A question about the rapture

[David in NJ]

No red flag
WE both agree he returns after the gt.
The red flag is that see a rapture that is not here.
The angels are gathering from heaven.
that is after the gt.
Then Jesus speaks of another coming later in mat 24 that is BEFORE THE FLOOD... Before the trib
You are verifying the pretrib rapture without knowing it,because you left out the other coming.

There is only one gathering from heaven and earth = Matt ch24, 1 Thess ch4, 2 Thess ch2, 1 John, Hebrews 9:28, 1 Cor ch15

There are no OT Prophecies of CHRIST coming 3 times.

Peace

 

[ewq1938]

Correct
I was saying that it would be wrong to espouse a doctrine that NEEDED it to be the other way around.

And yes he removed his people first.

First before his wrath not first before any kind of tribulation from the enemy. The rapture happens when the GT is over, not before it begins.

 

[ewq1938]

I already told you I am COMFORTABLE with either reading of it.

What is neat, is how you attack me personally calling me apostate when I WENT TO THE GREEK that literally translates it "from standing"
Depart.
Departing from mosses teaching
Departing from the faith,
Depart from this earth.

Stop being paranoid of the actual word "depart".....from

apostasia only means a moral/religious departing not a physical departing.

 

[David in NJ]

Interesting, the 'judgment' begins - post-trib is a "work of righteousness" and:

pre-trib is a "work of iniquity"? = you guys Never stop, do you?

IF we may be Confused with a different view than yours, and now, all of a sudden:

You have the 'authority' to judge and sentence us to damnation Over a Non-salvific issue?

Thanks Be Unto God for HIS:

Grace, Peace, MERCY, Love, and JOY!

Amen.

First, i would like to say that pre/mid/post does not Save us nor qualify us for Salvation.
As you know, "not by works lest any man should boast".

However, pre-trib rapture indeed can very well be a work of iniquity!
Since 'pre-trib' rapture never came out of the Mouth of God, we must, at the very least, avoid proclaiming what God never said.

Now, i do not judge anyone for believing in pre-trib, except for those who twist scripture as the Serpent did in the Garden.
And that stands for Reason as God commands us not to add or take away from His words = Proverbs 30:5-6 & Rev 22:18

 

[No Pre-TB]

The 24 elders have crowns. You don't get crowns until Jesus comes so obviously Jesus has come in Revelation 4. That's cut and dried.

And yet you neglect everything in Ch 4 and 5 that says otherwise. Your assumption that the elders are resurrected before Christ enters after his death is an impossibility.
Where is the Kingdom?
Where is the marriage?
Where is the bema seat?
Where is the resurrection?
Where is the last trumpet in a sequence of trumpets?
Where is death swallowed up by victory?
Where is the last day?

This is just a few that are not mentioned at all in Rev 3, 4 or 5.

How are the elders, elder to John if John was one of the 12 and he doesn’t recognize them?

How are the elders the church if they hold the prayers of believers and believers are in heaven as you say before the seals are opened, thus they can’t be holding your tribulation saint prayers since the scroll is still sealed. They arnt holding their own prayers!

This is why Pre-TB has holes. Failure to explain legitimate questions because it’s difficult and it hurts their theory.

How many times are we rewarded? Just once right? But you’re making it more than once. Scripture should validate scripture.

 

[The Light]

The 5 foolish ran out of oil.
That is the only difference between them and the Wise virgins.

Oil represents the Holy Spirit.
The wise were on fire and intimate. The foolish were carnal and not as committed.
They stay behind and are martyred because they refuse the mark.

That's the common line alright. And it might very well be correct.

I admit, I cannot decide.

Anointing oil represents the holy spirit. Lamp oil is used to see. We are repeatedly told to WATCH. Could it be that the ones that are watching as instructed have oil and those that think that He delays His coming will have their house broken up. Lots of believers do not believe in the soon coming of the Messiah. They are not looking for Him as they foolishly wait for the end of the tribulation.

Hebrews 9
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[The Light]

And yet you neglect everything in Ch 4 and 5 that says otherwise. Your assumption that the elders are resurrected before Christ enters after his death is an impossibility.

I do not assume that. This is your error. Don't put words in my mouth and then claim I am wrong.

Where is the Kingdom?

Which kingdom?

Where is the marriage?

See Revelation 19.

Where is the bema seat?

The elders have crowns. That should tell you something.

Where is the resurrection?

The dead in Christ rise first.

Where is the last trumpet in a sequence of trumpets?

