I have noticed the following Negatives about the 'rapture'...

[marks]

a.) Who is the Bride and the BrideGroom of John 3:27-36

John 3:27-36 KJV
27) John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
28) Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29) He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30) He must increase, but I must decrease.
31) He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32) And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33) He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34) For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35) The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

In point of fact the passage doesn't state the identity of the bride. So however someone may answer invites their speculation unless they have directly parallel passages with which to compare.

Mark 2:18-22 KJV
18) And the disciples of John and of the Pharisees used to fast: and they come and say unto him, Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but thy disciples fast not?
19) And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.
20) But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.
21) No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.
22) And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

Jesus speaks of the bridegroom, and the "children of the bridechamber", as the bridegroom is with them, to be taken away. This is not explicit either, though there seems to me to be a sense of immediacy, that the wedding is soon, everyone is ready, celebrating.

Seriously, the picture that emerges to me is that we see the best man, and the Groom, Who was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. That He's here for His bride.

So we have to go out further in our search, and I find two particular sets of passages which appear to speak to the issue.

One set is the number of verses which compare the church to a bride. None of them outright calls the church a bride, however, that simile is used very particularly in several places.

The other is the number of verses which speak of the nation of Israel being wed to God, then divorced, but then promised to be re-wed to Him. These are stated in just those terms, that Israel was married to God, and put away, to be remarried.

And here in the Gospels we see Jesus, sent to the lost sheep of Isreal, a Bridegroom, the Best Man ready, and the bride?

I guess that's the question you are asking. The one to whom He was sent. The one who was there with Him. The one who was promised to Him.

b.) Who is Christ addressing/speaking to Matt 23:29-39

It would be helpful to me if you would post the verses, and hightlight anything in particular you have in mind. Just the same . . .

Matthew 23:29-39 KJV
29) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30) And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32) Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39) For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Jesus addresses first the scribes and Pharisees, and secondly Jerusalem. To the scribes and Pharisees, He askes them how can they escape hell? I hear a pleading in His voice, Listen! Turn! He knows they won't, and what will come upon them.

To Jerusalem, He mourns over their impending loss, as the doings of their leaders will bring down upon their heads, and their children, unspeakable horror. And even in the saying, He still prophesies a remnent to receive Him in a time to come.

c.) Who is Christ addressing/speaking to in Matt 24:1-3

marks, take your time and be at PEACE in Christ's words

Matthew 24:1-3 KJV
1) And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2) And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Here, His disciples. That could include the 12 men whom Jesus chose to be with Him, and could also include all those whom the Father had drawn to Him, the greater group of disciples. Again we need parallel passages, of which we have a direct parallel that answers the question.

Mark 13:1-4 KJV
1) And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2) And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4) Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

These 4.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

John 3:27-36 KJV
27) John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
28) Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29) He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30) He must increase, but I must decrease.
31) He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32) And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33) He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34) For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35) The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

In point of fact the passage doesn't state the identity of the bride. So however someone may answer invites their speculation unless they have directly parallel passages with which to compare.

Mark 2:18-22 KJV
18) And the disciples of John and of the Pharisees used to fast: and they come and say unto him, Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but thy disciples fast not?
19) And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.
20) But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.
21) No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.
22) And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

Jesus speaks of the bridegroom, and the "children of the bridechamber", as the bridegroom is with them, to be taken away. This is not explicit either, though there seems to me to be a sense of immediacy, that the wedding is soon, everyone is ready, celebrating.

Seriously, the picture that emerges to me is that we see the best man, and the Groom, Who was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. That He's here for His bride.

So we have to go out further in our search, and I find two particular sets of passages which appear to speak to the issue.

One set is the number of verses which compare the church to a bride. None of them outright calls the church a bride, however, that simile is used very particularly in several places.

The other is the number of verses which speak of the nation of Israel being wed to God, then divorced, but then promised to be re-wed to Him. These are stated in just those terms, that Israel was married to God, and put away, to be remarried.

And here in the Gospels we see Jesus, sent to the lost sheep of Isreal, a Bridegroom, the Best Man ready, and the bride?

I guess that's the question you are asking. The one to whom He was sent. The one who was there with Him. The one who was promised to Him.

It would be helpful to me if you would post the verses, and hightlight anything in particular you have in mind. Just the same . . .

