I have noticed the following Negatives about the 'rapture'...

[keithr]

Except that David will be raised up to be king over them, yes? I don't see that a valid objection, "But David is dead." It sounds like the argument is, "It doesn't mean David because it can't mean David."

I'm not aware of any verses that suggest that Israel shall have a human king reigning over them for eternity. The only king of God's kingdom will be Jesus. After all, God never wanted the Israelites to have a human king in the Old Testament days, but they insisted - from 1 Samuel (WEB):

8:5-7

(5) They said to him, “Behold, you are old, and your sons don’t walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.”​

(6) But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” Samuel prayed to Yahweh.​

(7) Yahweh said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people in all that they tell you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me as the king over them.​

10:18-24

(18) and he said to the children of Israel, “Yahweh, the God of Israel, says ‘I brought Israel up out of Egypt, and I delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of all the kingdoms that oppressed you.’​

(19) But you have today rejected your God, who himself saves you out of all your calamities and your distresses; and you have said to him, ‘No! Set a king over us.’ Now therefore present yourselves before Yahweh by your tribes, and by your thousands.”​

(20) So Samuel brought all the tribes of Israel near, and the tribe of Benjamin was chosen.​

(21) He brought the tribe of Benjamin near by their families; and the family of the Matrites was chosen. Then Saul the son of Kish was chosen; but when they looked for him, he could not be found.​

(22) Therefore they asked of Yahweh further, “Is there yet a man to come here?” Yahweh answered, “Behold, he has hidden himself among the baggage.”​

(23) They ran and got him there. When he stood among the people, he was higher than any of the people from his shoulders and upward.​

(24) Samuel said to all the people, “Do you see him whom Yahweh has chosen, that there is no one like him among all the people?” All the people shouted, and said, “Long live the king!”​

Wheras eventually, after Jesus turns the kingdom over to God ("When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all", 1Cor 15:28), God will be king over all living beings, and he will be with all mankind - Revelation 21:3 (WEB):

(3) I heard a loud voice out of heaven saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with people, and he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.​

The Cambridge Bible Notes for Hosea 3:5 says:

David their king] There is a great body of authority for regarding this as an expression for the Messiah. So the Targum took it, so Aben Ezra, and other Jewish writers cited by Pococke. The interpretation rests on the undoubted fact that in Jer_30:9; Eze_34:23-24; Eze_37:24-25 ‘David’ means the ideal king of the future who should prove as it were a second David. In all these passages however there is something in the context to determine the reference to a person, and all these passages belong to a later period in the development of the Messianic revelation. The analogy of Amo_9:11 suggests that what is in Hosea’s mind is, not the person of the king, but the dynasty. In short, ‘David’ = the representative of David. Precisely so Rehoboam is still ‘David’ in 1Ki_12:16, and the high priest ‘Aaron’ in Psa_133:2.​

 

[marks]

No. Human bodies are not immortal (which means 'cannot possibly die', as opposed to mortal which means 'can possibly die') - they can be killed at any time. If Jesus had an immortal human body then he could not have died - he could not have paid the ransom price.

Because he was conceived by God's Holy Spirit Jesus was born with a perfect human body, i.e. he did not inherit a sinful nature from his parents. He continued to live a sinless life - he was "without sin" (Hebrew 4:15). Jesus' human body was like ours, but was not sinful - Romans 8:3 (WEB):

(3) For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh;​

Well said!

There is also the passage in Hebrews,

Hebrews 10:4-10 KJV
4) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6) In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7) Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8) Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Jesus took on flesh for the express purpose of offering it in in death, so it was expressly mortal.

Much love!

 

[keithr]

Are you familiar with the grammatical tenses? The timing of the verbs? "has come" in these verses is the Perfect Tense. This means the verse is speaking of something that happened, with lasting effect.

Well, Jesus came as a man, and lived/lasted as a man for about 33.5 years.

Its in this same way that every one who confesses Jesus Christ as come in flesh . . . as I understand the grammer, it doesn't allow that Jesus stopped being in flesh. Now, there are different kinds of flesh, that's for sure!

Jesus died a physical man, and rose a physical man, as He proved to His disciples.