The last trumpet is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. It is the last of 100 trumpet blasts. This has nothing to do with the trump of God or voice of God for the first harvest. If you are interested in understand what is going to happen, you should study the feasts of God.

Where is death swallowed up by victory?

When the dead in Christ are raised for starters.

Where is the last day?

Which last day do you seek. There are many.

This is just a few that are not mentioned at all in Rev 3, 4 or 5.

There is also no water turned to wine in these chapters. There is no cock crowing three times and a fish with a coin in its mouth. And to put a nail in the coffin, no one gets their ear cut off in these chapters. I could go on, but this should be sufficient.

How are the elders, elder to John if John was one of the 12 and he doesn’t recognize them?

I'm missing the part where He claims not to recognize who these elders are. What chapter and verse would that be?

How are the elders the church if they hold the prayers of believers and believers are in heaven as you say before the seals are opened, thus they can’t be holding your tribulation saint prayers since the scroll is still sealed. They arnt holding their own prayers!

The elders are not the Church. The elders are elders and there are 24 of them.

This is why Pre-TB has holes. Failure to explain legitimate questions because it’s difficult and it hurts their theory.

Difficult questions? I can set up a string of straw men and knock them down also.

How many times are we rewarded? Just once right? But you’re making it more than once. Scripture should validate scripture.

They that are Christs AT HIS COMING.
He comes first for the dead in Christ. The barley harvest.
He returns for the alive that remain. The wheat harvest.
Then He comes for the 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes.
Then He comes for the fruit harvest. See Revelation 14, Matthew 24 and Revelation 6
Then He comes at the end of wrath.

You probably need to understand these things so you will understand what is getting ready to happen.

 

[Randy Kluth]

In the postrib doctrine they have trapped themselves in several impossibilities.
1) they say "only one coming"
That is DIRECTLY against the bible (that alone puts any notion of a postrib rapture to rest.

That is non sequitur reasoning! The idea there may be more than one Coming in no way precludes a Postrib perspective. For example, all Postrib accept more than a single coming of Christ, his earthly ministry and his 2nd Coming. Yet it does nothing to disprove the idea of a Postrib Coming.

2) They correctly declare with paul that the dead in Christ are resurrected before the living are taken in the rapture.

The dead in Christ are not *neglected* in the immortalization and inheritance of the saints. Therefore, they are brought back to life in order to be presented *simultaneously* the reward of the saints together with those still alive at the Coming of Christ.

......but fail to realize that rev 14 declares Jesus harvests the earth of the elect DURING THE TRIB .
That harvest is not, and can not be, the rapture.

The book of Revelation is apocalyptic literature, and is not necessarily sequential, except perhaps in the telling of the narrative by John. John recounts a number of visions, none of which have to be in an order of chronological fulfillment. For example, the account of Christ's Coming is told several times, and therefore are not several different Comings taking place chronologically.

Listen to every postrib rapture teacher. NONE OF THEM can discern rev14. Rev 14 is like a nuclear bomb to the postrib rapture doctrine.
Then try and find one that brings in the RAPTURE PARABLE. mat 25. If they do go into it to "explaine" it, they HAVE TO reframe it every time.

Only pretrib rapture fits

Sorry, we don't agree. And there is nothing that I've been unable to treat in this regard. I've been answering these kinds of questions since the late 70s.

 

[rebuilder 454]

That is non sequitur reasoning! The idea there may be more than one Coming in no way precludes a Postrib perspective. For example, all Postrib accept more than a single coming of Christ, his earthly ministry and his 2nd Coming. Yet it does nothing to disprove the idea of a Postrib Coming.

The dead in Christ are not *neglected* in the immortalization and inheritance of the saints. Therefore, they are brought back to life in order to be presented *simultaneously* the reward of the saints together with those still alive at the Coming of Christ.

The book of Revelation is apocalyptic literature, and is not necessarily sequential, except perhaps in the telling of the narrative by John. John recounts a number of visions, none of which have to be in an order of chronological fulfillment. For example, the account of Christ's Coming is told several times, and therefore are not several different Comings taking place chronologically.

Sorry, we don't agree. And there is nothing that I've been unable to treat in this regard. I've been answering these kinds of questions since the late 70s.

Glossing over talking points in no way changes them.
Your entire premise rests on the far fetched hope that Jesus returns once and that is the rapture.
the gathering by Jesus in rev 14 is not the second coming, nor the rapture.
Jesus himself declared 2 comings in mat 24 and luke 17,
You have not addressed anything.

 

[rebuilder 454]

First before his wrath not first before any kind of tribulation from the enemy. The rapture happens when the GT is over, not before it begins.

