The 144,000 before God at the end.

[David in NJ]

READ SLOWLY MY FRIEND

Read s-l-o-w-l-y and do not doubt = lay down in green pastures and chew the cud

 

[ewq1938]

...as you sit there watching and waiting for the AC.
According to you Jesus will only come on the white horses after the gt.
In your mind, the coming of Jesus is years off and it would be ridiculous to watch and wait.

That is sad. Even the 5 foolish virgins had enough revelation to watch and wait.

All this is something the 5 foolish virgins would say.

 

[ewq1938]

This is correct. The 6th seal shows the second coming when all eyes will see the coming of the Lord. This is a harvest when Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. The gathering happens immediately after the tribulation and before the day of the Lord.


Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. During the wrath of God Jesus is in heaven for the marriage supper. When the marriage supper concludes Jesus returns with the armies of heaven and sets up His kingdom. This is the second advent when Christ returns to the earth.

So if you think that Christ only comes once, that would make you a post wrather, wouldn't it? Because don't you think that He comes at the end of wrath?

Post trib or after the tribulation is automatically also pre-wrath or before the wrath of God. Both are true. Christ returns after the GT is over, just before the wrath of God begins. It's more commonly referred to as post-trib to distinguish against the concept of a pre-trib coming.

There is a minority that believe Jesus returns at the 7th vial, which would be post-wrath since the first 6 vials of wrath take place before the Return.

 

[David in NJ]

Noah was a prejudgment dynamic.
"Prewrath" doctrine would need noah in a "correct" setting of the AC killing all on the planet refusing the mark. ..nope
Noah is a pretrib rapture dynamic.

The Fallen Angels(AC preview) were killing off the planet during Noah's day.

Noah was, in fact, in the "correct" setting whereby he is the EXAMPLE given by the LORD for us to expect as we wait for the LORD'S 2nd Coming.

And there is MORE to confirm Post-Trib/Pre-Wrath Return of Christ.

 

[amigo de christo]

The Fallen Angels(AC preview) were killing off the planet during Noah's day.

Noah was, in fact, in the "correct" setting whereby he is the EXAMPLE given by the LORD for us to expect as we wait for the LORD'S 2nd Coming.

And there is MORE to confirm Post-Trib/Pre-Wrath Return of Christ.

march onwards in the LORD my friend . He is our hope and our salvation .

 

[ewq1938]

The Fallen Angels(AC preview) were killing off the planet during Noah's day.

Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat_24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


The marriages and drinking symbolizes the tribulation where the wicked live wildly and feel they are safe and everything is great. Little do they know a flood of wrath will come at the 7th trump and uproot their sick lifestyle.


Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

This is the same timeframe and mentality of the wicked during the GT. It's all over 3.5 days later...

 

[Timtofly]

Anyone in heaven does not need to be gathered. It's people on the Earth who are spread all over the Earth that need to be gathered so they can be in one place.

Have you been there?

Heaven would cover more area than earth does, especially if you think the world is a sphere. Heaven would be a bigger sphere than the earth, and more available area, since there are no oceans.

Heaven is not the moon, just a relatively small area.

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

You cannot say heaven is smaller than the earth as that is physically impossible. If souls are gathered from one end of the earth to the other, and heaven is still above every part of the earth, then they are scattered around heaven even more so than on the earth.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Post-trib does not pin point the hour of the LORD'S Coming.

Read Matthew ch24 again as well as 1st & 2nd Thessalonians

And yet y'all use "last trump" ,(which is predictable), as your banner and foundation, once the AC arrives.

 

[rebuilder 454]

This is yet another dilemma for anything but pretrib rapture.
That the other positions place the rapture as predictable.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The second coming IS aligned with the rapture . And it do cometh after the great wrath of the dragon
and of the beast cometh against the true lambs . THEN GOD gonna TRIBULATE them all who loved a lie
who persecuted the lambs . Fear not to suffer . And my advice is , DO NOT take any kind
of chip or tattoe in or on that skin my friend . MANY WILL . MANY WILL .
Folks aint been paying attention to what is and has been going on my friend .

Is rev 14 when Jesus COMES during the trib to gather the Jews, the same as His coming post wrath on white horses with the saints?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Revelation repeats the Second Coming in the 6th Seal and in the 7th Trumpet and in chapter 19.

Reveltion is a FLUID REVEALING, NOT a strict chronology, but a revealing of the Alpha & Omega and His Second Coming.
Including what MUST take place BEFORE His Second Coming = 7 churches, PERSECUTION, ANTICHRIST, ENDURANCE.

Any time you see "then" it is a timeline.
I don't need "then" for every reference to timeline.
Timeline is there .
But since you skip verses, and deny the separate comings, your starting place is compromised.
For example; the concept of "firstfruits" is not understood in your doctrine.
Neither is "before the flood"
Neither is "virgin", "lamps", "light",or "oil".
You actually ascribe those components of the virgins parable to the heathen.
Verses like; "two shall be on a housetop, one taken, the other left, watch therefore, for you know not when the Lord comes"
....is actually Jesus taking them to destruction!
Dear Lord...that is bizarre.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You are the one preaching a physical escape as a protection.

How biblical is that?
The bible destroys your theory.
Lot
Noah
The baby Jesus
Oh, and what about the Jews ushered to safety to ESCAPE the devil , possibly to petra, where the devil sends a flood after them in rev?