Don't let the grammar blind you from the obvious meaning of Scripture. 1 Corinthians 15:40 (ESV):

(40) There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.​

(44) It is sown a natural [physical] body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.​

(50) I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.​

Jesus cannot have a physical flesh body, because he could not inherit the kingdom of God if he had. Once again, 1 John 3:2 (ESV):

(2) Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.​

We don't yet know/understand what the nature of Jesus, God and the resurrected body of Christ is like, but we can be sure that it is not human.

What are your thoughts on Jesus eating in front of them, inviting them to touch Him so they could experience that He was in fact physically there?

I already answered that, at the end of post #441.

 

[marks]

I'm not aware of any verses that suggest that Israel shall have a human king reigning over them for eternity.

I don't remember how much interaction we've had in the past, whether you are millennial in your thinking, I am.

I agree, I don't know off hand those that might say for eternity, however, as I believe there will be 1000 years of rule on the earth prior to the judgment of the dead, I see this being when Jesus rules the earth from Jerusalem, the King of Kings.

Jesus will be King over all the kings of the earth. David will be king over Israel, as the other nations will have their kings. And under David, the Apostles will each judge one of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Whether this is to continue past the judgment of the dead, I don't know, but I'm guessing not, as the natural order of the sun and moon will have ended just before final judgment. I'm thinking that God will have completed His plans for the nation of Israel by that time. But then again, the Revelation includes prophecies of "the nations that are saved", so I leave it open knowing I don't know.

After all, God never wanted the Israelites to have a human king in the Old Testament days, but they insisted - from 1 Samuel (WEB):

8:5-7
(5) They said to him, “Behold, you are old, and your sons don’t walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.”(6) But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” Samuel prayed to Yahweh.(7) Yahweh said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people in all that they tell you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me as the king over them.

However, once they did have their king, God gave to them David, of whom you know how Scripture speaks, the great warrior king who brought the land to peace, the sweet psalmist who showed the heart of God, the man after God's Own heart, it is written.

This part, after God's Own heart, I know many, maybe most, think of that as saying David had a heart like God's, but there's another way to look at it,

Numbers 15:39 KJV
And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:

Here, "after your own heart" means according to your own desire.

1 Samuel 13:13-14 KJV
13) And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.
14) But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee.

1 Samuel 12:12-14 KJV
12) And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the LORD your God was your king.
13) Now therefore behold the king whom ye have chosen, and whom ye have desired! and, behold, the LORD hath set a king over you.
14) If ye will fear the LORD, and serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall both ye and also the king that reigneth over you continue following the LORD your God:

Saul, it seems to me, was the king the people wanted.

Acts 13:22 KJV
And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

While David was the kind of king God wanted.

1 Kings 11:4 KJV
For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

And as you know, Scripture goes on to speak of David very highly, to say the least, comparing all the other kings to him, and his heart for the LORD.

God even blesses their poor choice,

1 Samuel 12:14 KJV
If ye will fear the LORD, and serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall both ye and also the king that reigneth over you continue following the LORD your God:

promising that if they and their king fear God and serve Him, they will continue to follow Him.

I see in all this, the people, being led by judges, wanted a king you can see, so God gave them the kind of king they were wanting. And when that went bad, God gave them the kind of king He would choose, if He were not being King over them Himself.

And David fulfilled God's will for his kingship,

Acts 13:22 KJV
22) And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

And God blessed David, and will raise him up again, the greatest human king of Israel, to once again sit in his throne.

Here's another personal promise from God:

Jeremiah 35:18-19 KJV
18) And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:
19) Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever.

In this instance it's not person-specific, and the wording clearly shows that. No ambiguity. I suggest the same is true where the Bible prophesies David to be king over Israel in a future kingdom, that the wording is clear, without ambiguity.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Don't let the grammar blind you from the obvious meaning of Scripture.

The grammer IS the meaning of Scripture. We can't just ignore inconvenient verbs.

Much love!

 

[marks]

No. He had appeared to them in a human form to prove that he was alive (think of it as an avatar if that helps ;) ).

You are saying that He presented Himself as something He actually wasn't for the purpose of convincing them that He was that thing He actually wasn't? That makes no sense to me.

If He wasn't a physical person still, why deceive them? Couldn't He prove He was alive in the way He was actually alive?