Matthew 23:29-39 KJV
29) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30) And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32) Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39) For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Jesus addresses first the scribes and Pharisees, and secondly Jerusalem. To the scribes and Pharisees, He askes them how can they escape hell? I hear a pleading in His voice, Listen! Turn!

To Jerusalem, He mourns over their impending loss, as the doings of their leaders will bring down upon their heads, and their children, unspeakable horror. And even in the saying, He still prophesies a remnent to receive Him in a time to come.

Matthew 24:1-3 KJV
1) And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2) And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Here, His disciples. That could include the 12 men whom Jesus chose to be with Him, and could also include all those whom the Father had drawn to Him, the greater group of disciples. Again we need parallel passages, of which we have a direct parallel that answers the question.

Mark 13:1-4 KJV
1) And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2) And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4) Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

These 4.

Much love!

i realized that some key verses were left out(not on purpose) and so let us take another look.

Here is another LOOK at John 3:22-39 and let us readdress question a.) Who is the bride and the bridegroom?

After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized. 23Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized. 24For John had not yet been thrown into prison.

25Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. 26And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”

27John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ 29He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. 30He must increase, but I must decrease. 31He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 34For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

 

[marks]

Here is another LOOK at John 3:22-39 and let us readdress question a.) Who is the bride and the bridegroom?

I've answered your question, beginning from the verses you posted. Do you have comment on my reply to you? A question? I put a lot into my reply to you. No comment?

Much love!

 

[marks]

After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized. 23Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized. 24For John had not yet been thrown into prison.

25Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. 26And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”

The verses you've added don't seem to affect my answer to you, being on a different topic.

Much love!

 

[marks]

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you,
you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Revelation 19:6-13 KJV
6) And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7) Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9) And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10) And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Do you see how this all fits together?

Have you ever asked yourself that question, "How does the church make herself ready for Jesus to come?" We are justified in Christ, it's His righteousness. He is made unto us all that is in salvation. We do nothing to "make ourself ready" to meet Jesus. In fact He already lives in us, we are already His body, flesh of His flesh, bone of His bone. We are in a relationship with Jesus of which marraige is but a picture.

Hear Paul as he says, "for this reason" they are married, for what reason? The one he just gave. Because we are flesh and bone of Jesus Christ.

How can the Bride make herself ready? Jesus gave the answer. When she will say, Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the LORD.

And then He will come, and His Name is called, The Word of God.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

The verses you've added don't seem to affect my answer to you, being on a different topic.

Much love!

@marks,

If you remember, i had complete hip replacement surgery and a couple of setbacks with the most recent one 10 days ago.
Not feeling my best right now.
Please allow me to respond to your Posts #436, 437, 438 either later tonight or tomorrow.

Thank You my Brother

If you do not hear from me tonight i say - Good Night and Peace

 

[marks]

@marks,

If you remember, i had complete hip replacement surgery and a couple of setbacks with the most recent one 10 days ago.
Not feeling my best right now.
Please allow me to respond to your Posts #436, 437, 438 either later tonight or tomorrow.

Thank You my Brother

If you do not hear from me tonight i say - Good Night and Peace

When you feel well! I hope you get good rest! I've learned that the more still I am, the better I heal. I hope you heal well!

Much love!

 

[keithr]

That is the meaning of the Perfect Tense of "having come". It means He came in flesh, and that remains. It's antiChrist to deny that Jesus has come in the flesh, and remains in flesh. It's denying a physical resurrection, which is central to the Bible message.

Then again, the Cambridge Bible Notes states:

confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh] On overwhelming evidence (AB, Coptic, Aethiopic, Vulgate, &c.) we must omit the words ‘that Christ is come in the flesh’, retaining only confesseth not Jesus: the additional words are an obvious interpolation by one who wished to make the two sides of the antithesis exactly equal. But, as we have repeatedly seen (1Jn_1:5-8; 1Jn_1:10, 1Jn_2:10; 1Jn_2:22-23, &c.), this is rarely the case in S. John’s oppositions.​

Therefore modern translations render it as, for example:

ASV: (3) and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: ...​

ESV: (3) and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. ...​

TLV: (3) but every spirit that does not acknowledge Yeshua is not from God. ...​

ISV: (3) But every spirit who does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. ...​

So we should perhaps concentrate on verse 2:

