Luke 21:36 is Not a Rapture Passage

[marks]

i have noticed on here that when certain doctrines are challenged it suddenly becomes "personal".

You make it so. Rather than comment on what I've posted, you've chosen to comment on me.

Perhaps, should you wish to continue, I've got a number of posts written to you to which you've not responded to the content. Perhaps you might respond. (on the other thread . . .)

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

You make it so. Rather than comment on what I've posted, you've chosen to comment on me.

Perhaps, should you wish to continue, I've got a number of posts written to you to which you've not responded to the content. Perhaps you might respond.

Much love!

If we are personally attached to a misguided belief, and then that belief is challenged/exposed then we feel as if we are being personally judged.

If you can separate your personal feelings from having the dominion over Truth then the Truth will not hurt you as a "son of God."

EXAMPLE: JESUS hurt many peoples feelings = all the time when HE walked this earth and spoke Truth.
However, those who persevered thru the 'hurt feelings' continued on to Understanding that soothed over their emotions unto Salvation.

Do you think Peter's emotions were hurt when the LORD corrected him and said: "get behind me Satan for you care not about the things of God".

Do you understand WHY Paul rebuked Peter?
Can you see how it applies to "Jesus was sent to the Jews and not to the church"?

Can you rejoice in this = "Rebuke a wise man and he will be become wiser." - Proverbs 9:9
You are a wise Brother in Christ whom i respect and love = let your wisdom increase.

 

[PinSeeker]

7 is God's Signature

7 represents Salvation

7th Day God Rested

MESSIAH is HE who ushered in the 70th Week and it is HE who will Complete it

"Come to ME(7) all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you REST" = Matt 11:28

Now when the 7 thunders uttered their voices, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Seal up the things which the 7 thunders uttered, and do not write them.”
The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised up his hand to heaven and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer, but in the days of the sounding of the 7th angel, when he is about to sound,
the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

Noah and family in the ARK for 7 Days before the rain = ARK is symbolic of JESUS = 7 = REST from Wrath

7 is NOT pre-trib rapture but it is SALVATION

IMPORTANT NOTE: 7(Salvation) x 10(Tribulation) = 70 = Take your pick = REST or LAW/Judgment

Hm. Are you agreeing with me, David?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

TODAY, Everyone who is in JESUS is already in the ARK for 7 Days of Salvation

Well, yes, we are being carried through the storm ~ tribulation. Right?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[David in NJ]

Hm. Are you agreeing with me, David?

Grace and peace to you.

Fully AGREE with you my Brother on this which you said:

Well, yes, we are being carried through the storm ~ tribulation. Right?

Grace and peace to you.

Also = By being in JESUS/ARK we escape God's Wrath = 1 Thess 1:10

"and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath."

Noah waited in the ARK 7 Days and was delivered from Wrath/Flood

Noah endured 100 Years of the Greatest Tribulation the world had ever seen PRIOR to enetering the ARK.

 

[David in NJ]

Hm. Are you agreeing with me, David?

Grace and peace to you.

Fully AGREE with you my Brother on this which you said: "The point here was that some were propping this up as an example of the rapture, and it's really quite the opposite.

 

[marks]

If we are personally attached to a misguided belief, and then that belief is challenged/exposed then we feel as if we are being personally judged.

If you can separate your personal feelings from having the dominion over Truth then the Truth will not be hurt you as a "son of God."

EXAMPLE: JESUS hurt many peoples feelings = all the time when HE walked this earth and spoke Truth.
However, those who persevered thru the 'hurt feelings' continued on to Understanding that soothed over their emotions unto Salvation.

Do you think Peter's emotions were hurt when the LORD corrected him and said: "get behind me Satan for you care not about the things of God".

Do you understand WHY Paul rebuked Peter?
Can you see how it applies to "Jesus was sent to the Jews and not to the church"?

Can you rejoice in this = "Rebuke a wise man and he will be wiser still."
You are a wise Brother in Christ whom i respect and love = let your wisdom increase.

I'm asking you to stop talking about me, and respond to my topic, and my content. You are off topic. This isn't about feelings.