His being there with them would prove He was still alive, wouldn't it? Except, it wouldn't prove He was physically there. So He did those things to prove that, right?

It sounds like you are saying Jesus concocted this charade of a physical presence to convince them of something that wasn't true, and I just cannot see God doing that. He is not a man that He should lie, right?

Much love!

 

[keithr]

Yes, I understand what you mean, every human body, including the body of Christ is destined to die.

That's not quite what I meant. All humans can die, and the majority have died and the majority of the remaining will die. However, after the final judgement at the end of the Millennial Age, after the incorrigible have had their second death, from that point on for all eterntiy humans will not die (Rev. 21:4, "Death will be no more"). They will not be immortal - they could still die - but under God's blessings and rule they will not.

And because human bodies shall not be immortal until the last trumpet sounds and the bodies of the saints are raised and changed to immortal & incorruptible, indeed they will not be immortal before that.

No human body will ever be immortal. They can live forever with God providing for them, but they could still possibly die. However, Christians are not resurrected as humans, just as Jesus was not resurrected as a human being. To become immortal we have to be given an immortal spirit being body, having the same immortal nature as God and Jesus have. 2 Peter 1:4 (WEB):

(4) by which he has granted to us his precious and exceedingly great promises; that through these you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust.​

Never meant to imply Jesus' body was immortal, and yes I agree, He was without sin. I'm wondering what you believe regarding the Holy Spirit from whom Christ was procreated. Would you not agree that since the Holy Spirit from birth made Christ spiritually alive, then like the Holy Spirit in Him, His spirit too is immortal even though His body was destined to die?

When he was a man Jesus was 100% human, just like you and me. God made Mary pregnant - Hebrews 10:5 (WEB):

(5) Therefore when he comes into the world, he says, “Sacrifice and offering you didn’t desire, but you prepared a body for me.​

He didn't have a spiritual body as well. God changed Jesus' nature from spiritual to human (physical).

 

[marks]

He didn't have a spiritual body as well. God changed Jesus' nature from spiritual to human (physical).

My understanding on this is that Jesus, being Spirit, then inhabited an human body being born from Mary. Jesus is Spirit, indwelling a body, "As He is, so are we in this world." Being reborn from God, Spirit gives birth to spirit, we are spirit, living in a body. Before we were born from God, all we were was the body with it's soul, spiritually dead. Now we are living spirit, alive in Christ, inhabiting our bodies.

So when Jesus gave His body in death, His spirit did not cease, as His life is not derived from His body.

Much love!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Jesus cannot have a physical flesh body, because he could not inherit the kingdom of God if he had.

Respectfully Disagree, Because:

on earth:

Luk_24:39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself: handle Me,​

and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have."​

In Heaven:

Eph_5:30 "For we are members of His Body, of His Flesh, And of His Bones."​

The Immortal "flesh and bones" inherit, not the "sinful flesh and blood," Correct?

Amen.

 

[marks]

Respectfully Disagree, Because:

on earth:

Luk_24:39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself: handle Me,​

and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have."​

In Heaven:

Eph_5:30 "For we are members of His Body, of His Flesh, And of His Bones."​

The Immortal "flesh and bones" inherit, not the "sinful flesh and blood," Correct?

Amen.

Amen!

Jesus is Eternal Spirit living in a New Humanity, our High Priest, One Who stands in the gap. One in Whom can be all of us, just as we were once all of us in Adam.

Only the Infinite Omnipotent God could give a death that could, through His Infinite Spirit, reach to all of us, as we receive, each of us, His Spirit.

And yet He is a new kind of Man, in which we can be new men, new creations, and in the resurrection the culmination of God's creation of man, as we are joined to Him one spirit, one flesh, bone of His bone, as you've mentioned.

Much love!

 

[keithr]

My understanding on this is that Jesus, being Spirit, then inhabited an human body being born from Mary. Jesus is Spirit, indwelling a body,

Spirit beings can possess a human body, and many spirit beings can possess a single human, but Jesus was not possessing somebody else. He became human. From foetus to manhood, he was the only person in possession of his body, just like us. He was not at that point a spirit being with a spirit body, merely operating a seperate human body; his only existence was as a man.

