Does Christian Universalism sidestep the justice of God?

[St. SteVen]

It is an act of gross negligence for a church to use the word Christian and attach it to Univerisalism.

Unitarian Universalism has churches. Christian Universalism does not.
Christian Universalism is one of three biblical doctrines of the final judgement.
We can be found in any Christian church. Though we must be mostly silent about it.
Otherwise fine folks like you would toss us out like so much trash.

Christian Universalism is growing. Many are dissatisfied with the hell doctrine.
Most of those have left the church all together. Can't say I blame them.
Look at how we are treated.

 

[St. SteVen]

The main implication is that no matter what you believe, or how much you sin, it will all be forgiven.

Well, isn't that a standard tenet of Christian faith?

 

[St. SteVen]

If you do not have a secure relationship with God before you die YOU DO NOT GET A SECOND CHANCE. Where in scripture do you see that there is a second chance after death?

That's a standard claim I am familiar with. I mentioned the Harrowing of Hell earlier.
Captivity was led captive from the Grave. (Sheol)

Anyway... to use your terminology, for many it would be a "first chance", I mean for those who have not even heard.
What about them?

Personally, I don't believe anything is left to "chance".

Are you referring to Hebrews 9:27 when you claim there is no chance after death?
It doesn't actually say that. Here it is,

Hebrews 9:27 NIV
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

 

[Lambano]

Amazing to me that God's Elect are the most merciless people on the planet.
To whom much was given, they are quick to forget.

 

[St. SteVen]

So at death, you are either "in Christ" or not. And with those who are not, their fate is sealed. That is there judgment.
You need to revise your definition of death.

Countless billions have never even heard the name of Jesus. What about them?
Evangelical/fundamentalist doctrine is completely myopic.

 

[St. SteVen]

We're thise in Sodom and Gomorrah saved?

Are you aware that God restored Sodom?

This is a rather long, but interesting, citation about the restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah, Ammon and Moab, Elam, Egypt and Edom. The bit about Edom is most interesting. It discusses the use of exaggerated language (to make a point) in biblical literature. Meaning, it is not to be taken literally.

The restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah from "eternal" fire Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Zephaniah 2:9 Therefore, as surely as I live,” declares the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, “surely Moab will become like Sodom, the Ammonites like Gomorrah— a place of weeds and salt pits, a wasteland forever. The remnant of my people will plunder them; the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.” Ezekiel 16:53 “‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,

The restoration of Ammon and Moab Zephaniah 2:9 Therefore, as surely as I live,” declares the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, “surely Moab will become like Sodom, the Ammonites like Gomorrah— a place of weeds and salt pits, a wasteland forever. The remnant of my people will plunder them; the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.” Jeremiah 25:22, 27 21 Edom, Moab and Ammon; ... 27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’ Jeremiah 49:6 “Yet afterward, I will restore the fortunes of the Ammonites,” declares the Lord. Jeremiah 48:4, 47 4 Moab will be broken; her little ones will cry out. 47 “Yet I will restore the fortunes of Moab in days to come,” declares the Lord. Here ends the judgment on Moab.


The restoration of Elam Jeremiah 25:25, 27 25 all the kings of Zimri, Elam and Media; ... 27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’ Jeremiah 49:39 “Yet I will restore the fortunes of Elam in days to come,” declares the Lord.


The restoration of Egypt
Jeremiah 25:19, 27 19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his attendants, his officials and all his people, ... 27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’ Ezekiel 29:13-14 “‘Yet this is what the Sovereign Lord says: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the nations where they were scattered. 14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edom Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit today with a bypass to get around it. Compare verse ten below. (Revelation 14:11)

Isaiah 34:8-11 For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause. 9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch, her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch! 10 It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again. 11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it; the great owl and the raven will nest there. God will stretch out over Edom the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of desolation.

 

[St. SteVen]

LOL
"I got mine; to hell with everyone else."

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Many are dissatisfied with the hell doctrine.

I do not adhere to the traditional doctrine of eternal hell. Because I believe it is wrong, this does not give me the license to distort many many scriptures about the nature of judgment, death, destruction, as something that is final and perminent.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Well, isn't that a standard tenet of Christian faith?

For those who believe.

Hebrews 9:27 NIV
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

And judgment is either forgiven or not depending on if you were born again during your life.

Countless billions have never even heard the name of Jesus. What about them?

That is an ignorant assumption. Do you know them, their hearts, their lives, what God has revealed to each and every one of them or not? Lol, it is as if you are accusing God with a class action law suit and can't present any evidence for your case. God says in Romans 1 that all are without excuse:
"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" Rom. 1:19-20

, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom a

Fortunes are material things. Trees, crops, gold, silver, the land of milk and honey.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

@St. SteVen Chew on these verses:


"These will pay the penalty of everlasting (age-lasting or age- during) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"
2 Thes. 1:9

"and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."
John 5:29

"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." Rom. 1:28-32

> A reprobate is irredeemable. Simply, God let's these individuals go to love and do the things they want. Throughout life, to be fair, He makes many attempts to draw all men to Himself, to bring the gospel to them and many reject it. They reject Christ to their death and will be judged, condemned to destruction.

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. JOHN 3:16

"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live." Ezek. 18:32
>Turn means to repent before your die! The Bible throughout pleads to the godless to repent ... before it is too late.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt. 10:28

"Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again." Psalm 140:10

Eternal Life Is given during this physical life.