WEB: (2) By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,​

Or as the GNB translates it:

(2) This is how you will be able to know whether it is God's Spirit: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus Christ came as a human being has the Spirit who comes from God.​

The test is that we are to believe that Jesus did come as a man, not that he just descended into an already existing man (as Cerinthus said) or that he took on a temporarily used human form like angels have done (and as Jesus did on a number of occasions after his resurrection), but we are to believe that Jesus "became flesh" (John 1:14), that he really was 100% a man. Similarly, John earlier in his letter wrote, 1 John 2:22 (WEB):

(22) Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the Antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.​

We are to believe that Jesus, the man, was the Messiah. John also wrote, in the same letter, 1 John 3:2 (WEB):

(2) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is.​

So to harmonise his writings we have to conclude that in 4:2 he did not mean that Jesus is foerever a human being. Just as we will be changed when we are resurrected, so was Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (WEB):

(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.​

Jesus made a pointed effort to prove to the disciples He was physically present with them. He ate food to prove His was physically present. Are you saying Jesus was lying to His disciples?

No. He had appeared to them in a human form to prove that he was alive (think of it as an avatar if that helps ;) ). But he no longer has a human nature - he is no longer "lower than the angels" - Hebrews 2:9 (ESV):

(9) But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.​

 

[keithr]

Hey, just out of left field here . . . do you believe that Jesus was Michael the Archangel having taken on the form of Jesus for the offering of the sacrifice? I'm just wondering.

No, I don't think there is any evidence to deduce that. Michael is described as just "one of the chief princes/angels", i.e. one of the archangels, a chief angel appointed to watch over the nation of Israel (Daniel 12:1). All angels were created by God's son, Jesus (Colossians 1:16), so I don't think it's likely that Jesus, before and after he was changed by God from a spirit being to a human being, was an archangel. Peter says, 1 Peter 3:22 (WEB):

(22) [Jesus] who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being made subject to him.​

so Jesus is superior to all angels now. Paul also wrote that before Jesus was made flesh he existed in the form of God, not an angel (Philippians 2:6).

 

[keithr]

Do you believe what this passage claims? As written?

Jeremiah 30:7-11 KJV
7) Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8) For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9) But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10) Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11) For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

Do you believe that the man Jacob/Israel is scattered to lots of nations? The phrase "Therefore don’t be afraid, O Jacob my servant, says Yahweh. Don’t be dismayed, Israel. For, behold, I will save you from afar, and save your offspring from the land of their captivity. Jacob will return, and will be quiet and at ease. No one will make him afraid", is obviously referring to the nation/peoples of Israel, not to the single man called Jacob and then Israel. Likewise "David their king, whom I will raise up to them" is referring to a descendent of David, the Messiah. See also, Jeremiah 23:5-6 (WEB):

(5) “Behold, the days come,” says Yahweh, “that I will raise to David a righteous Branch, and he will reign as king and deal wisely, and will execute justice and righteousness in the land.​

(6) In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely. This is his name by which he will be called: Yahweh our righteousness.​

Similarly another messianic prohecy is Isaiah 11:1-10 (WEB):

(1) A shoot will come out of the stock of Jesse [David's father], and a branch out of his roots will bear fruit.​

(2) Yahweh’s Spirit will rest on him: the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Yahweh.​

(3) His delight will be in the fear of Yahweh. He will not judge by the sight of his eyes, neither decide by the hearing of his ears;​

(4) but with righteousness he will judge the poor, and decide with equity for the humble of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips he will kill the wicked.​

(5) Righteousness will be the belt of his waist, and faithfulness the belt of his waist.​

(6) The wolf will live with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the young goat; The calf, the young lion, and the fattened calf together; and a little child will lead them.​

(7) The cow and the bear will graze. Their young ones will lie down together. The lion will eat straw like the ox.​

(8) The nursing child will play near a cobra’s hole, and the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den.​

(9) They will not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth will be full of the knowledge of Yahweh, as the waters cover the sea.​

(10) It will happen in that day that the nations will seek the root of Jesse, who stands as a banner of the peoples; and his resting place will be glorious.​

 

[marks]

No, I don't think there is any evidence to deduce that. Michael is described as just "one of the chief princes/angels", i.e. one of the archangels, a chief angel appointed to watch over the nation of Israel (Daniel 12:1). All angels were created by God's son, Jesus (Colossians 1:16), so I don't think it's likely that Jesus, before and after he was changed by God from a spirit being to a human being, was an archangel. Peter says, 1 Peter 3:22 (WEB):

(22) [Jesus] who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being made subject to him.​

so Jesus is superior to all angels now. Paul also wrote that before Jesus was made flesh he existed in the form of God, not an angel (Philippians 2:6).

