I have noticed the following Negatives about the 'rapture'...

[marks]

The times of restitution began when Christ came to earth a man.

Acts 3:20-21 KJV
20) And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

That time had not yet come when Peter spoke these words.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

You build this up in your mind but you are not defining me, only accusing me.

Much love!

Answering the a,b,c questions from SCRIPTURE defines what you believe (and me and all who seek TRUTH)

 

[marks]

Where in this passage does it say or even imply that David will serve as king on this earth?

Jeremiah 30:7-10 KJV
7) Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8) For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9) But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10) Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

Do you know the idiom, "return your captivity"? This is an express that speaks of bringing them back to their homeland. I know you don't receive this from me, but if you do your own word study you will readily see this.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Answering the a,b,c questions from SCRIPTURE defines what you believe (and me and all who seek TRUTH)

I answered your questions previously. I think I asked you to redefine one of them, or something, I don't remember, but if you are calling me infidel or whatever you think, "rebel against God", because you think I didn't answer your questions, maybe go back and look over the thread first.

Or if you feel something is missing feel free to post it. But the more rude you are the less interested I am. I've enjoyed engaging with you, but I hope you are hearing me.

Much love!

 

[rwb]

Acts 3:20-21 KJV
20) And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

That time had not yet come when Peter spoke these words.

Much love!

The times of restitution began with Christ coming to earth a man, giving His life for sin, and resurrecting from the dead. As the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world, the times of restitution/restoration of all things is commencing. Until the times of restoration is complete, Christ is reigning over His people in the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. When the restoration is complete, Christ will come again and the faithful saints shall live with Him forever on the new earth, because this earth will be utterly consumed by fire from heaven, and shall be made new again.

 

[ScottA]

Here lies the difficulty with everyone agreeing with the same conclusions; our interpretations hinges on other definitions and foundational beliefs.

Specifically I'm referring to the difference between who will be in heaven and where each goes after death but before the resurrection spoke of in Ezek 37, Isa 26:19-20, job 19:25-27, Psa 16:8-11, 49:13-15, 71:20, and Dan 12:2-3.

I know that Helinism took root early in the Church, but don't know the full extent of its influence on our western Christian world view. The 5 New testament Bible verses that are quickly referenced any time someone suggests an alternative to being physically present in heaven with Jesus before the rapture are not very solid and most, when contextually examined, seem to suggest they support the opposition view.

Curious of your thoughts as ones believe in topics such as this influences other beliefs such as eschatological views.

Maranatha!

Every influence is like the waves that toss a ship, in this case the ship of destiny regarding these times of the gentiles. But the greater cause, what in fact creates the multitude of influences, is the nature of mankind being a fallen kind.

Essentially, the false teachings within the church that have come to fruition as "strong delusion" and "great apostacy", was and is because of that foretold "lie" which the apostle Paul only eluded to; which is: the insistent use of "days and months and seasons and years." Think about it, Jesus came preaching "the kingdom of God is like..." repeating over and over the terms that all things of God occur within, as "the same yesterday, today, and forever", saying "I am", "I am", "I am"-- and the comeback was "when shall these things be?" as if He didn't just tell them! Oh yes, He also said "then" and "then" and "when" as if "these things" actually occur on a timeline that doesn't exist in the kingdom of God and only in this world which is "not of this world." But why even ask Jesus, if all you want to know is the things of this world? But no, they asked about the things of God, and He answered them accordingly...but then they assumed that it was all according to the ways and times of this world (which they are not), as do most even to this day. So, here we are with most still believing the lie and carrying on in delusion according to the terms of this world, rather than adopting the terms of the kingdom. Therefore, He said, "the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”

 

[David in NJ]

Jeremiah 30:7-10 KJV
7) Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8) For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9) But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10) Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

Do you know the idiom, "return your captivity"? This is an express that speaks of bringing them back to their homeland. I know you don't receive this from me, but if you do your own word study you will readily see this.

Much love!

Spiritual Understanding of OT Prophecy is found here in Acts

For David says concerning Him:

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’

29“Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, Acts 2 NKJVaccording to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

34“For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’

36“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified,
both Lord and Christ.”

 

[marks]

The times of restitution began with Christ coming to earth a man, giving His life for sin, and resurrecting from the dead.

I'm going to stick with this:

Acts 3:19-21 KJV
19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20) And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

This is clear.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

I answered you questions previously. I think I asked you to redefine one of them, or something, I don't remember, but if you are calling me infidel or whatever you think, "rebel against God", because you think I didn't answer your questions, maybe go back and look over the thread first.

Or if you feel something is missing feel free to post it. But the more rude you are the less interested I am. I've enjoyed engaging with you, but I hope you are hearing me.

Much love!

i had to step out and go to the Dentist

Could you please give me the Post - Thank You

 

[rwb]

Jeremiah 30:7-10 KJV
7) Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8) For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9) But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10) Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

Do you know the idiom, "return your captivity"? This is an express that speaks of bringing them back to their homeland. I know you don't receive this from me, but if you do your own word study you will readily see this.

Much love!

Jeremiah is talking about them returning to their land after seventy years of captivity. This prophesy was fulfilled when Jerusalem was restored and the second Temple that had been destroyed was rebuilt.

 

[rwb]

I'm going to stick with this:

Acts 3:19-21 KJV
19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20) And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

This is clear.

Much love!

What exactly are you sticking with? Quoting this passage tells me nothing of what you believe it means???