The Scriptures are vague on the biology or science of human life, but my conjecture is that we do have a spiritual part in us, and that is how God can resurrect humans to life again, because when the body dies the spirit part continues to exist in a dormant, unconscious state, and God is able to supply a new body (either physical, i.e. human, or a spiritual body) to clothe/home that spirit part, so that it can consciously live again. So I think that Adam was created as an unconscious spirit in a non-functioning body, which God then animated, causing it to breathe and function, and so Adam became a living soul/person.

Just an aside for interest, if you're familiar with Ron Wyatt's discoveries then you'll know that he claimed to have found the Ark of the Covenant with Jesus' blood on the mercy seat, and that he took a sample of that blood and had it analysed. Instead of the normal 46 chromosones, 23 from the father and 23 from the mother, Jesus' blood only had 24 - 23 chromosones from the mother and an X chromosone to make it male rather than female. Therefore that confirmed that Jesus did not have a human father, and did not inherit the corrupt sinful nature from man.

"As He is, so are we in this world."

That verse, I presume from 1 John 4:17, is saying that we have the same loving character as Jesus:

(17) In this love has been made perfect among us, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as he is, even so are we in this world.​

It doesn't mean that Jesus was a spirit being inhabiting a human body and that we are likewise!

Being reborn from God, Spirit gives birth to spirit, we are spirit, living in a body.

I don't think so. We are not two personalities living in the one body. We have been begotten again, and will become spirit beings when we are resurrected and God gives us a spirit being body - that is our birth as a spirit being, a new creation.

1 Peter 1:23 (ASV):

(23) having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth.​

1 John 3:9 (ASV):

(9) Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.​

So when Jesus gave His body in death, His spirit did not cease, as His life is not derived from His body.

Without a body with which to interact with our surroundings, whether that is physical or spiritual (heavenly) surroundings, we have no thoughts or experiences - we are dead/sleeping. God can destroy the body, and he can either preserve or destroy and the soul (what I think of as our spiritual part). Those who will die the second death will have their souls (spiritual part) destroyed and will no longer be able to have conscious life. That's how Iunderstand it; it's the only way that it makes sense to me.

1 Corinthians 13:12 (WEB):

(12) For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known.​

 

[keithr]

Eph_5:30 "For we are members of His Body, of His Flesh, And of His Bones."​

The Immortal "flesh and bones" inherit, not the "sinful flesh and blood," Correct?

No, I don't believe that is correct! First of all "of his flesh, and of his bones" is probably a corruption of the Scriptures. The Cambridge Bible Notes says:

of his flesh, and of his bones] Three important MSS. (ABא) supported by other but not considerable authority, omit these words. It has been suggested that they were inserted by transcribers from Gen_2:23, as the next verse is certainly quoted from Gen_2:24. But the phrase here is not verbally close enough to that in Gen. to make this likely. A transcriber would probably have given word for word, while the Apostle would as probably quote with a difference, such as we find here. And the difference is significant. “We” are not said here to be “bone of His bone &c.,” which might have seemed to imply that our physical frame is derived from that of the Incarnate Lord, but, more generally, “limbs of His body, out of His flesh and out of His bones.” Our true, spiritual, life and being is the derivative of His as He is our Second Adam, in a sense so strong and real as to be figured by the physical derivation of Eve from Adam. “As for any mixture of the substance of His flesh with ours,” says Hooker (Eccl. Pol. v. 56, end), “the participation which we have of Christ includeth no such gross surmise”.​

​

In brief, this statement, in the light of other Scripture, amounts to the assertion that “we,” the believing Church, as such, are, as in the Case of Eve and Adam, at once the product of our Incarnate Lord’s existence as Second Adam, and His Bride. This profound and precious truth is not dwelt upon, however. Strictly speaking, it is only incidental here.​

And so we find that some modern translations omit the words, e.g. ASV, ESV, TLV, GNB:

(30) because we are members of his body.​

Flesh and bones cannot inherit the kingdom of God, because heaven is not part of the physical universe. The whole physical universe is a creation of God, but God and the angels live outside of that. They exist in more dimensions than are accessible in the physical universe. A physical, human body could not access or interact in such a place. Jesus is no longer human, and neither will we be when we are changed to be like him.