Like I said, from left field. Something you wrote reminded me of what someone else who thought that has said once, so I was curious.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Then again, the Cambridge Bible Notes states:

confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh] On overwhelming evidence (AB, Coptic, Aethiopic, Vulgate, &c.) we must omit the words ‘that Christ is come in the flesh’, retaining only confesseth not Jesus: the additional words are an obvious interpolation by one who wished to make the two sides of the antithesis exactly equal. But, as we have repeatedly seen (1Jn_1:5-8; 1Jn_1:10, 1Jn_2:10; 1Jn_2:22-23, &c.), this is rarely the case in S. John’s oppositions.

That's where we get to the manuscript family, I believe the majority manuscript is the best. So we are coming at our answers from different directions.

I do notice however that both verses 2 and 3 use the perfect tense, so it seems the same thing applies in both cases.

Do you agree with Majority Manuscript reading of verse 2?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Do you believe that the man Jacob/Israel is scattered to lots of nations? The phrase "Therefore don’t be afraid, O Jacob my servant, says Yahweh. Don’t be dismayed, Israel. For, behold, I will save you from afar, and save your offspring from the land of their captivity. Jacob will return, and will be quiet and at ease. No one will make him afraid", is obviously referring to the nation/peoples of Israel, not to the single man called Jacob and then Israel. Likewise "David their king, whom I will raise up to them" is referring to a descendent of David, the Messiah. See also, Jeremiah 23:5-6 (WEB):

That's a good sounding argument for your view.

I look a lot at the patterns of usage, and there seems to me to be a stong pattern of clear contextual usage for Israel/Jacob to refer to the nation, just like Ephraem is used to refer to the northern kingdom. Metynomy, I think they call that.

I'm trying to think of places where "David" is used for Christ, where the context is clear about that, can you think of any? Where we can see from the context that it's actually being used that way?

Much love!

 

[keithr]

Do you agree with Majority Manuscript reading of verse 2?

As I thought I explained, I believe that "is come" or "has come" or "came" means that Jesus did indeed come as a man, and he was a man until three days after his death, when he was made an immortal spirit being. So he is no longer a man.

 

[marks]

As I thought I explained, I believe that "is come" or "has come" or "came" means that Jesus did indeed come as a man, and he was a man until three days after his death, when he was made an immortal spirit being. So he is no longer a man.

Are you familiar with the grammatical tenses? The timing of the verbs? "has come" in these verses is the Perfect Tense. This means the verse is speaking of something that happened, with lasting effect.

An easy example is a bell. When you cast a bell, and it's not been rung yet, it's an unrung bell. Then you ring it, and it's been rung. In the perfect tense, this means it's now a "rung bell", and it will never again be an unrung bell.

Its in this same way that every one who confesses Jesus Christ as come in flesh . . . as I understand the grammer, it doesn't allow that Jesus stopped being in flesh. Now, there are different kinds of flesh, that's for sure!

Jesus died a physical man, and rose a physical man, as He proved to His disciples.

What are your thoughts on Jesus eating in front of them, inviting them to touch Him so they could experience that He was in fact physically there?

Much love!

 

[rwb]

As I thought I explained, I believe that "is come" or "has come" or "came" means that Jesus did indeed come as a man, and he was a man until three days after his death, when he was made an immortal spirit being. So he is no longer a man.

Since Christ was indeed fully human, would He not also be fully immortal in human form from birth since He was conceived by the Holy Spirit?

 

[keithr]

I'm trying to think of places where "David" is used for Christ, where the context is clear about that, can you think of any? Where we can see from the context that it's actually being used that way?