"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me but also to all who have longed for his appearing."
2 Tim. 4:7-8
> This scripture is speaking to believers. Unbelievers do not share this experience or destiny. They haven't fought the fight, they haven't even entered the race and they don't have faith.

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade."
1 Pet. 1:3-4
> A message to believers! This happens only while one is alive. If you die without Christ, you will not have life.

"Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.' John 11:25-26

"Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. Rev. 20:6
> That second death is destruction in the Lake of Fire!

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom. 1:16
> Belief in Christ _ in this life _ is the essence of salvation!

In summation:

"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matt. 7:13:14

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36

A fundamental belief in Universalism is either a denial of the above scriptures or distortion of them!

 

[St. SteVen]

I do not adhere to the traditional doctrine of eternal hell. Because I believe it is wrong, this does not give me the license to distort many many scriptures about the nature of judgment, death, destruction, as something that is final and perminent.

Do you understand that there are three biblical views of the final judgment?
Here's an unbiased explanation of all three views if need be.

Three views of Hell - Steve Gregg

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Countless billions have never even heard the name of Jesus. What about them?

That is an ignorant assumption. Do you know them, their hearts, their lives, what God has revealed to each and every one of them or not? Lol,

What's the current population of China?
How many have heard? Logic says very few.
What about over the eons of history?
An ignorant assumption?

it is as if you are accusing God with a class action law suit and can't present any evidence for your case. God says in Romans 1 that all are without excuse:
"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" Rom. 1:19-20

Yes, I'm familiar with the "without excuse" apologetic.
Without excuse to recognize the creator in creation? Okay.
Where is the gospel in that?

 

[Lambano]

27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Ooo, I found a great graphic illustrating Jeremiah 25:27. I don't want to post it in the "Encouraging Scriptures" thread, though, lest someone be encouraged to "Go thou and do likewise".

 

[Lambano]

LOL
"I got mine; to hell with everyone else."

I can't decide whether to use the LOL emoji or the crying emoji, because I've seen it too.

They say life is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

 

[St. SteVen]

@St. SteVen Chew on these verses:

Will do. You can chew on my replies.
I hope you don't choke. - LOL

"These will pay the penalty of everlasting (age-lasting or age- during) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"
2 Thes. 1:9

Destruction of what? Themselves, or the thing that is keeping them from full restoration?

"and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."
John 5:29

Yes, everyone will be judged, EVERYONE!

"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." Rom. 1:28-32

Note that is God's call as to when to turn someone over to a reprobate mind. It is HIS work of redemption in them.
Are we not ALL worthy of death?

> A reprobate is irredeemable. Simply, God let's these individuals go to love and do the things they want. Throughout life, to be fair, He makes many attempts to draw all men to Himself, to bring the gospel to them and many reject it. They reject Christ to their death and will be judged, condemned to destruction.

Irredeemable? For our omnipotent God.
Wow. You discovered something he CAN'T do? Amazing.
Might cause a theological issue though. - LOL

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. JOHN 3:16

Agree. (no time frame given)

"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live." Ezek. 18:32
>Turn means to repent before your die! The Bible throughout pleads to the godless to repent ... before it is too late.

I see nothing about "before they die".

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt. 10:28

Yes, be VERY afraid.

"Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again." Psalm 140:10

Doctrine based on exaggerated poetic language? Was Jonah actually in hell?

"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me but also to all who have longed for his appearing."
2 Tim. 4:7-8
> This scripture is speaking to believers. Unbelievers do not share this experience or destiny. They haven't fought the fight, they haven't even entered the race and they don't have faith.

Rewards will differ.

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade."
1 Pet. 1:3-4
> A message to believers! This happens only while one is alive. If you die without Christ, you will not have life.

How many billions will that apply to? Is that God;s wonderful plan for humankind created in his image?
Pretty sure he could do better than that. Heaven will be a lonely place. Just you and Jesus. (sigh)

"Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.' John 11:25-26

Agree. What about everyone else?

"Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. Rev. 20:6
> That second death is destruction in the Lake of Fire!

Hell and death end up in the LOF. Right?

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom. 1:16
> Belief in Christ _ in this life _ is the essence of salvation!

In this life? It doesn't say that.

In summation:

"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matt. 7:13:14

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36

The narrow way?
Is God playing a high-stakes game of hide-and-seek with our souls?
Making sport of our eternal destiny?

A fundamental belief in Universalism is either a denial of the above scriptures or distortion of them!

Respond to my comments. Thanks.

 

[St. SteVen]

I do not adhere to the traditional doctrine of eternal hell. Because I believe it is wrong, this does not give me the license to distort many many scriptures about the nature of judgment, death, destruction, as something that is final and perminent.

What about the eternal torment, the everlasting fire, the smoke of their torment rising forever, the worm that does not die?

 

[Lizbeth]

I'm not familiar with that. Is that actually in the Bible?
Or something a preacher said?

Jde 1:22-23

And of some have compassion, making a difference:

And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

 

[Lizbeth]

Amazing to me that God's Elect are the most merciless people on the planet.
To whom much was given, they are quick to forget.

What is merciful is to warn and tell people before it is too late, that they may get on board the Ark before the judgment comes. As Jesus was faithful to do.

Luk 13:23-28

Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

 

[St. SteVen]

LOL
"I got mine; to hell with everyone else."

@Lambano
Hopefully you knew that was a parody of the typical attitude of church folk. (tribalism)

 

[St. SteVen]

What is merciful is to warn and tell people before it is too late, that they may get on board the Ark before the judgment comes. As Jesus was faithful to do.

Will everyone be warned?
What of those who are not?