The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I answered his misinterpretations of those passages already.
Now, does Jesus tell you that God destroys the body and soul in hell or not?
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
He died and was quite alive in the fire, and TORMENTED!
No Scripture?
Jude 1
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;
23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
You did not even get close.
You have no idea!
I know your kind.
You live by desires and want to impose your desires on Christ and the Bible.
Your kind could care less what the Bible says....Your word is the only thing that is important to you.
So how did you get involved with this guy that brainwashed you?
What sin is he holding over you?
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Only false because you believe errors over Jesus. Explain to all of us--Why would Jesus teach-John 17:3--the one who sent him( Father) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD? And did not teach--the Father, son and holy spirit there? Why did Paul teach-1Cor 8:6-There is one God to all the Father--Why didnt he say-Father, son and holy spirit?
Still don't know how to quote Scripture? It's easy! You're not gonna like these though.
NWT Isaiah 44 This is what Jehovah says,The King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Jehovah of armies: ‘I am the first and I am the last.
NWT Rev 1
17 I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever,
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Keiw
Well-Known Member
Isaiah is about Jehovah-Rev is about Jesus--2 separate beings.
You have no answer to bible truth that i asked you do you?
Same being, "the First and the Last" Who was "dead" and came to life.
You don't quote "bible". You spew JW opinions! lol
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but that's nonsense. Very few people believe in universalism, and very few of those because they want to do whatever they like without consequences.
Not all the above scripture you quoted clearly declared eternal torture.
Eternal fire, yes.
Eternal punishment, yes. Unquenchable fire, yes.
Weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, yes. But what are those expressions actually saying? Eternal torture? No.
God Himself is eternal fire.
Death is the punishment for sin, and if there's no resurrection, it's eternal.
Unquenchable fire, yes, because none can put it out. Doesn't mean it will go out when it runs out of fuel.... ...Bodies to burn.
Weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, yes, but for how long? You assume the bodies and souls of sinners are immortal and don't eventually die after appropriate terms of suffering.
Even Satan himself is described as being destroyed in the fire... And humans suffer more than him?
The ONLY more difficult passage is the one Jack repeats because he thinks that's a winner, is the one from revelation. But even that can be explained in cultural and grammatical terms as lasting for a period of time and no longer. But then I think you know that already.
Now. Do you want to talk about the character of a God of love that wants to torture non stop for ever and forever without mercy and without any hope of justice being met for those that have offended Him for few years?
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Rev 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
As I said previously, I have no argument that there is an eternal fire. Doesn't mean that whoever is thrown in to that fire is also eternal.
As the the beast and the false prophet. The false prophet in Revelation 13, the second beast, is a nation, guide and led by a demonic angel. Daniel tells us that nations have angels over them. So do churches have angels. We undertake the influence of angels in the world, both good and evil.
Throughout prophetic scripture beasts are nations and/or empires. They are a spiritual or political power, or combination of both as per the the first and second beasts of Revelation 13 who legislate religious laws related to worship contrary to God's laws.
If a nation or empire is cast into the lake of fire, that simply means it's gone, destroyed, never again to bother God's people. Either way, those 2 scripture says nothing about people being burnt forever.
The entire underlying argument you are advocating is that humans are immortal and cannot die. In other words, God deliberately gives them eternal life for the sole purpose of inflicting pain. That is not the God of the Bible.
Nice smokescreen. Now let's get down to FACTS!
Matthew 25
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Exact same Greek word! And exact same Greek word in John 3:16. Don't you believe in EVERLASTING life?
John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
The scriptures were very clear for those that can read and with all of them all together absolutely true.
And again I am correct that people do not want to be punished for sinning and being evil. The ones that squawk the loudest......maybe saying, There is no Hell! There is no Hell! But the yellow sign on their back is flashing.....I want to sin and not be punished! I want to sin and not be punished!
The character of God? Thin ice! The character of man? I think if you check the Bible, you will see that God is not real big on sin and evil. And he can be rather rough....Like the time He told Moses to go over there and kill all that breaths and do not forget the babies. We are talking eternity and those with evil natures and those with good natures. Heaven is not going to be full of evil and the evil will be punished for eternity. Sizzle!! Sizzle!! LOL The fiery furnace awaits them!
A religion base on denial of the scriptures is sure to turn out badly. So much time and effort to deny the scriptures is sooo evil. Why waste your time being a Christian? Eat, drink, and sin all you want...sizzle later. In my ministry The Johnny Appleseed of Truth I have seen a lot of it. For those that love God and love the goodness He represents, Truth can be empowering.....for those that love evil, it can be terrifying! Sizzle! Sizzle! To fall into the hands of the living God is a terrifying thing. Fry baby Fry!
I think it is funny, people that do drugs think that people do not notice....do not know they are high. Their drugs change the reasoning in their minds. Take drugs and do evil and read the Bible...LOL...that has to seem like a horror story. So they deny it. Same goes for these people that do not want to believe in a fiery Hell of eternal punishment.....people notice what they are and why they do not want to believe that they will be punished for eternity.
It is because they do not think that evil is that bad. Why would God be so mean! Whine! Whine! Evil is not that bad! And people do notice their character and the evil that lurks inside of them. It stands out like a sore thumb. Some don't believe in Hell fire and some do not think that Yeshua is God....just a guy giving good suggestions. People do notice your kind, you cannot hide it.
And you can be sure that God notices and the sizzle awaits you.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
So? What you are missing is that nowhere in those texts does it mention everlasting punishing. Eternal death without a resurrection... That is the second death... Is an eternal punishment.
If God deems it necessary to punish sinners with pain and suffering for ever, then they are alive right? They have eternal life. Theoretically. Just at a different address to yourself... Hopefully. But still aware, conscious, with the ability to think, communicate, feel pain and suffer, theoretically. That is the very definition of life, and it is no different to the life granted by grace to the redeemed, except in the experience being received. But life nevertheless. So. Before you can convince me that such is the case for sinners, prove to me from scripture that God gives sinners eternal life, or that He ever intended for sinners to live forever... Anywhere. I suggest you start with Genesis 3:22-24.
While we are discussing eternal suffering and pain, perhaps you would like to explain to us all how justice is met when the punishing never stops? To me, of the punishment never stops, them justice is never fulfilled. Ever. Yet God is a God of justice... And mercy. And love. Where are any of those godly attributes... Even divine attributes... In eternal torment? What does God do with those attributes when He theoretically consigns sinners to eternal torment? Who is this heartless loveless merciless tyrannical god you worship and admire? It isn't the same God who died in your place. We are told in scripture that the wages of sin is death. Not eternal torment.
We are told in scripture that Jesus was the propitiation for our sin... That is, He took the punishment that we deserve.
What was the punishment that Jesus suffered in our place?
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Not once did you actually address anything I said. I don't want sermons and I don't need your threats of fire and brimstone to deter me from sin...I have Calvary for that. His love is sufficient to keep me from sin.
"If ye love Me, keep My commandments".
You are no more honest than Grail. Ignore the fact that the scriptures you quote don't actually say what you want them to say. You are just firing blanks.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I find it interesting that you resort to strawmen to bolster your argument. Nowhere did I suggest there is no hell... Just not the hell you are so desperate to promote.
As to your contention that the sum total of those scriptures mean something different than their individual parts present, is totally illogical. If they were all saying the same thing, fine. But they aren't. Would you like a list of all the scriptures that deal with annihilation of the wicked? What will you do with that, consider they outnumber your contribution 4 to 1?
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