Man, if I only had a dollar everytime I heard that!

If you want to reply, please address my assertions with your refutations or comments.

And please do me the respect of not fobbing this off as some personal feelings thing. I don't think you are understanding me, who I am.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

First thing God said to Noah in Genesis 7 was to enter the ark. Do you think Noah waited 7 days to enter?

We can't really know the precise timing, because we are not told. Your "selfsame day" quote is from Genesis 7:13, and that refers to "(the) day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened," which was seven days after God had told Noah the waters would come.

No, he did as God commanded. Noah, His family and all the animals entered the in the selfsame day.

No, see above. "On the very same day..." ~ that "the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened..." ~ on that day, seven days after God had told Noah He would flood the earth, "...Noah and his sons, Shem and Ham and Japheth, and Noah’s wife and the three wives of his sons with them entered the ark..." and "the LORD shut him in."

All we can reasonably say is that God gave Noah a bit of time ~ a week ~ for all the animals to be gathered unto Noah, brought to him by God. "On the selfsame day" in verse 13 is referring to the seventh day, on which the rains came, Sure, they all got on the Ark that very day, the seventh day. But the gathering of the animals ~ "every beast, according to its kind, and all the livestock according to their kinds, and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, according to its kind, and every bird, according to its kind, every winged creature" ~ took a little time, I'm sure.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

If we are personally attached to a misguided belief, and then that belief is challenged/exposed then we feel as if we are being personally judged.

To be clear, what I'm talking about is called the Ad Hominem Fallacy, which is Latin for "to the man". Now, most people associate that with bad behavior on the speaker's part, whether it be direct insults, insinuations, things like that. But that's not really the heart of the fallacy.

"To the man" means just that, instead of discussing the topic, you turn the discussion "to the man". Now you are discussing the other speaker.

Let me give you an unrelated example. Let's say we are debating over whether or not part failure was caused by too much metal stress. And I give some facts and figures, and you respond, "But you are not a metalurgist." Rather than comment on the facts and figures you've commented on me. To the man. The thing is, though, whether or not I'm a metalurgist has no bearing on whether or not my facts and figures are correct.

If you want to show the facts and figures are wrong, you are going to have to address them in particular. And it's no good to just say, "but parts don't break that way!", because that likewise does not address the information.

Only by addressing the facts and figures will we come to any conclusions. Ad Hominem is a fallacy because it does not address the topic.

Much love!

 

[The Light]

No, see above. "On the very same day..." ~ that "the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened..." ~ on that day, seven days after God had told Noah He would flood the earth, "...Noah and his sons, Shem and Ham and Japheth, and Noah’s wife and the three wives of his sons with them entered the ark..." and "the LORD shut him in."

Grace and peace to you.

You are not reading close enough. The same day that the flood occurred Noah was 600 years old and it was the second month and 17th day of the month. Then the paragraph concludes with and the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
Genesis 7
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

We have a new paragraph that tells you that Noah, his family and ALL OF THE ANIMALS entered the are in the selfsame day. That tells you that the complete loading took one day and it was not the day of the flood. It was the day he was told to enter.
Genesis 7
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

I'm asking you to stop talking about me, and respond to my topic, and my content. You are off topic. This isn't about feelings.

Man, if I only had a dollar everytime I heard that!

If you want to reply, please address my assertions with your refutations or comments.

And please do me the respect of not fobbing this off as some personal feelings thing. I don't think you are understanding me, who I am.

Much love!

lol. You treat others that way and then complain and sob when you get treated the same way?

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

To be clear, what I'm talking about is called the Ad Hominem Fallacy, which is Latin for "to the man". Now, most people associate that with bad behavior on the speaker's part, whether it be direct insults, insinuations, things like that. But that's not really the heart of the fallacy.

"To the man" means just that, instead of discussing the topic, you turn the discussion "to the man". Now you are discussing the other speaker.

Let me give you an unrelated example. Let's say we are debating over whether or not part failure was caused by too much metal stress. And I give some facts and figures, and you respond, "But you are not a metalurgist." Rather than comment on the facts and figures you've commented on me. To the man. The thing is, though, whether or not I'm a metalurgist has no bearing on whether or not my facts and figures are correct.