Jesus used Lot and Noah as examples.
Neither fit the post trib assumption.

 

[rebuilder 454]

There is only one gathering from heaven and earth = Matt ch24, 1 Thess ch4, 2 Thess ch2, 1 John, Hebrews 9:28, 1 Cor ch15

There are no OT Prophecies of CHRIST coming 3 times.

Peace

in mat 24 and luke 17, we see two comings, one after the trib, and one before.
In rev 14 as well as mat 25, we see two gatherings.
One is the rapture, the other is the gathering of messianic Jews.
the RETURN of Jesus is after the trib, but can not possibly be the rapture as Jesus vividly declared.

Note that in the rapture the bride goes immediately into the wedding room.

yet another impossibility for the postrib rapture, because that doctrine erroneously has the bride jump on riderless horses and into battle.

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus used Lot and Noah as examples.
Neither fit the post trib assumption.

Post Gt and Pre-Wrath PickUP

 

[David in NJ]

in mat 24 and luke 17, we see two comings, one after the trib, and one before.
In rev 14 as well as mat 25, we see two gatherings.
One is the rapture, the other is the gathering of messianic Jews.
the RETURN of Jesus is after the trib, but can not possibly be the rapture as Jesus vividly declared.

Note that in the rapture the bride goes immediately into the wedding room.

yet another impossibility for the postrib rapture, because that doctrine erroneously has the bride jump on riderless horses and into battle.

Jews & Gentiles in Christ are One Body gathered at the same time = Gospel, Acts, Romans, Galatians, Ephesians

Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

19Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus used Lot and Noah as examples.
Neither fit the post trib assumption.

Both fit post trib. Neither fit pretrib. Take Lot and his daughters. Tribulation came to them and Lot offered up his daughters. No rapture out of there protected them. Only when that suffering was over and the wrath of God was to come against the city did God have an angel bring Lot out of there. That is Post trib in nature through and through and is not at all a pre trib concept.

 

[David in NJ]

So true. That is why I am bible first.
I need no teachers, as the new testament pattern is being led by the spirit.
So the bible authenticates the Spirit. We can not go against the bible.
The verses I bring are in no way taught in the postrib doctrine.
We are to change our doctrine should it refute God's word.
"red flags" have to be a part of that equation.
My view of end times changed drastically when I saw the true panoramic picture.
It is the dynamic of the bride and groom.
That is the heart of heaven.
Bride calls out for the groom.
Bride is obscessed with the groom
The groom longs for his bride.
The last words of the bible, the bride calls out for the groom, in unison with the Spirit.

I think you may be a man of God. seems like you are.
my job is to present God's word. We are required to submit to that even if it goes against doctrine.
The bride/ groom dynamic is a game changer

Bible first is Matt ch24 which is Post-Trib Coming of the LORD Jesus Christ

There are no 'pre-trib' rapture declarations in the Holy Scriptures.

 

[The Light]

Bible first is Matt ch24 which is Post-Trib Coming of the LORD Jesus Christ

Correct. But you don't understand WHO He is coming for.

There are no 'pre-trib' rapture declarations in the Holy Scriptures.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[The Light]

Both fit post trib. Neither fit pretrib.

Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood

 

[David in NJ]

Correct. But you don't understand WHO He is coming for.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Matt 24
v3 - While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

He is coming for His Elect = the Chosen in Christ = 1 Peter1:2

"elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit,
for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ"

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Glossing over talking points in no way changes them.
Your entire premise rests on the far fetched hope that Jesus returns once and that is the rapture.
the gathering by Jesus in rev 14 is not the second coming, nor the rapture.
Jesus himself declared 2 comings in mat 24 and luke 17,
You have not addressed anything.

You have not made any argument. I do believe the picture of Jesus' Coming in Rev 14 is indeed the 2nd Coming. There are many preliminary presentations of Jesus' Coming in the Revelation, and they all represent a single Coming at the end of the age, on the "last day." What on earth do I need to prove about Matt 24 and Luke 17. I've been interpreting the Olivet Discourse for years as a Postrib.

 

[The Light]

Matt 24
v3 - While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

He is coming for His Elect = the Chosen in Christ = 1 Peter1:2

"elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit,
for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ"

The elect are gathered from heaven and earth.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Church will be gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman, will be gathered from the earth.

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Thank you, brother.

It is very concerning that you are unable to understand that the rapture of the Church is getting ready to happen. When it does happen are you going to believe what your eyes see......the aliens have come or are you going to realize that you lacked understanding? The Word says that He appears to those that are watching for Him, which should be a concern to you. The hour of testing is near. All the best to you and strength.