit at all. Is that what Paul said about scripture in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16?

When it says, "another great sign in heaven", there's a good indicator that what's coming is a symbol or metaphor for something else. John saw a great red dragon, and not much later tells us this dragon is Satan himself. So we know it's a sign, and we know what the sign means, and those with Biblical authority.

Sometimes it's made known when something is symbolic and sometimes it's not.

Hm. What do you suppose my answer to this question is? Are you asking me if I believe in being spiritually obtuse?

Based on your comments up to this point, I would think your answer would be "no, spiritual discernment is not required because it is all spelled out for us". That is the impression I get from you. If that isn't accurate, don't get upset with me. I can't help it that you come across that way with all the times you talk about interpreting the scripture by the exact words and as written and such.

Let me ask you this. Do you suppose that your spiritual discernment will ever contradict the Scriptures?

Did you actually think I might answer yes to this question? Are you kidding me right now? Of course I, as well as everyone else here, do not believe there are any contradictions in scripture.

Or will your spiritual discernment show you the fullness of the meaning of the words you read, while not cancelling them or contradicting them? Instead showing how there are no contradictions, and everything can be fully harmonized in all it's plainness?

Spiritual discernment includes direct insights from the Holy Spirit Himself regarding what the scripture means along with using scripture to interpret scripture to ensure that your interpretation of any given scripture passage does not contradict any other scripture passage.

Centuries ago, people couldn't understand how Israel could ever be a Jewish homeland again, and discounted those passages that show Israel repopulated by God's chosen nation. And that continues to be a pattern today, even though we see Jerusalem taking postion for the beast to come against the Jews there.

Gog and Magog will invade the mountains of Israel, a nation preserved by God, now living in their homeland again - even according to the blessings and cursings of their covenant with God. And when Jesus comes, His angels will regather all the remaining Jews to their promised land, exactly as He promised.

I can't find a single passage in the NT that tells me this is not to be believed, and many that harmonize with it.

First of all, why can't we find any NT scripture which speaks of this? Surely, if such a thing was going to happen there would be NT scripture which talks about it. But, there is none.

Also, have you never read this:

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Abraham and other OT saints came to realize that what God was actually promising them was far more than just a piece of land on the earth. They came to understand that He was rather promising them "a better country, that is, an heavenly...for he hath prepared for them a city". They realized that they were just "strangers and pilgrims on the earth". They realized that God was promising far more than just earthly things, but rather was promising heavenly things that were far better.

Peter said in relation to believers that we are looking forward to "new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2 Peter 3:13). God is not just promising His people land, but rather is promising His people the entire new heavens and new earth. That is what Abraham and the other OT saints came to realize. It's time for you to start realizing this as well. A hyper-literal approach to interpreting scripture is not going to help you understand things like this.

 

[marks]

Your method of interpretation scripture requires no spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit at all. Is that what Paul said about scripture in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16?

You won't understand the plain sayings of Scripture without the Holy Spirit revealing it to you. And once you do understand, when the Holy Spirit gives that discernment, you will find that all of your understandings both harmonize and agree with every last little word.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What you are saying here is . . . now, I'm not trying to read anything into your words, but tell me if I'm not right about this,

For instance,

Jeremiah 31:31-32 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

There's a surface reading to this passage, which, if you forget about anything else, just what Jeremiah wrote, and what it sounded like to them, something like this,

That there was a covenant God made with the Israelites, the "house of Israel" and the "house of Judah", that is, the Northern and Southern Kingdoms, but the people broke that covenant. But there will be a time God will make a new covenant with them.

Jeremiah 31:33-34 KJV
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

And instead of the Law that condemns them, God will change them, they will all be forgiven, all will know Him.

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

And as long as the natural order endures, so will this people remain a people, a nation, as they understood themselves, before the LORD. And if you can measure to the end of heaven, or take a trip to the earth's core, God will throw them away. But otherwise, no.

Anyway, so this passage has a plain surface reading above, but your assertion is that we shouldn't interpret the passage as though it were that simple. That it actually means something else.

So then what does it mean?

And how do we know that's correct?

In my view there is no need to break the prophecy down like this and try to figure out what every word means. In my view all we need to know is that Paul (I assume he wrote the book of Hebrews) said that the establishment of the new covenant which replaced the old covenant was the fulfillment of that prophecy. You are talking in terms of the new covenant not yet being in effect, which directly contradicts what Hebrews 8:6-13 says. Why are you doing that?

I just accept what that passage indicates, which is that the prophecy is fulfilled with the establishment of the new covenant. And it was put into effect long ago by the blood of Christ, as scripture teaches. I don't feel any need to explain every word of the prophecy and how it is fulfilled the way you do. I trust Paul and all the other NT authors that they knew what they were talking about. And Hebrews 8:6-13 indicates that the fulfillment of that prophecy has to do with the past establishment of the new covenant. That's good enough for me.

 

[marks]

Sometimes it's made known when something is symbolic and sometimes it's not.

So then, if the Bible doesn't say something is a symbol, and you do, does your assertion have Biblical authority? Or is it only that, You just know it's a symbol?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Based on your comments up to this point, I would think your answer would be "no, spiritual discernment is not required because it is all spelled out for us". That is the impression I get from you.

Keep reading . . .

 

[marks]

Did you actually think I might answer yes to this question? Are you kidding me right now? Of course I, as well as everyone else here, do not believe there are any contradictions in scripture.

So hopefully I've made my point. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, let's just stay on topic shall we?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You won't understand the plain sayings of Scripture without the Holy Spirit revealing it to you. And once you do understand, when the Holy Spirit gives that discernment, you will find that all of your understandings both harmonize and agree with every last little word.

The impression you give is that you come into it with the assumption that everything will be literal unless it explicitly says otherwise. How is that a case of using spiritual discernment? Spiritual discernment comes from taking an objective, non-biased approach to the sciriptures and then allowing the Holy Spirit to reveal whether any given passage is meant to be understood literally or figuratively (symbolically, metaphorically, etc.).

 

[marks]

#1 - They have returned to the Land in fulfillment = Matt 24:32

Every one of them?

Most actually didn't return after the captivity. And they came back in various groups spread out over years. And did angels gather them? I'm not seeing the fulfillment. And then they were expelled from the land again, so that absolutely does not fulfill those prophecies. That is an integral part, that they would never again have to leave.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The impression you give is that you come into it with the assumption that everything will be literal unless it explicitly says otherwise.

All who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Literal or Not? How do you know?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So hopefully I've made my point.

Your point was that there are no contradictions in scripture? Who here doesn't believe that? Why did you think that point needed to be made, as if anyone here doesn't already know that?

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, let's just stay on topic shall we?

I don't feel that I've gone off topic. If I have, then so have you as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Davy]

All who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Literal or Not? How do you know?

Much love!

Those who don't believe Lord Jesus fulfilled The New Covenant by shedding His Blood upon His cross for the remission of sins won't be saved.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Literal or Not? How do you know?

That is literal. How I know is that there is other scripture which teaches the same thing. Why did you ask me this? It's not as if I said nothing is literal.

 

[marks]

Your point was that there are no contradictions in scripture?

No, my point was . . . nevermind, maybe read back. "Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander" what applies to one applies to the others.

You don't ignore contradictions, neither do I. You use spiritual discernment, so do I. Let's discuss Scripture more than each other.

Much love!

 

[marks]

That is literal. How I know is that there is other scripture which teaches the same thing. Why did you ask me this? It's not as if I said nothing is literal.

I beg your indulgance for a bit . . .

John 20:22-23 KJV
22) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23) Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Literal or figurative?

I ask, because there is no parallel passage.

Much love!