Jesus has devised more than one way to bring people to him

[Patrick1966]

Mainstream Christianity says that the ONLY way to salvation is to accept Jesus in THIS lifetime. However, the verse below is evidence that that belief is inaccurate.

Notice the plural in "devices" in the following verse.

2 Samuel 14:14
14 for we do surely die, and [are] as water which is running down to the earth, which is not gathered, and God doth not accept a person, and hath devised devices in that the outcast is not outcast by Him.

Notice that the verse does NOT say "hath devised a device" (singular).

Preferably, people willingly go to Jesus while in the physical world. By doing so they purify themselves and are saved and healed the nice and easy way.

1 John 3:3 CLNT demonstrates that those who look to Christ purify themselves:
3 And everyone who has this expectation in Him is purifying himself, according as He is pure.

I think 1 John 3:3 also implies that EVERYONE will be purified but that those who look to Christ purify themselves.

So, what is/are the other "devices" that Jesus uses to purify people so that they do not remain an outcast?

My belief is, the Lake of Fire.

@St. SteVen
@FaithWillDo

 

[St. SteVen]

A couple of scriptures come to mind that don't align with the standard dogma.
One points to the human conscience providing God's law as guidance. (Rom. 2:14-16)
The other states that acts of human kindness fit the bill. (Matt. 25:34-36)
Although ultimately, everyone will acknowledge Jesus as Lord in the afterlife. (Phil. 2:10-11)

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts
sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Matthew 25:34-36 NIV
“Then the King will say to those on his right,
‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance,
the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat,
I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink,
I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 I needed clothes and you clothed me,
I was sick and you looked after me,
I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

Philippians 2:10-11 NIV
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Jack]

Satan LOVES Universalism!

 

[M3n0r4h]

Jesus has devised more than one way to bring people to him​

Mainstream Christianity says that the ONLY way to salvation is to accept Jesus in THIS lifetime. However, the verse below is evidence that that belief is inaccurate.

Notice the plural in "devices" in the following verse.

2 Samuel 14:14
14 for we do surely die, and [are] as water which is running down to the earth, which is not gathered, and God doth not accept a person, and hath devised devices in that the outcast is not outcast by Him.

Notice that the verse does NOT say "hath devised a device" (singular).

Preferably, people willingly go to Jesus while in the physical world. By doing so they purify themselves and are saved and healed the nice and easy way.

1 John 3:3 CLNT demonstrates that those who look to Christ purify themselves:
3 And everyone who has this expectation in Him is purifying himself, according as He is pure.

I think 1 John 3:3 also implies that EVERYONE will be purified but that those who look to Christ purify themselves.

So, what is/are the other "devices" that Jesus uses to purify people so that they do not remain an outcast?

My belief is, the Lake of Fire.

@St. SteVen
@FaithWillDo

do we find anywhere in the Bible that Jesus tells us to bring people to Him?

just curious. I've never seen that anywhere in scripture.

on the contrary, I find almost the opposite in multiple statements by Christ.

 

[Patrick1966]

do we find anywhere in the Bible that Jesus tells us to bring people to Him?

just curious. I've never seen that anywhere in scripture.

on the contrary, I find almost the opposite in multiple statements by Christ.

Well, Jesus commanded his disciples to bring people to him.

Matthew 28:19-20
​

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

 

[M3n0r4h]

Well, Jesus commanded his disciples to bring people to him.

Matthew 28:19-20​

​

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, ...

hmm.

well, I guess He wants us to spread His Truth to any and all who will listen for sure.

verses like the following give me pause though about evangelism as a mission to bring people to the Faith.

(Jesus speaking) "No man can come to me unless the Father draws them ..."
John 6:44

(Jesus speaking) "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: ..."
John 10:27

it just seems the Bible teaches that there are a great many that cannot, and will not ever, come to Christ and we ourselves cannot save anybody. it seems as if it's God's department to bring those who belong to Him into the fold.

the critical difference, I guess, that I'm getting at is that the modern church teachings of "come one, come all, bring everyone to the church" - type thinking just doesn't seem Biblical; it seems like more of a business strategy to bring in dollars more than a mission to save souls.

 

[Patrick1966]

hmm.

well, I guess He wants us to spread His Truth to any and all who will listen for sure.

verses like the following give me pause though about evangelism as a mission to bring people to the Faith.

(Jesus speaking) "No man can come to me unless the Father draws them ..."
John 6:44

(Jesus speaking) "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: ..."
John 10:27

it just seems the Bible teaches that there are a great many that cannot, and will not ever, come to Christ and we ourselves cannot save anybody. it seems as if it's God's department to bring those who belong to Him into the fold.

the critical difference, I guess, that I'm getting at is that the modern church teachings of "come one, come all, bring everyone to the church" - type thinking just doesn't seem Biblical; it seems like more of a business strategy to bring in dollars more than a mission to save souls.

And then there's this from Paul.

2 Timothy 4:2
preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.

 

[Patrick1966]

hmm.

well, I guess He wants us to spread His Truth to any and all who will listen for sure.

verses like the following give me pause though about evangelism as a mission to bring people to the Faith.

(Jesus speaking) "No man can come to me unless the Father draws them ..."
John 6:44

(Jesus speaking) "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: ..."
John 10:27

it just seems the Bible teaches that there are a great many that cannot, and will not ever, come to Christ and we ourselves cannot save anybody. it seems as if it's God's department to bring those who belong to Him into the fold.

the critical difference, I guess, that I'm getting at is that the modern church teachings of "come one, come all, bring everyone to the church" - type thinking just doesn't seem Biblical; it seems like more of a business strategy to bring in dollars more than a mission to save souls.