If you want to show the facts and figures are wrong, you are going to have to address them in particular. And it's no good to just say, "but parts don't break that way!", because that likewise does not address the information.

Only by addressing the facts and figures will we come to any conclusions. Ad Hominem is a fallacy because it does not address the topic.

Much love!

the pot calling the kettle black if I've ever seen it.

 

[PinSeeker]

You are not reading close enough.

I say the same thing of you. If you disagree that "the same day" refers to the day it started raining ~ which was seven days after God told Noah that's exactly what would happen ~ then yes, you are not reading close enough.

What you (and @marks) seem to be saying is that "the same day" in Genesis 7:13 is referring to the day God told Noah that he would bring rain upon the earth in seven days, and if so, that is obviously in error. God used the time between the day He gave Noah His "orders" (and told him what would happen in seven days) and the day the rains came (seven days later) to bring the animals to Noah. And then, yes, on that seventh day, they all got on the Ark, and God shut the door behind them.

On top of that... and I'm not sure if you are doing this or not... using this detail as some kind of "obvious sign of the Rapture" at the end of the current age is quite ridiculous.

In a sense, what God did was bring them all to Jesus, which foreshadows what is happening now ~ God is drawing His elect, both Jew and Gentile, unto Him, and carrying us through the storm, as it were. And one day soon, God's Israel will be complete, and Jesus will return.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

lol. You treat others that way and then complain and sob when you get treated the same way?

Actually, from what I've seen Marks is one of the more respectful posters, unlike most of us.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I began to see that what became the question was "these are the beginning of sorrows". I wasn't remembering that you had thought this a "throw away", until I came back to write this.

Matthew 24:7-8 KJV
7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8) All these are the beginning of sorrows.

I'm curious, how does it affect your interpretation if we are to regard these as meaningful as the others around them?

I used throw away to make a stronger point, Jesus was only using those two verse to prove or demonstrate unto the Disciples 100 percent, that this was not him returning, he needed to make it 100 percent obvious that the 67-70 AD Wars and Rumors of wars was not his 2nd Coming. So, he gives the whole Sorrows angle, or a child being born and thus the birth pangs beginning and getting worse and worse until the birth happens.

So, by throwing in verses 7 and 8 he is proving that 70 AD is not his 2nd coming, how so? They would have to see MANY MANY earthquakes getting worse and worse, they would have to see many famines starting out smaller in scale and getting worse and worse, same with the plagues, they could not just see one plague, they would have to see many that got worse and worse like birth pangs, so, while nothing in the bible is a throw away line, as per his POINTS unto the Disciples, he only put verses 7-8 in there to demonstrate how they would never see the end times, thus they knew 100 percent 70 AD was not Jesus' returning. Why is this so important? Because many people wrongfully see those 2 verses as 70th week events, it SO CONFUSES the masses, even great preachers, that I feel the need to point out Jesus in verses 7-8 is merely demonstrating unto the Disciples points to get them to understand what he needs them to do to build the church and keep the church safe.

1.) They needed to stay safe and to keep their converts away from Jerusalem in the 67-70 AD events.

2.) They needed to know they would all be killed (save John) and that this faithful to death attitude was very, very important for the new converts to see. Also, they could not become another "Judas".

3.) The Gospel being preached unto the whole world let them know 70 AD was not Jesus' returning.

This is why I say verses 7-8 is not the overall point Jesus is making, his main thrust here is to teach them how to survive the 67-70 AD events, if they had come rushing back to try and help save Jerusalem, Israel and the Temple from Rome (Fourth Beast) the Church would have been destroyed, in its infancy. God just shows me these things because I ponder deeper than most do I guess.

The beginning of Sorrows, or Birth Pangs was given in order to let them know the end is way on down the line, or by and by.

 

[marks]

I used throw away to make a stronger point,

OK, I suspected that may be the case. I appreciate your post, I think I understand your view on this part now. I've never thought of it that way before, and I can see the sense this makes. I'm not sure yet whether I agree or not, but certainly something to consider!

