I have noticed the following Negatives about the 'rapture'...
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That can be a good idea. For myself, well, I do in fact consult study Bibles some times, that's another form of a commentary, and I look at commentaries some times.
For the most part, I read various translations, and I look at the Greek wording. I've had some Koine Greek schooling, and have continued to pursue my studies, but I'm not expert, that's for certain!
I do lot's of "word studies", looking at every place a certain Greek word is used, how it's used, how it's affected by it's context, like that. I find that very useful. Not just the concordance for English word translations, that's not the same.
It was in 2001 that God just "switched off" my desire to read just books (I've been a voracious reader all my life), and switched on "I want to know the Bible", and I've been at it since. So now the Bible is (99.9%) the only Book I'm interested in. There have been a few that I've spent the time reading. A couple are,
Walk In the Light While there is Light - Leo Tolstoy - Excellent book!!
The Heavenly Trilogy - Harry Blamires - Allegory along the lines of Lewis or Bunyon
Much love!
Numbers 23:19 (WEB):
(19) God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should repent.
John 4:24 (KJV):(24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Are angels divine? They descend and acend too:
Genesis 28:12 (WEB):
(12) He dreamed. Behold, a stairway set upon the earth, and its top reached to heaven. Behold, the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
John 1:51 (WEB):(51) He [Jesus] said to him, “Most certainly, I tell you all, hereafter you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”
He was a human when he died!
No.
Paul says he was not sure whether he was actually there in the body or not:
(2) I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I don’t know, or whether out of the body, I don’t know; God knows), such a one caught up into the third heaven.
If Paul was unsure about his experience, whether it was an actual experience or a vision, how can you be so sure that he actually went to heaven as a human being?!
Who said that the new Jerusalem is physical? Remember that Revelation is full of symbols, not actual things. Are Christians going to become a physcical city? - Revelation 21:9-10 (WEB):
(9) One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, who were loaded with the seven last plagues came, and he spoke with me, saying, “Come here. I will show you the wife, the Lamb’s bride.”
(10) He carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
John 14:23 (WEB):
(23) Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.
How do God and Jesus live with all Christians currently? Are they physcially with us, or are they spirit beings, invisible to us and somehow able to be in many places at the same time?
You're assuming that in Daniel's vision (or dream) Jesus was a physical person in heaven, whereas it was just a symbolic vision/dream, not reality. Did Daniel also see God? Don't forget that:
Exodus 33:20
(20) He said, “You cannot see my face, for man may not see me and live.”
1 Timothy 6:16(16) who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.
Revelation 22:3-5 (WEB):
(3) There will be no curse any more. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will serve him.
(4) They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
(5) There will be no night, and they need no lamp light; for the Lord God will illuminate them. They will reign forever and ever.
The passage is referring to those inside the New Jerusalem, which is about 344 miles square and tall (symbolic?). Those living inside it serving God and reigning in God's Kingdom will be spiritual beings. God and the Angels, Jesus and the resurrected Christians, are invisible in the physical world, though God can give humans visions to enable them to see what may be invisibly around them. So heavenly light is probably different from physical light.
God doesn't tell us that. More to the point is that God created a physical universe and earth, and physical living beings to live on it, including mankind. It's different from the heavenly things, and we won't be able to understand the heavenly things until we are changed to become spirit beings like Jesus now is.
It says that God created the earth and the heavens, i.e. the sky - the night sky or the whole physical universe. It is not referring to God creating the heaven where He lives. It's confusing that the same word is used for sky, the visible universe and for the invisible place where God and the angels dwell.
Jude 1:6
(6) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
They somehow left there spirit bodies and took on human form. The Greek word that's translated as 'habitation' is the same word that Paul uses to describe our new spirit being bodies - 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 (WEB):
(1) For we know that if the earthly house of our tent [physical human body] is dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.
(2) For most certainly in this we groan, longing to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven;
Numbers 12:8 (KJV):
(8) With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
Moses saw a form, image, likeness, representation, semblance of God, or an angel taking on human form. Moses didn't see God's spirit being body - that's not possible. Isaiah 66:1 (WEB):
(1) Yahweh says, “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house will you build to me? Where will I rest?
Why would they need to be physical? Do you believe that Satan is a physical being?
God uses physical images to help us understand heavenly things. In Revelation Jesus is described differently on two occasions:
Revelation1 (WEB):
(13) And among the lamp stands was one like a son of man, clothed with a robe reaching down to his feet, and with a golden sash around his chest.
(14) His head and his hair were white as white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire.
(15) His feet were like burnished brass, as if it had been refined in a furnace. His voice was like the voice of many waters.
(16) He had seven stars in his right hand. Out of his mouth proceeded a sharp two-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining at its brightest.
Revelation 5:6 (WEB):
(6) I saw in the middle of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the middle of the elders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
Which is correct? Or are neither realistic descriptions of a heavenly spirit being? We are to become like Jesus (1 John 3:2), so are we destined to to look like a seven horned, seven eyed sheep, perhaps with a sword sticking out of our mouths? Or are those physical images just used to convey a message?