For reasons not explained, God only permits some to follow Jesus - for now. In the end, of course, ALL people will go to Jesus. As 1 Corinthians 15 explains, Jesus must rule the kingdom until ALL follow him, at which time he will then give the kingdom to God the Father.

 

[rwb]

do we find anywhere in the Bible that Jesus tells us to bring people to Him?

just curious. I've never seen that anywhere in scripture.

on the contrary, I find almost the opposite in multiple statements by Christ.

I believe you've nailed it! We don't find Scripture telling believers to bring unbelievers to Christ. We are told to take the Gospel unto all people and whosoever believes by grace through faith in the power of the Holy Spirit are eternally saved. Whether we go out with the Gospel or people come to us to hear the Gospel, it is not we who bring people to Christ. It is the Gospel preached! For it is the power of God unto salvation for whosoever believes. So we proclaim the Gospel and Christ will eternally save whosoever believes.

Romans 1:16 (KJV) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

We don't save anyone by preaching the Gospel. But we are in obedience to the mandate of Christ when we preach the Gospel unto all people. For it is by His Gospel that Jesus shall save His people from their sins. Not ALL people without exception, but whosoever believes.

Matthew 1:21 (KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

[rwb]

Well, Jesus commanded his disciples to bring people to him.

Matthew 28:19-20​

​

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

That's not Christ commanding His disciples to bring people to Him. It is Christ commanding His disciples teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. How do we teach them? By preaching the Gospel which is the power of God unto salvation for whosoever believes.

Mark 16:15 (KJV) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

 

[M3n0r4h]

And then there's this from Paul.

2 Timothy 4:2
preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.

yes and I agree with that. I feel the emphasis is more on the spreading of the Word though than focusing on simply bringing people to Jesus.

it doesn't feel so much like we're supposed to "recruit", as the churches make it feel, as we are to just live rightly and speak God's Truth to any and all who'll listen, and some who won't.

God does the rest.

For reasons not explained, God only permits some to follow Jesus - for now. In the end, of course, ALL people will go to Jesus. As 1 Corinthians 15 explains, Jesus must rule the kingdom until ALL follow him, at which time he will then give the kingdom to God the Father.

yeah I don't believe that, but okay.

there's no Biblical basis for a teaching of that kind and 1 Cor. 15 doesn't say that at all.

 

[Patrick1966]

there's no Biblical basis for a teaching of that kind and 1 Cor. 15 doesn't say that at all.

It sure does my brother!

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God[c] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Patrick1966]

yes and I agree with that. I feel the emphasis is more on the spreading of the Word though than focusing on simply bringing people to Jesus.

it doesn't feel so much like we're supposed to "recruit", as the churches make it feel, as we are to just live rightly and speak God's Truth to any and all who'll listen, and some who won't.

God does the rest.

I never said nor implied that we should "bring people to Jesus". The point of my thread, and what I said, is that Jesus has devised more than one way to bring people to him. That's EXACTLY what 2 Samuel 14:14 says. Of course, you might be one of the many Christians here that doesn't believe what the Bible says.

 

[Jack]

Universalism is Satanic!

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[M3n0r4h]

It sure does my brother!

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God[c] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

it's speaking of those who ARE in Christ.

it's not saying that all people everywhere will be in Christ.

you're not taking the entire Bible into account with an assessment like that.

 

[M3n0r4h]

I never said nor implied that we should "bring people to Jesus". The point of my thread, and what I said, is that Jesus has devised more than one way to bring people to him. That's EXACTLY what 2 Samuel 14:14 says. Of course, you might be one of the many Christians here that doesn't believe what the Bible says.

the way it works is you read the entire Bible and you take "what the Bible says" and compare it to the full weight of scripture to decipher what the Bible, as a whole, teaches.

I believe exactly what the Bible says as long as there is not contradictory teachings that must be assimilated some way or another. the Bible doesn't contradict itself so if it appears to, then more data from the Bible is needed to insert into the equation.

 

[St. SteVen]

It is Christ commanding His disciples teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. How do we teach them?

Interestingly, there is no record of anyone doing that in the Bible.
(baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

 

[Patrick1966]

the way it works is you read the entire Bible and you take "what the Bible says" and compare it to the full weight of scripture to decipher what the Bible, as a whole, teaches.

I believe exactly what the Bible says as long as there is not contradictory teachings that must be assimilated some way or another. the Bible doesn't contradict itself so if it appears to, then more data from the Bible is needed to insert into the equation.

You are misunderstanding. Also, I see a lot of your personal opinions but ZERO scripture.

What does the following mean to you?

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

 

[rwb]

Interestingly, there is no record of anyone doing that in the Bible.
(baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

That is how I was baptized and how I've witnessed baptism being performed. When one professes to be a disciple of Christ, Christ instructs they be baptized with water in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit so they too may partake with the body of Christ, that is the church, during their sojourn on this earth.

Matthew 28:18-20 (KJV) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Matthew 28:18-20 (WEB) Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

Interestingly, there is no record of anyone doing that in the Bible.
(baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

That is how I was baptized and how I've witnessed baptism being performed. When one professes to be a disciple of Christ, Christ instructs they be baptized with water in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit so they too may partake with the body of Christ, that is the church, during their sojourn on this earth.

Matthew 28:18-20 (KJV) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Matthew 28:18-20 (WEB) Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

I see the commands, but I see no obedience in the NT scriptures. What happened?

Acts 19:1-7 NIV
While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[b] and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.