Very interesting! I'll probably come back to this, as it continues to percolate. I'm going to need to reread the passage a number of times . . .

Much love!

 

[The Light]

I say the same thing of you. If you disagree that "the same day" refers to the day it started raining ~ which was seven days after God told Noah that's exactly what would happen ~ then yes, you are not reading close enough.

What you (and @marks) seem to be saying is that "the same day" in Genesis 7:13 is referring to the day God told Noah that he would bring rain upon the earth in seven days, and if so, that is obviously in error.

The term the "same day" is used in Genesis 7:11 to tell us that the same day Noah turned 600 the flood was upon the earth. The term "selfsame day" used in Genesis 7:13 is telling us that on the selfsame days Noah, his family and all of the animals entered the ark and that day was the 1st day not the 7th day as we can see here.

Genesis 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

God used the time between the day He gave Noah His "orders" (and told him what would happen in seven days) and the day the rains came (seven days later) to bring the animals to Noah. And then, yes, on that seventh day, they all got on the Ark, and God shut the door behind them.

No sir, the animals are in on day 1
Genesis 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

On top of that... and I'm not sure if you are doing this or not... using this detail as some kind of "obvious sign of the Rapture" at the end of the current age is quite ridiculous.

Yeah. God does not use the Bible to explain the Bible............or does He?

In a sense, what God did was bring them all to Jesus, which foreshadows what is happening now ~ God is drawing His elect, both Jew and Gentile, unto Him, and carrying us through the storm, as it were. And one day soon, God's Israel will be complete, and Jesus will return.

The thing that all you that think you have replaced Israel miss is the timing of the events. You have the right conclusion but don't give credence to the timing these events.

I am glad to have this discussion with you as I did pick up on something. I always thought that Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood, but that's not correct. The Word does say it came to pass after 7 days that the flood was upon the earth. However, the first day Noah spent loading himself, his family and all the animals unto the ark. So in reality, Noah was in the ark 6 days before the flood.

 

[PinSeeker]

The term the "same day" is used in Genesis 7:11 to tell us that the same day Noah turned 600 the flood was upon the earth. The term "selfsame day" used in Genesis 7:13 is telling us that on the selfsame days Noah, his family and all of the animals entered the ark and that day was the 1st day not the 7th day as we can see here.

No, it was the seventh day that they entered the ark. Look again, especially the bold print:

"Then the LORD said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you are righteous before me in this generation. Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and his mate, and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and his mate, and seven pairs of the birds of the heavens also, male and female, to keep their offspring alive on the face of all the earth. For in seven days I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and every living thing that I have made I will blot out from the face of the ground.” And Noah did all that the LORD had commanded him.​

​

Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters came upon the earth. And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives with him went into the ark to escape the waters of the flood. Of clean animals, and of animals that are not clean, and of birds, and of everything that creeps on the ground, two and two, male and female, went into the ark with Noah, as God had commanded Noah. And after seven days the waters of the flood came upon the earth.​

​

In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened. And rain fell upon the earth forty days and forty nights. On the very same day Noah and his sons, Shem and Ham and Japheth, and Noah’s wife and the three wives of his sons with them entered the ark, they and every beast, according to its kind, and all the livestock according to their kinds, and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, according to its kind, and every bird, according to its kind, every winged creature. They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath of life. And those that entered, male and female of all flesh, went in as God had commanded him. And the LORD shut him in."​

Everything in the second and third paragraphs is seven days after what the LORD says to Noah in the first paragraph.

The thing that all you that think you have replaced Israel miss is the timing of the events.

That's a caricature. Not sure who you mean by "all you," but I agree that no one has actually replaced Israel. God is still building His Israel ~ as Paul says to the Ephesians:

"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called 'the uncircumcision' by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands ~ remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, Who has made us both one and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:11-22)​

This is inclusion, Light, not "replacement."

You have the right conclusion...

Yes, Jesus will return...

...but don't give credence to the timing these events.

To the timing as supposed by some.