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Here's the deal.
IF you want to continue this discussion, stop discussing me. If you post on the material, great, if you post your ideas about me, it will be ignored.
You do understand, don't you, that I think that you are mistaken, badly mistaken? But I don't go on and on about how you "ignore verses", or "refuse to hear", are "rebelling against God", or any of that, right?
Those things have no place in this. If you think otherwise, OK, you have that right, but I'm not going to enable you. If you speak that way, there will be no need to look for a reply.
Much love!
No, he wrote that "every spirit who doesn’t confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God, and this is the spirit of the Antichrist" (1 John 4:3). It does not say that Jesus forever remains in the flesh. Attention to detail is important!
Jesus appeared in human form several times after his resurrection, in order to prove his resurrection to life, but he took on different human forms so that they mostly didn't initially recognise that it was him. Physical people can't do that.
At any time we take the word of man's interpretation as the truth of the word of God, then we begin to err.
Find out where you beliefs come from man or God!
Move away from the indoctrination of your church, or faith, and build up your beliefs in the Spirit. There was a time the soothing of believing in something that sounded good to my soul was beautiful. That covering is now removed.
The cold hard facts are that God is a jealous God, a consuming fire, and he alone must lead his ppl by his Spirit !
Be teachable, be a listener, yield yourselves under the mighty Spirit of God to cleanse the dross and purify the soul; not man.
Do not be content in what one believes but try the words we have heard and see if it be of God !
Find out where you beliefs come from man or God!
Move away from the indoctrination of your church, or faith, and build up your beliefs in the Spirit. There was a time the soothing of believing in something that sounded good to my soul was beautiful. That covering is now removed.
The cold hard facts are that God is a jealous God, a consuming fire, and he alone must lead his ppl by his Spirit !
Be teachable, be a listener, yield yourselves under the mighty Spirit of God to cleanse the dross and purify the soul; not man.
Do not be content in what one believes but try the words we have heard and see if it be of God !
Yes, the details are important.
That is the meaning of the Perfect Tense of "having come". It means He came in flesh, and that remains. It's antiChrist to deny that Jesus has come in the flesh, and remains in flesh. It's denying a physical resurrection, which is central to the Bible message.
They can't? Some things are impossible to God?
Jesus made a pointed effort to prove to the disciples He was physically present with them. He ate food to prove His was physically present. Are you saying Jesus was lying to His disciples?
Luke 24:37-43 KJV
37) But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38) And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40) And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41) And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42) And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43) And he took it, and did eat before them.
This was all a lie? I don't think so! God is true.
Much love!
God will preserve Israel! Not nationally, but spiritually. I've already shown how you have mistaken Israel of God with the nation or ethnic Israel according to race. God NEVER promised to preserve ethnic Jews, called Israel forever. The promises to them nationally were always dependent upon their obedience. He has ALWAYS promised to preserve the Israel of God that is of both Jew & Gentiles of faith.
God promised the nation they could live forever on the promised land of Canaan IF they did not break the Covenant He made exclusively with them. According to Joshua, as well as other OT writers, every single promise God made with the ethnic nation called Israel is completely fulfilled. Including the promise that they would lose the inheritance promised them through disobedience. After disobeying God and being cast away from Him forever as an ethnic people, confusing Israel of Old, an ethnic, Jewish nation, with Israel of God, you assume these Old Testament promises are to an ethnic people, failing to understand the eternal or everlasting promises to Israel throughout the Bible always pertains to people of faith. It matters not that they are Jews of faith or Gentiles of faith, when one has faith in Christ they belong to Israel of God and the eternal Covenant promises for everlasting life as well as inheriting not just the land of Canaan, but the whole new earth is always exclusively to them, "the Israel of God".
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
marks,
i never gave any interpretation = the Historical Grammatical Hermeneutics make the Scriptures Posted very clear.
Here they are again = John 3:27-36 , Matt 23:29-39 , Matt 24:1-3
John 3:27-36
John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ 29He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. 30He must increase, but I must decrease. 31He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 34For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Matt 23:29-39
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and [m]adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
31“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33Serpents, brood[n] of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
Matt 24:1-3
Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
@marks, Who is JESUS speaking to in Matt ch24 according to these Holy Scriptures?
This calls for a complete abandonment from religion.
Very few are able/willing to do this.
@David in NJ
Yes, I know.
It can be done and must be done.
I have given up NOTHING but to seek the truth of the word of God, for all is dung except to be a part of God's kingdom, and his promise !
Yes, I know.
It can be done and must be done.
I have given up NOTHING but to seek the truth of the word of God, for all is dung except to be a part of God's kingdom, and his promise !
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
And what does it mean mark . Time to answer .
Cause most folks are seeing this through the physical realm as they do other scrips too .
Most folks are seeing this as a THIRD PHYSICAL TEMPLE that men are gonna build
over IN JERSUALEM . IT AINT mark .
