Jesus has devised more than one way to bring people to him

[Lizbeth]

Whoa, hold the bus, buddy.

1) Jesus taught us that it is godly behavior to love our enemies.
But we have been taught that God tortures his enemies for all eternity.
Which one is actually godly behavior? Unless there are two standards.
I would say torturing people is at a LOWER standard than loving them.

2) We also have a God-given conscious to determine right from wrong.

3) I'm not attacking God, I'm attacking a MAJOR misconception about Him.
If someone accused your father of torturing people in his basement, would stand idly by?

All we have to do is open our eyes and see the awful suffering that happens in this world even now under His watch.....because the bible says this world is under wrath already. Sin comes with consequences and when God punishes and chastises mankind, He is being just. The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, as the bible also says. He who gave life in the first place has every right to take it away if He chooses. What do you glean from the rich man who ended up in hell when he died, while poor Lazarus went to a much happier place. Was God being unjust? Was the rich man being offered a second chance?

 

[marks]

Whoa, hold the bus, buddy.

1) Jesus taught us that it is godly behavior to love our enemies.
But we have been taught that God tortures his enemies for all eternity.
Which one is actually godly behavior? Unless there are two standards.
I would say torturing people is at a LOWER standard than loving them.

2) We also have a God-given conscious to determine right from wrong.

3) I'm not attacking God, I'm attacking a MAJOR misconception about Him.
If someone accused your father of torturing people in his basement, would stand idly by?

Just calling it torture is your continuing to sit in judgment over God.

Suffering may be the only way to stop the unrepentant living dead from continuing in sin without violating their will. Continuing in sin forever, becoming ever more evil, forever, have you considered it could be an act of mercy?

Do you consider that we have "enemies", that this is equal to God having "enemies"? We are not the creator, He is.

At the end of day . . . "No, God won't judge people for eternity, that's just not good!!" Well, I'm going to take His Word over yours.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Brother, I completely agree that there is only one way to the Father. I think the OP is not rightly dividing that verse. Just that the OT in general is chock full of hints and foreshadowings of the gospel to come and I believe that verse is one such. When praying/interceding for a soul we might plead with God (our King) that nothing is too hard for Him, that He can make a way (devise any means He chooses) to restore and bring a soul to the one way which is Christ. And He may use different means with different people. At least that's how it strikes me, when I read that passage.

I like this! Good stuff!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Death never means "cease to exist" in the Bible.

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Many will certainly wish they "ceased to exist"!

And in fact, Death is used demonstrably of those who did not cease to exist. The only definition for death Biblically that fits in all instances is "separation". The soul separated from the body is physical death. The soul separated from God is spiritual death. Neither of these mean "cease to exist". So then neither does the second death mean "cease to exist", particularly when there are many passages which indicate otherwise.

Much love!

 

[Jack]

And in fact, Death is used demonstrably of those who did not cease to exist. The only definition for death Biblically that fits in all instances is "separation". The soul separated from the body is physical death. The soul separated from God is spiritual death. Neither of these mean "cease to exist". So then neither does the second death mean "cease to exist", particularly when there are many passages which indicate otherwise.

Much love!

Amen!

1 Timothy 5
6 But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.

 

[amigo de christo]

That's just another way of making yourself the judge of God. Don't compare Him to us.

There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end of it is death.

Much love!

Mark you spot on right my friend .

 

[amigo de christo]

St. SteVen said:
Does the Bible tell you that Jesus died to save us from God?

Does that mean that you AGREE that Jesus died to save us from God? - LOL
It makes little sense. What's the point?

JESUS didnt die to save us from GOD but from our own selves . GOD IS GONNA TROD this ol earth and all evil UNDER FOOT .
HE gonna destroy all that is evil . ANY GUESSES on who WILL TREAD that winepress wrath of GOD . JESUS DOES .
UNTO ALL WHO REJECTED HIM . GOD LOVED THE WORLD . SO HE SENT CHRIST that all who do BELIEVE
would not PERISH but have EVERLASTING LIFE . You bess cease with the all inclusive universalists ideals .
RATHER TRY PREACHING THE GOSPEL that DOES SAVE and stop giving out false hope that wont save .

 

[Cassandra]

God alone hath immortality--we don't.
I Tim 6:16"who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto, whom no man hath seen nor can see, to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.

And this one says it as well. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life John 3:16
Immortality is a gift.

Ye shall not surely die was the first lie. Gen 3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

 

[St. SteVen]

And nobody wants to ask the question of whether an entity that keeps a torture chamber downstairs can be trusted to keep his promises of salvation.

I wish I didn't have to write that. But it needed to be said.

Agree, absolutely!

Imagine what their heaven would be like.
Knowing your loved ones are being tortured mercilessly downstairs in the dungeon.
One false move, and you will join them.

 

[St. SteVen]

when God punishes and chastises mankind, He is being just.

Eternal punishment for a finite crime is just?

He who gave life in the first place has every right to take it away if He chooses.

God as a cosmic tyrant?

What do you glean from the rich man who ended up in hell when he died, while poor Lazarus went to a much happier place. Was God being unjust? Was the rich man being offered a second chance?