I am glad to have this discussion with you as I did pick up on something. I always thought that Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood, but that's not correct. The Word does say it came to pass after 7 days that the flood was upon the earth.

Halleluia! Yes, not terribly important, really, but yes. Thank you for saying that. I was kind of scratching my head, like, "Come on, this is plain as day..." LOL!

However, the first day Noah spent loading himself, his family and all the animals unto the ark. So in reality, Noah was in the ark 6 days before the flood.

Wait... you're contradicting yourself here... My goodness. No, it says plainly that they Noah and his family and all the animals were loaded onto the Ark the very day ~ the selfsame day, as you said ~ the rains came, which was seven days after God told Noah what was going to happen... Do you still disagree??? Meh. Never mind. The only point anyone was really ever making was that what took place was not any kind of indication of a "rapture" at the end of the age, or a "seven-year Great Tribulation," or anything like that.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

The term the "same day" is used in Genesis 7:11 to tell us that the same day Noah turned 600 the flood was upon the earth. The term "selfsame day" used in Genesis 7:13 is telling us that on the selfsame days Noah, his family and all of the animals entered the ark and that day was the 1st day not the 7th day as we can see here.

Genesis 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

No sir, the animals are in on day 1
Genesis 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Yeah. God does not use the Bible to explain the Bible............or does He?


The thing that all you that think you have replaced Israel miss is the timing of the events. You have the right conclusion but don't give credence to the timing these events.

I am glad to have this discussion with you as I did pick up on something. I always thought that Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood, but that's not correct. The Word does say it came to pass after 7 days that the flood was upon the earth. However, the first day Noah spent loading himself, his family and all the animals unto the ark. So in reality, Noah was in the ark 6 days before the flood.

The way I read this is that they all went in on their own. Like God put something into the minds of the animals to cause them to come to the ark, and go inside.

Genesis 7:13-16 KJV
13) In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
14) They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
15) And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
16) And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

I think Noah was in the ark, and the animals came in to join him.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

To be clear, what I'm talking about is called the Ad Hominem Fallacy, which is Latin for "to the man". Now, most people associate that with bad behavior on the speaker's part, whether it be direct insults, insinuations, things like that. But that's not really the heart of the fallacy.

"To the man" means just that, instead of discussing the topic, you turn the discussion "to the man". Now you are discussing the other speaker.

Let me give you an unrelated example. Let's say we are debating over whether or not part failure was caused by too much metal stress. And I give some facts and figures, and you respond, "But you are not a metalurgist." Rather than comment on the facts and figures you've commented on me. To the man. The thing is, though, whether or not I'm a metalurgist has no bearing on whether or not my facts and figures are correct.

If you want to show the facts and figures are wrong, you are going to have to address them in particular. And it's no good to just say, "but parts don't break that way!", because that likewise does not address the information.

Only by addressing the facts and figures will we come to any conclusions. Ad Hominem is a fallacy because it does not address the topic.

Much love!

ad hominem

hŏm′ə-nĕm″, -nəm

adjective​

1. Attacking a person's character or motivations rather than a position or argument.

Post #62 is FACT based and has no 'ad hominen'

Here are more FACTS

FACT #1 - Separating Jew from Gentile in the Gospel is a SERIOUS TRAGEDY of misconstrued application of Scripture.

FACT #2 - i FULLY understand that JESUS said HE was sent to "the lost sheep of Israel" = Matthew 15:24
Did JESUS refuse the 'woman from Canaan' ??? = NO
Instead HE drew the woman in with HIS initial rejection in order that her FAITH would RISE from within her and MERCY prevailed.

FACT #3 - the pre-trib rapture approach to Scripture seeks to change the GOSPEL by separating Jew from Gentile which is sin.

FACT #4 - Was this spoken to the Jew only? = John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

FACT #5 - Was JESUS sent to the Jews only? = John 1:10-13
"He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become sons of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

FACT #6 - Was JESUS sent to the Jews only? = John 10:14-16
"I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."

FACT #7 - Now, in LIGHT of the GOSPEL, my hope is that you will return to the TRUTH as FACTUALLY shown here from the Scriptures.