 

[marks]

Answering the a,b,c questions from SCRIPTURE defines what you believe (and me and all who seek TRUTH)

Post 278.

Also, there was another question I asked, How and when will God restore Israel?

Much love!

 

[marks]

What exactly are you sticking with? Quoting this passage tells me nothing of what you believe it means???

What I said before.

AT the them Peter spoke these words, the times of restitution were still future. So those times did not begin when Jesus came previous to that.

Much love!

 

[rwb]

What I said before.

AT the them Peter spoke these words, the times of restitution were still future. So those times did not begin when Jesus came previous to that.

Much love!

The times of restitution Peter spoke of had begun, and will not be complete until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete when the last Gentile to be saved enters into the Kingdom by grace through faith. The restitution or restoration of all things began when Christ came with His Kingdom. When His Kingdom is complete, all things shall be made new or restored, restitution of all things shall be finished.

Luke 11:20 (KJV) But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

 

[marks]

Jeremiah is talking about them returning to their land after seventy years of captivity. This prophesy was fulfilled when Jerusalem was restored and the second Temple that had been destroyed was rebuilt.

Jeremiah 30:7-11 KJV
7) Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8) For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9) But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10) Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11) For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

To be driven out yet again? Or to return, to be in rest, and quite, and without any to make them fearful?

Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Do you see the same thing here?

Much love!

 

[marks]

The times of restitution Peter spoke of had begun,

Peter said that the times of restitution shall come, not had come, and I'm sticking with what he said. This is a simple thing, the tense of a verb that is clearly expressed.

Is this another case where I'm believing the Word as written and you are not? That it says, "shall come", but means, "already did come"?

That dynamic seems to be at the bottom of nearly every disagreement I have with about anyone over Scripture. It says THIS but means THAT.

But we don't have the authority to change His Word, and let no man be found trying!

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Post 278.

Also, there was another question I asked, How and when will God restore Israel?

Much love!

YES, read the Post #278

Since your answers were centered on the fleshly nation of Israel as opposed to the specific questions i updated them for you.

Post #374 has the updated and simplified questions

Here they are again:

a.) Who is the Bride and the BrideGroom of John 3:27-36

b.) Who is Christ addressing/speaking to Matt 23:29-39

c.) Who is Christ addressing/speaking to in Matt 24:1-3

marks, take your time and be at PEACE in Christ's words

 

[ScottA]

When Paul writes, "but each one in his own order" he is NOT speaking of the rapture of our bodies in an hour coming, when the last trump sounds, when Christ returns. Paul is speaking of the raising of the dead in Christ after their bodies have died. The instruction from Paul regarding those who had already died before Christ came begins in 1Cor 15:12. He says Christ has been raised from the dead which proves the dead IN CHRIST, though physically dead are not spiritually dead. They are alive because Christ has defeated death, and all who die in Him will spiritually ascend to heaven where Christ is. For this reason Paul says, "but each one in his own order." That's why those who had already died believing in Christ have not perished, because since Christ is the sacrifice for sin, and by His resurrection He defeated death, death is no more for whosoever is of faith in Him.

Scripture is abundantly clear that believers shall suffer in this life. And this is associated with the proclamation of the Gospel being sent unto all the nations of the world. It is "AFTER" the tribulation of all the days that have come and shall come as the Gospel is preached that Christ will return again, and even though we don't know when that day shall be, every eye shall Him when He comes to make all things new again.

You (and most of Christendom for 2,000 years) are trying to fit the kingdom and the events thereof into this world and its timeline which cannot and does not contain them. The kingdom of God, is not of this world.

In that greater kingdom reality, the rapture and the resurrection are only one "caught up" event. "But each one in his own order", which refers only to this side of the equation, to our passing from this world--from death to life. For which Paul then also states that, "the last enemy that will be destroyed is death"-- because it is of death that is the "day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

 

[MatthewG]

That can be a good idea. For myself, well, I do in fact consult study Bibles some times, that's another form of a commentary, and I look at commentaries some times.

For the most part, I read various translations, and I look at the Greek wording. I've had some Koine Greek schooling, and have continued to pursue my studies, but I'm not expert, that's for certain!

I do lot's of "word studies", looking at every place a certain Greek word is used, how it's used, how it's affected by it's context, like that. I find that very useful. Not just the concordance for English word translations, that's not the same.

It was in 2001 that God just "switched off" my desire to read just books (I've been a voracious reader all my life), and switched on "I want to know the Bible", and I've been at it since. So now the Bible is (99.9%) the only Book I'm interested in. There have been a few that I've spent the time reading. A couple are,

Walk In the Light While there is Light - Leo Tolstoy - Excellent book!!

The Heavenly Trilogy - Harry Blamires - Allegory along the lines of Lewis or Bunyon

Much love!

Good on you then Marks.

 

[MatthewG]

You (and most of Christendom for 2,000 years) are trying to fit the kingdom and the events thereof into this world and its timeline which cannot and does not contain them. The kingdom of God, is not of this world.

In that greater kingdom reality, the rapture and the resurrection are only one "caught up" event. "But each one in his own order", which refers only to this side of the equation, to our passing from this world--from death to life. For which Paul then also states that, "the last enemy that will be destroyed is death"-- because it is of death that is the "day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

Yep people can believe however they see fit for them and their subjectivity with God, and all people are responsible for themselves along between God; though we are to encourage others to seek after the Lord to, but some times the parable of the sower comes about and thus, some hear, some dont, some grasp but only for a short time, and some grasp for their whole livelyhood banking on the goodness of God through the good soil.