Do you recall the reason that Lazarus ended up where he did?
Does it fit your view of the gospel?

Luke 16:25 NIV
“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,
while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.



cc: @Patrick1966

 

[St. SteVen]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

Just calling it torture is your continuing to sit in judgment over God.

What else should we call burning forever with no hope of escape?
Imagine being strapped to a BBQ grill that never ends.
Think about that while flipping burgers or turning chicken on the BBQ grill.
What if that was me? Torture? Don't judge the grill master.

Suffering may be the only way to stop the unrepentant living dead from continuing in sin without violating their will. Continuing in sin forever, becoming ever more evil, forever, have you considered it could be an act of mercy?

An act of mercy? On the eternal BBQ. Yup, that's how they will see it.

Do you consider that we have "enemies", that this is equal to God having "enemies"? We are not the creator, He is.

Why are we commanded to love our enemies, and not incinerate them? (as God would do, according to you)

At the end of day . . . "No, God won't judge people for eternity, that's just not good!!"

For what purpose?
Is God in the business of reconciliation, or not?

Well, I'm going to take His Word over yours.

Are you sure you understand Him?

 

[marks]

For what purpose?
Is God in the business of reconciliation, or not?

He urges you, be reconciled to God. Why?

You don't like the answer, but the answer is what God has said. Or to put it in the words of Barren Cross, "I don't allow the living dead!"

Much love!

 

[marks]

Why are we commanded to love our enemies, and not incinerate them? (as God would do, according to you)

You having enemies is not like God having enemies. You are not on the level of God. I don't think you really take that to heart. Just my impression.

Much love!

 

[marks]

An act of mercy? On the eternal BBQ. Yup, that's how they will see it.

How would you have any idea how someone who is no longer in flesh would see something? I don't think this is something you can know.

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

He urges you, be reconciled to God. Why?

You don't like the answer, but the answer is what God has said. Or to put it in the words of Barren Cross, "I don't allow the living dead!"

I don't like the answer? Do you like the answer?
I assume you mean that God asks us to be reconciled to Him so that he won't destroy us, or torture us forever?
That's not a gift. That is extortion.

I think he wants to reconcile the relationship. It's not a threat, but a loving invitation.
Is that so hard to accept?

 

[St. SteVen]

You having enemies is not like God having enemies. You are not on the level of God. I don't think you really take that to heart. Just my impression.

Perhaps our view of God differs.
I'm welcome to sit in Father's lap anytime. He won't push me away, or be angry with me.
Do you run and hide when God shows up? (if he ever does for you) ????

 

[St. SteVen]

How would you have any idea how someone who is no longer in flesh would see something? I don't think this is something you can know.

Can God see? Can he hear? Taste? Smell? Feel?
We will be like him.

 

[marks]

Can God see? Can he hear? Taste? Smell? Feel?
We will be like him.

You presume to speak for those who would be past their flesh life who are facing God's righteous judgment. I don't believe you have any basis by which you could conceive of what their minds will think or perceive.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Do you run and hide when God shows up? (if he ever does for you) ????

What does this have to do with our discussion, other than the obvious?

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

All we have to do is open our eyes and see the awful suffering that happens in this world even now under His watch.....because the bible says this world is under wrath already. Sin comes with consequences and when God punishes and chastises mankind, He is being just. The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, as the bible also says. He who gave life in the first place has every right to take it away if He chooses. What do you glean from the rich man who ended up in hell when he died, while poor Lazarus went to a much happier place. Was God being unjust? Was the rich man being offered a second chance?

This world as well as mankind was cursed the moment they ate from that tree .
Yep .
And yes indeed , EVERY SINGLE JUDGEMENT of GOD IS RIGHTEOUS .
EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM .
Yes indeed dear sister .
Tis the righteous judgment of GOD that we the lambs suffer for the KINGDOM of GOD .
IT IS also the RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT of GOD when he delivers wrath upon those who did persecute us .
SEE , GOD DID and DOES LOVE the WORLD . DID HE NOT SEND HIS SON so that all who do believe
would be saved .
Folks always wanna blame GOD . Yet if we look closely the real reason is they still love their sin
WHEN GOD created adam and then later eve , Did HE just put adam in the garden
and step back and WAIT FOR HIM TO TAKE A BIG OL BITE out of that tree .
OR , OR , DID GOD TELL ADAM , WARN ADAM , NOT to eat of that tree and in the day he did HE WOULD SURELY DIE .
SO , whose to blame . MANKIND IS to blame . WE all have sinned .
GOD in great love and mercy HAS GIVEN MANKIND THE WAY OUT . HIS NAME . JESUS CHRIST .
YEP . But woe woe woe to those who deny ,reject HIM .
I seen where another person said a real good truth and i want us all to examine that .
What was the VERY FIRST LIE the serpent told the woman .
YE SHALL NOT DIE .
Looks like he still does that today . Would you like an example .
HAS GOD said one must truly BELIEVE IN CHRIST to have eternal life and that if one denies HIM
they will face the second death .
NAY NAY sayeth the same sepernt . THEY SHALL NOT DIE , GOD IS LOVE . THAT IS HOW THE Serpent has always worked .
OH has GOD really said ,