Philippians 3:20-21 (ESV):

(20) But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,​

(21) who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.​

 

[David in NJ]

Spirit beings can possess a human body, and many spirit beings can possess a single human, but Jesus was not possessing somebody else. He became human. From foetus to manhood, he was the only person in possession of his body, just like us. He was not at that point a spirit being with a spirit body, merely operating a seperate human body; his only existence was as a man.

The Scriptures are vague on the biology or science of human life, but my conjecture is that we do have a spiritual part in us, and that is how God can resurrect humans to life again, because when the body dies the spirit part continues to exist in a dormant, unconscious state, and God is able to supply a new body (either physical, i.e. human, or a spiritual body) to clothe/home that spirit part, so that it can consciously live again. So I think that Adam was created as an unconscious spirit in a non-functioning body, which God then animated, causing it to breathe and function, and so Adam became a living soul/person.

Just an aside for interest, if you're familiar with Ron Wyatt's discoveries then you'll know that he claimed to have found the Ark of the Covenant with Jesus' blood on the mercy seat, and that he took a sample of that blood and had it analysed. Instead of the normal 46 chromosones, 23 from the father and 23 from the mother, Jesus' blood only had 24 - 23 chromosones from the mother and an X chromosone to make it male rather than female. Therefore that confirmed that Jesus did not have a human father, and did not inherit the corrupt sinful nature from man.


That verse, I presume from 1 John 4:17, is saying that we have the same loving character as Jesus:

(17) In this love has been made perfect among us, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as he is, even so are we in this world.​

It doesn't mean that Jesus was a spirit being inhabiting a human body and that we are likewise!


I don't think so. We are not two personalities living in the one body. We have been begotten again, and will become spirit beings when we are resurrected and God gives us a spirit being body - that is our birth as a spirit being, a new creation.

1 Peter 1:23 (ASV):

(23) having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth.​

1 John 3:9 (ASV):

(9) Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.​

Without a body with which to interact with our surroundings, whether that is physical or spiritual (heavenly) surroundings, we have no thoughts or experiences - we are dead/sleeping. God can destroy the body, and he can either preserve or destroy and the soul (what I think of as our spiritual part). Those who will die the second death will have their souls (spiritual part) destroyed and will no longer be able to have conscious life. That's how Iunderstand it; it's the only way that it makes sense to me.

1 Corinthians 13:12 (WEB):

(12) For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known.​

keithr said: He was not at that point a spirit being with a spirit body, merely operating a seperate human body; his only existence was as a man. = This is false keithr.


This is TRUE = Hebrews 10:5-7
Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”

 

[keithr]

keithr said: He was not at that point a spirit being with a spirit body, merely operating a seperate human body; his only existence was as a man. = This is false keithr.

Why do you think that "you prepared a body for me" means that Jesus existed as more than one being, having more than one body at a time (as if that is possible)? If Jesus was not a perfect, sinless man, then he would not have been a suitable sacrifice for Adam, who before his disobedience was a perfect man. God's righteousness demands "you must take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot" (Exodus 21:23-24). The sacrifice needed to redeem Adam was a perfect human man - like for like.

Jesus existed before he became a human. God changed Jesus' nature from spirit being to human being, so that while he was a human he only existed as a human. He died, still a perfect and sinless man, as a sacrifice to God to redeem Adam's life. It wasn't just one of his multiple bodies that died while the other continued living! God raised him to life again, giving him an immortal divine spirit being body, so he no longer exists as a man, and he cannot die again.

1 Samuel 15:22 (WEB):

(22) Samuel said, “Has Yahweh as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying Yahweh’s voice? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.​

Hebrews 10:5 (WEB):

(5) Therefore when he comes into the world, he says, “Sacrifice and offering you didn’t desire, but you prepared a body for me.​

Philippians 2:8 (WEB):

(8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross.​

Hebrews 10:12 (WEB):

(12) but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;​

Revelation 1:18 (WEB):

(18) and the Living one. I was dead, and behold, I am alive forever and ever. Amen. I have the keys of Death and of Hades.​

 

[marks]

No, I don't believe that is correct! First of all "of his flesh, and of his bones" is probably a corruption of the Scriptures. The Cambridge Bible Notes says:

This is where the manuscript discussion becomes important. The one says this, the other says that, which is it? I believe it's the one that's been accepted throughout history since it was written, the one that has remained available since it was written, that being the Majority Manuscript.