A similar verse is Hosea 3:5 (WEB):

(5) Afterward the children of Israel shall return, and seek Yahweh their God, and David their king, and shall come with trembling to Yahweh and to his blessings in the last days.​

Albert Barnes' Bible Notes says:

And David their King - David himself, after the flesh, this could not be. For he had long since been gathered to his fathers; nor was he to return to this earth. “David” then must be “the Son of David,” the same, of whom God says, “I will set up One Shepherd over them, and He shall feed them, even My servant David, and He shall be their Shepherd, and I the Lord will be their God, and My servant David a Prince among them” Eze_34:23-24. The same was to be a “witness, leader, commander to the people Isa_55:4; He who was to be “raised up to David Jer_23:5-6, a righteous Branch,” and who was to “be called the Lord our Righteousness; David’s Lord” Psa_110:1, as well as “David’s Son.” Whence the older Jews, of every school, Talmudic, mystical, Biblical, grammatical, explained this prophecy, of Christ. Thus their received paraphrase is: “Afterward the children of Israel shall repent, or turn by repentance, and shall seek the service of the Lord their God, and shall obey Messiah the Son of David, their King” .​

 

[marks]

A similar verse is Hosea 3:5 (WEB):

(5) Afterward the children of Israel shall return, and seek Yahweh their God, and David their king, and shall come with trembling to Yahweh and to his blessings in the last days.​

The Cambridge Bible Notes says:

And David their King - David himself, after the flesh, this could not be. For he had long since been gathered to his fathers; nor was he to return to this earth. “David” then must be “the Son of David,” the same, of whom God says, “I will set up One Shepherd over them, and He shall feed them, even My servant David, and He shall be their Shepherd, and I the Lord will be their God, and My servant David a Prince among them” Eze_34:23-24. The same was to be a “witness, leader, commander to the people Isa_55:4; He who was to be “raised up to David Jer_23:5-6, a righteous Branch,” and who was to “be called the Lord our Righteousness; David’s Lord” Psa_110:1, as well as “David’s Son.” Whence the older Jews, of every school, Talmudic, mystical, Biblical, grammatical, explained this prophecy, of Christ. Thus their received paraphrase is: “Afterward the children of Israel shall repent, or turn by repentance, and shall seek the service of the Lord their God, and shall obey Messiah the Son of David, their King” .​

Except that David will be raised up to be king over them, yes? I don't see that a valid objection, "But David is dead." It sounds like the argument is, "It doesn't mean David because it can't mean David."

Is there something in Hosea that indicates this isn't actually David?

Much love!

 

[keithr]

Since Christ was indeed fully human, would He not also be fully immortal in human form from birth since He was conceived by the Holy Spirit?

No. Human bodies are not immortal (which means 'cannot possibly die', as opposed to mortal which means 'can possibly die') - they can be killed at any time. If Jesus had an immortal human body then he could not have died - he could not have paid the ransom price.

Because he was conceived by God's Holy Spirit Jesus was born with a perfect human body, i.e. he did not inherit a sinful nature from his parents. He continued to live a sinless life - he was "without sin" (Hebrew 4:15). Jesus' human body was like ours, but was not sinful - Romans 8:3 (WEB):

(3) For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh;​

 

[rwb]

No. Human bodies are not immortal (which means 'cannot possibly die', as opposed to mortal which means 'can possibly die') - they can be killed at any time. If Jesus had an immortal human body then he could not have died - he could not have paid the ransom price.

Because he was conceived by God's Holy Spirit Jesus was born with a perfect human body, i.e. he did not inherit a sinful nature from his parents. He continued to live a sinless life - he was "without sin" (Hebrew 4:15). Jesus' human body was like ours, but was not sinful - Romans 8:3 (WEB):

(3) For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh;​

Yes, I understand what you mean, every human body, including the body of Christ is destined to die. Which of course He did die physically. And because human bodies shall not be immortal until the last trumpet sounds and the bodies of the saints are raised and changed to immortal & incorruptible, indeed they will not be immortal before that.

Never meant to imply Jesus' body was immortal, and yes I agree, He was without sin. I'm wondering what you believe regarding the Holy Spirit from whom Christ was procreated. Would you not agree that since the Holy Spirit from birth made Christ spiritually alive, then like the Holy Spirit in Him, His spirit too is immortal even though His body was destined to die?

1 Timothy 1:17 (KJV) Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Colossians 1:12-17 (KJV) Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

And if the Spirit in Christ is immortal, as He is, how do we reconcile that with His natural humanity and physical death that came through His human mother?