Jesus has devised more than one way to bring people to him

[Jack]

The usual answer to that argument is that the devil and his angels are immortal beings. Mankind is not immortal, and there are plenty of Biblical references to back that up. So let's retire that argument.

In any case, I have a limited amount of compassion, and I'll not waste any Sympathy for the Devil.

Please allow me to introduce myself,
I'm a man of wealth and taste
...
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzlin' you
Is the nature of my game

You chopped off the part of my post that says humans will suffer the same fate as the Devil.

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Lambano]

You chopped off the part of my post that says humans will suffer the same fate as the Devil.

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The answer to that argument is that the fire is everlasting; human souls are not. Jesus said Gehenna destroys both body and soul, and I believe Him. Now let's retire that argument.

 

[Jack]

The answer to that argument is that the fire is everlasting; the human souls are not. Now let's retire that one.

Jesus says you're wrong.

Luke 16
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

 

[Lambano]

Jesus says you're wrong.... And being in torments in Hades,

Jesus says that was in Hades, not Gehenna. Hades gets destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Obviously, they're different places.

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Revelation 20:14

C'mon, the arguments have been hashed and rehashed over and over.

 

[Jack]

Jesus says that was in Hades, not Gehenna. Hades gets destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Obviously, they're different places.

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Revelation 20:14

C'mon, the arguments have been hashed and rehashed over and over.

You're being evasive. The rich man DIED but was quite alive in the fire. He didn't 'cease to exist'.

 

[Lambano]

You're being evasive. The rich man DIED but was quite alive in the fire. He didn't 'cease to exist'.

That was the First Death. We're talking about the Second Death. ("You only live twice, Mr. Bond.") The Bible differentiates between the death of the body and the death of the soul.

28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. (Matthew 10:28)

This ain't my first rodeo. I know all the arguments. You haven't hit the right verse yet.

 

[Jack]

That was the First Death. We're talking about the Second Death. ("You only live twice, Mr. Bond.") The Bible differentiates between the death of the body and the death of the soul.

28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. (Matthew 10:28)

This ain't my first rodeo.

'Destroy' does not mean 'cease to exist'. 'Everlasting destruction' a process that NEVER ends.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 (NKJV)
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

 

[Lambano]

I appreciate you taking your time to share your well-spoken understanding and belief.

But how does the concept of eternal punishment reconcile with 1 Timothy 4:10 which says that Jesus is the savior of ALL people? To me, this verse and many others are very problematic for the theology of eternal punishment.

Thank you, Patrick.

This verse is one of the reasons why I told Johann that I leave it open as a possibility. I admit there are possibilities and probabilities, and I'm not cocksure that I have everything right.

The usual argument (and it's often used in the Calvinist-Arminian battles) is that God is potentially the savior of all men, and that the μάλιστα ("especially") has the literary force of defining who will actually get saved. Or in a related argument, that God is the savior of all who are going to get saved, and μάλιστα is a literary device for further refining down the original statement. I find both explanations to be less than satisfactory.

I also do not assume that the Bible cannot have real contradictions in it. I accept that it may not be possible to reason out correct doctrine from the Bible with 100% confidence. That's where trust has to override the need to know for sure.

 

[Jack]

I also do not assume that the Bible cannot have real contradictions in it.

So, the promises of Salvation are questionable? How about John 3:16?

 

[Lambano]

'Destroy' does not mean 'cease to exist'. 'Everlasting destruction' a process that NEVER ends

Naw, ὄλεθρος is a noun, not a verb. It's a state of being, not a process. "Eternal destruction" just means it no longer exists in the form it was, and it will never be restored.

 

[Jack]

Naw, ὄλεθρος is a noun, not a verb. It's a state of being, not a process. "Eternal destruction" just means it no longer exists in the form it was, and it will never be restored.

You're a Greek expert? All our Bibles say you're wrong.

 

[Lambano]

So, the promises of Salvation are questionable? How about John 3:16?

We walk by trust, not by sight. 2 Corinthians 5:7.

 

[Jack]

We walk by trust, not by sight. 2 Corinthians 5:7.

I get it. You pick the parts of the Bible you like!

 

[Lambano]

I get it. You pick the parts of the Bible you like!

Don't we all?

 

[Jack]

Don't we all?

Not Christians. Not if we want to escape the "everlasting fire" that Jesus clearly warned us about. Removing 'the everlasting fire' is a sure way to burn "forever and ever" with Satan in the worst prison ever with the most wicked beings who ever lived, with ZERO parole.

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Patrick1966]

Thank you, Patrick.

This verse is one of the reasons why I told Johann that I leave it open as a possibility. I admit there are possibilities and probabilities, and I'm not cocksure that I have everything right.

The usual argument (and it's often used in the Calvinist-Arminian battles) is that God is potentially the savior of all men, and that the μάλιστα ("especially") has the literary force of defining who will actually get saved. Or in a related argument, that God is the savior of all who are going to get saved, and μάλιστα is a literary device for further refining down the original statement. I find both explanations to be less than satisfactory.

I also do not assume that the Bible cannot have real contradictions in it. I accept that it may not be possible to reason out correct doctrine from the Bible with 100% confidence. That's where trust has to override the need to know for sure.

Nice post. I appreciate your perspective.

 

[St. SteVen]

That's just another way of making yourself the judge of God. Don't compare Him to us.

Whoa, hold the bus, buddy.

1) Jesus taught us that it is godly behavior to love our enemies.
But we have been taught that God tortures his enemies for all eternity.
Which one is actually godly behavior? Unless there are two standards.
I would say torturing people is at a LOWER standard than loving them.

2) We also have a God-given conscious to determine right from wrong.

3) I'm not attacking God, I'm attacking a MAJOR misconception about Him.
If someone accused your father of torturing people in his basement, would stand idly by?

 

[Jack]

A

Whoa, hold the bus, buddy.

1) Jesus taught us that it is godly behavior to love our enemies.
But we have been taught that God tortures his enemies for all eternity.
Which one is actually godly behavior? Unless there are two standards.
I would say torturing people is at a LOWER standard than loving them.

2) We also have a God-given conscious to determine right from wrong.

3) I'm not attacking God, I'm attacking a MAJOR misconception about Him.
If someone accused your father of torturing people in his basement, would stand idly by?

Are you saying the Bible is not the written Word of God?

 

[Lizbeth]

I don't believe this passage is given to teach us that there are multiple ways to the Father. I see it the plea of a woman on behalf of a man on behalf of a kingdom to restore the heir apparent, but not a teaching of our redemption in Christ.

Much love!

Brother, I completely agree that there is only one way to the Father. I think the OP is not rightly dividing that verse. Just that the OT in general is chock full of hints and foreshadowings of the gospel to come and I believe that verse is one such. When praying/interceding for a soul we might plead with God (our King) that nothing is too hard for Him, that He can make a way (devise any means He chooses) to restore and bring a soul to the one way which is Christ. And He may use different means with different people. At least that's how it strikes me, when I read that passage.

 

[Lambano]

If someone accused your father of torturing people in his basement, would stand idly by?

And nobody wants to ask the question of whether an entity that keeps a torture chamber downstairs can be trusted to keep his promises of salvation.

I wish I didn't have to write that. But it needed to be said.