So if we are basing any part of this discussion on whether or not those words belong in the text, I always think of the place in Psalm 119 that reads, "Forever Your word is preserved in Heaven. Your faithfulness is unto all generations." Something like that. For me that answers the question.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Why do you think that "you prepared a body for me" means that Jesus existed as more than one being, having more than one body at a time (as if that is possible)? If Jesus was not a perfect, sinless man, then he would not have been a suitable sacrifice for Adam, who before his disobedience was a perfect man. God's righteousness demands "you must take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot" (Exodus 21:23-24). The sacrifice needed to redeem Adam was a perfect human man - like for like.

Jesus existed before he became a human. God changed Jesus' nature from spirit being to human being, so that while he was a human he only existed as a human. He died, still a perfect and sinless man, as a sacrifice to God to redeem Adam's life. It wasn't just one of his multiple bodies that died while the other continued living! God raised him to life again, giving him an immortal divine spirit being body, so he no longer exists as a man, and he cannot die again.

1 Samuel 15:22 (WEB):

(22) Samuel said, “Has Yahweh as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying Yahweh’s voice? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.​

Hebrews 10:5 (WEB):

(5) Therefore when he comes into the world, he says, “Sacrifice and offering you didn’t desire, but you prepared a body for me.​

Philippians 2:8 (WEB):

(8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross.​

Hebrews 10:12 (WEB):

(12) but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;​

Revelation 1:18 (WEB):

(18) and the Living one. I was dead, and behold, I am alive forever and ever. Amen. I have the keys of Death and of Hades.​

You combined two different subject matters - SEE your qoutes below #1 and #2

#1 - Why do you think that "you prepared a body for me" means that Jesus existed as more than one being, having more than one body at a time (as if that is possible)?

#2 - If Jesus was not a perfect, sinless man, then he would not have been a suitable sacrifice for Adam, who before his disobedience was a perfect man.


#1 - The WORD that was GOD was NEVER created = SEE = "a body YOU have prepared for ME" = Echad Elohim

#2 - the 'body' that was "prepared" for the WORD is 100% SINLESS, Before- During - After = SEE Revelation chapter 1

 

[rwb]

Spirit beings can possess a human body, and many spirit beings can possess a single human, but Jesus was not possessing somebody else. He became human. From foetus to manhood, he was the only person in possession of his body, just like us. He was not at that point a spirit being with a spirit body, merely operating a seperate human body; his only existence was as a man.

While I agree spirits can possess a human body, and Jesus was not possessing the body He was in. Yes, Jesus was fully human. But what you do not acknowledge is that Jesus was procreated/conceived by God, the Holy Spirit. Being fully human Jesus was flesh & bones, and He had a spirit that gave His body natural or physical life. Being procreated by the Holy Spirit is what made Jesus unique from every other human being ever to have lived or who will ever live. God, the Holy Spirit did not depart from Jesus when He was born. The Holy Spirit was in Him from birth, and in death it was through the power of the Holy Spirit that Christ's spirit ascended up to the Father in heaven, while His dead corpse was placed in the tomb.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Having both natural human life made Christ fully man, and the Holy Spirit in Him is what gave Him supernatural powers and is why He is the God/Man. Fully human being, but without sin, and fully God, the Creator of all.

Therefore what you said is not true, "his only existence was as a man." There has never been, and never shall be the existence of a man who has power over life and death. Christ, Jesus the Man is indeed our long awaited Messiah/Saviour. Without this God/Man there would be no salvation for any man.

Luke 1:26-33 (KJV) And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Matthew 1:18 (KJV) Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

The Scriptures are vague on the biology or science of human life, but my conjecture is that we do have a spiritual part in us, and that is how God can resurrect humans to life again, because when the body dies the spirit part continues to exist in a dormant, unconscious state, and God is able to supply a new body (either physical, i.e. human, or a spiritual body) to clothe/home that spirit part, so that it can consciously live again. So I think that Adam was created as an unconscious spirit in a non-functioning body, which God then animated, causing it to breathe and function, and so Adam became a living soul/person.