TRY reading acts chapter fifteen . . ITS HEAVENLY MARK .
Hey, just out of left field here . . . do you believe that Jesus was Michael the Archangel having taken on the form of Jesus for the offering of the sacrifice? I'm just wondering.
Much love!
And will David rule over Israel there? Will the Apostles judge the 12 tribes in heaven? Is that the idea?
Much love!
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
And let us stay DUG in the bible my dear sister . many folks have no idea
how much doctrines of men have infiltrated the church .
Time we simply follow the LAMB and learn those bibles for ourselves .
In about every denomination i have found they have many doctrinal teachings of men , which have actually
caused errors . And if any man is thinking about getting some kind of theological serminary training
MY ADVICE is dont bother . They will teach you about twenty percent of the bible ,at most
and even that twenty percent will be twisted to whatever view the theological school adheres too .
ITS TIME FOR BIBLES to be opened . THE LORD IS WITH US , HE will guide and lead us .
And true men will be built up who can help instruct as well .
WE must really get a good strong hold on BIBLICAL TRUTH .
IF , if i were in charge of rearing up elders in the church , leaders or pastors ,
DO you know what i would say on day one of the learning .
HERE IS THE BIBLE , GO AHEAD AND THROW AWAY everything you learned from men .
WE GONNA GET IN THIS BOOK and we gonna learn it for OURSELVES .
THEN they would be tested in time . Too much nonsense has been added into christanity .
ITS TIME we begin anew and afresh as did the FIRST TRUE CHURCH .
BIBLE TIME .
How does your question relate towards whether or not God keeps His promises? I believe God keeps His promises, and that prophecy will be fulfilled.
Tell me something . . . prophecies that have already been fulfilled . . . how did it happen? Literally as the prophecy spoke it? Or in some other "spiritual" way.
Well, a literal baby was literally born from a literal virgin mother. The baby grew up into a literal Man, who performed literal miracles, and literally died on a literal cross.
The literal nation of Israel was literally expelled from a literal homeland, to be literally exiled throughout the literal nations. They will be literally regathered to their literally homeland.
Much love!
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
THE KING according to that lineage will . GO READ acts mark .
You keep looking for the physcial , WHEN ITS ALL ABOUT THE SPIRITUAL KINGDOM .
Folks act like not one jew is gonna end up in the lake of fire .
THAT AINT TRUE MARK . SO all of israel , MEANS ALL OF JESUS CHRIST . THATS YOUR KING , THAT IS ISRAEL .
OUT OF EYGPT HAVE I CALLED MY SON .
You ever wonder why the book of mathew uses that phrase .
I mean initially it was for when GOD had called israel of of eygpt . BUT ALL OF A SUDDEN
the writer of mathew is using it FOR THE BIGGER PICTURE . OUT OF EYGPT have i called MY SON .
TIME to see the big picture mark . THIS IS ALL ABOUT GOD , ABOUT CHRIST . not about the flesh at all .
The flesh profits nothing .
GOD made PROMISES to the peoples . BUT NOTICE when they broke his convenant , THEY WERE CAST OUT
of the very LAND PROMISED TO THEM .
GOD dont accept a man according to WHETHER HE BE A JEW OR A GENTILE .
IF a jew heeds him not , LOOK OUT
if a gentile heeds him not , LOOK OUT .
OH the true heavenly jerusalem WILL ONE DAY DESCEND in the natural area.
BUT ANY JEW and any gentile that REJECTED JESUS , WONT BE IN IT but rather the lake of fire awaits them all .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
You already know the answer to that one . Micheal is not JESUS . As you already know that .
But that was a good question to ask him .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
SON OF DAVID , have mercy on me . THAT IS WHO its talking about mark when it says david shall rule over them .
SON OF DAVID . THE PROMISED KING OF ISRAEL . IT IS JESUS CHRIST
only not all of natural israel IS OF TRUE ISRAEL . WE NEED TO KNOW THIS my friends .
SON OF DAVID . THE PROMISED KING OF ISRAEL . IT IS JESUS CHRIST
only not all of natural israel IS OF TRUE ISRAEL . WE NEED TO KNOW THIS my friends .
Marks, can you provide the verses that speak of David specifically ruling over Israel that now is a physical nation? There are several verses pointing to the seed of David, which is Christ ruling over His people. Below for example. When you speak of David ruling over an ethnic people, called Israel now, are you sure you didn't mean to say the 'SEED", Christ, of David would rule over His spiritual people, Israel of God forever?
John 7:42 (KJV) Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
Romans 1:3 (KJV) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
2 Timothy 2:8 (KJV) Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
Since the Bible points to Christ, the SEED of David ruling over a Kingdom, would you be surprised to learn that Christ is NOW and has been since His ascension to heaven ruling over the spiritual Kingdom He has already received? A Kingdom that shall never be destroyed.
Acts 1:2 (KJV) Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
Acts 1:9-11 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
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