I've shown you the Scriptures that are NOT vague in any way of how we know that Jesus is both fully Man and fully God. Your conjecture regarding the "biology or science" of human life errs on the conception of Jesus. We show also that your conjecture regarding the creation of man also errs. Man was created from the dust of the earth of flesh & bones, and God breathed into him the breath of life, which is man's spirit, and together the body & spirit became a "living soul." The spirit gives our human body natural life, and a living soul is what we become.

Where it becomes confusing is defining the difference between soul and spirit. Because wherever there is life in any creature upon the earth, that creature, whether animal or human is a living soul. To be a natural/physical living soul, there must be a living spirit within, because when the spirit departs the body at death, the physical body becomes a corpse. After the death of a human being who died IN CHRIST, the spirit departs the body and returns to God in heaven alive. In heaven the living spirit is also called a living soul, because there is still life found there.

Though the spirits in every human returns to God who gave it, Scripture says only the spirit indwelt with the Holy Spirit from Christ shall be alive forever.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Paul writes of those who die in Christ in 1Cor 15, and John in Rev also writes of spirit life or living souls in heaven after the physical body is a corpse.

Adam was not created "an unconscious spirit" as you think. He was created with a natural/physical body that possessed flesh & bones, and God breathed life (spirit) into him and he became a complete physical human being, a living soul. Human beings are not spirits, we have a spirit that gives our bodies life. Spirit beings are not physical, though they can and have possessed humans or taken on human form. But Scripture says humans are flesh & bones, and spirits cannot be seen, they can be evil spirits under the power of Satan, or they can be spirits or ministering spirits of God, which are unseen forces sent by God to those who would be heirs of salvation.

Hebrews 1:14 (KJV) Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

 

[rwb]

Flesh and bones cannot inherit the kingdom of God, because heaven is not part of the physical universe. The whole physical universe is a creation of God, but God and the angels live outside of that. They exist in more dimensions than are accessible in the physical universe. A physical, human body could not access or interact in such a place. Jesus is no longer human, and neither will we be when we are changed to be like him.

Philippians 3:20-21 (ESV):
(20) But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,(21) who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Flesh & bones cannot inherit the Kingdom of God in heaven, neither can corruption and I would add nor do mortal beings. The Kingdom of God is heaven above the heavens we see with natural sight. Heaven is the dwelling habitation of spirit beings, angels of God, and the spirits of just men made perfect. The spirits in men are justified, or declared righteous in Christ, by grace through faith. Faithful saints from the moment we are born again of the Holy Spirit are part of the spiritual body of Christ. As Paul has written "our citizenship is in heaven." Not physically, but spiritually we are in life with Christ if we are IN Christ. Through His Spirit in us we have spiritual access to the dwelling place of God. When we are IN Christ we are spiritually perfect, having eternal spirits that shall never die. It is for this reason that Christ tells us that whoever lives and believes in Him shall never die. Though our physical bodies shall die, our eternal spirit through the power of the Holy Spirit in us will leave our bodies at death to return to God a living (spirit) soul. Just as we physical belonged to the body of Christ in life, so too we shall belong to the body of Christ in heaven when our body becomes a corpse.

Hebrews 12:23 (KJV) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Ephesians 1:3 (KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:20 (KJV) Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Ephesians 2:6 (KJV) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 

[rwb]

keithr said: He was not at that point a spirit being with a spirit body, merely operating a seperate human body; his only existence was as a man. = This is false keithr.


This is TRUE = Hebrews 10:5-7
Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”

Yes, God prepared the body of flesh & bones with a spirit that gave His body life for Christ to inhabit while clothed in human flesh on this earth. His body was prepared through the Holy Spirit that He was procreated through.

 

[rwb]

Jesus existed before he became a human. God changed Jesus' nature from spirit being to human being, so that while he was a human he only existed as a human. He died, still a perfect and sinless man, as a sacrifice to God to redeem Adam's life. It wasn't just one of his multiple bodies that died while the other continued living! God raised him to life again, giving him an immortal divine spirit being body, so he no longer exists as a man, and he cannot die again.

No, God did not change Jesus' nature when He became human. Christ NEVER ceased being indwelt with the Holy Spirit which is what made Him fully God as well as being fully human without sin.