 

[The Light]

Revelation repeats the Second Coming in the 6th Seal and in the 7th Trumpet and in chapter 19.

The 6th seal is certainly the second coming. However, the 7th trumpet and Chapter 19 are the second advent when Jesus returns to earth.

I'm not sure why you are not getting this. It's simple. The signs of the sun, moon and stars MARK the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. It is immediately after the tribulation. Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect. He does not go to war yet. He does not come to the earth yet. WRATH has yet to begin and will not begin until AFTER the 7th seal is opened. Tribulation is not wrath.

Revelation 6
2 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


So, the second coming is the 6th seal when Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Jesus remains in the clouds as seen here.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

 

[ewq1938]

How biblical is that?
The bible destroys your theory.

No, it doesn't. No one is protected from satan's tribulation. No one is physically removed to avoid that. The church endures the tribulation, many if not most being killed. Only some survivors of the GT will be raptured.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [tereo ek] from the evil one.

Jesus did not pray that God would take people out of this world to keep them from the evil one. That means Jesus does not approve of rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one. Since Jesus does not approve of that then why do you (anyone reading that believes in a pre-trib rapture that takes people out of this world to keep them from the evil one) support such a concept?

No one is going to be taken out of the world so they can be "kept" from the evil one. That's not how God does things. The rapture is not an exception to that.

Anyone teaching a Pre-trib rapture is going directly against the teaching of Jesus in the above verse.

 

[ewq1938]

The 6th seal is certainly the second coming.

It is not. It describes the future second coming. Seals are not action (events happening). The trumps are action (events happening).

 

[The Light]

Post trib or after the tribulation is automatically also pre-wrath or before the wrath of God. Both are true.

I agree 100%. Post trib is pre-wrath.

Christ returns after the GT is over, just before the wrath of God begins. It's more commonly referred to as post-trib to distinguish against the concept of a pre-trib coming.

Agree 100%

There is a minority that believe Jesus returns at the 7th vial, which would be post-wrath since the first 6 vials of wrath take place before the Return.

Here is David in NJ's comment.
"Revelation repeats the Second Coming in the 6th Seal and in the 7th Trumpet and in chapter 19."

David is saying that the 6th seal is the second coming........which is correct.

Then he says that we see the second coming in the 7th trumpet and in Chapter 19. This cannot be correct. The 7th trumpet is the end of wrath. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. CHRIST HAS SET UP HIS KINGDOM ON EARTH. Wrath is OVER. It is the time of judgement.

As for Revelation 19, it is when Jesus returns with the armies of heaven at the end of wrath. Wrath is not over, but Armageddon is getting ready to happen. The 7th vial is ALSO the end of wrath. The trumpets and vials happen in the same timeframe.

In conclusion, @David in NJ cannot be correct that the 6th seal second coming is the 7th trumpet second advent.

 

[The Light]

No, it doesn't. No one is protected from satan's tribulation. No one is physically removed to avoid that. The church endures the tribulation, many if not most being killed. Only some survivors of the GT will be raptured.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [tereo ek] from the evil one.

Jesus did not pray that God would take people out of this world to keep them from the evil one. That means Jesus does not approve of rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one. Since Jesus does not approve of that then why do you (anyone reading that believes in a pre-trib rapture that takes people out of this world to keep them from the evil one) support such a concept?

No one is going to be taken out of the world so they can be "kept" from the evil one. That's not how God does things. The rapture is not an exception to that.

Anyone teaching a Pre-trib rapture is going directly against the teaching of Jesus in the above verse.

Jesus is talking about the disciples. They have to remain to spread the Word of God. We are at the end of the age. We do not have to remain. One will be taken and one left. We are taken to heaven for the marriage supper.

 

[The Light]

It is not. It describes the future second coming. Seals are not action (events happening). The trumps are action (events happening).

Where do you get this stuff? The trumpets cannot happen UNTIL the 7th seal is opened. After the 7th seal is opened, the trumpets can happen, and not before.

When seals are opened, the event will happen.

When the 6th seal is opened, Jesus will return for the second coming harvest before the wrath of God. When the 7th seal is opened wrath will begin when the 1st trumpet sounds. Wrath will end when the 7th trumpet sounds.

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord...........Christ has set up His kingdom on earth. Judgement will happen. Wrath is OVER.

 

[David in NJ]

And yet y'all use "last trump" ,(which is predictable), as your banner and foundation, once the AC arrives.

To the astonishment and shock of pre-tribbers, the Apostle Paul knew about the "last trump":

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[David in NJ]

Any time you see "then" it is a timeline.
I don't need "then" for every reference to timeline.
Timeline is there .
But since you skip verses, and deny the separate comings, your starting place is compromised.
For example; the concept of "firstfruits" is not understood in your doctrine.
Neither is "before the flood"
Neither is "virgin", "lamps", "light",or "oil".
You actually ascribe those components of the virgins parable to the heathen.
Verses like; "two shall be on a housetop, one taken, the other left, watch therefore, for you know not when the Lord comes"
....is actually Jesus taking them to destruction!
Dear Lord...that is bizarre.

In Revelation, "then" denotes what the Apostle John was shown 'next'.

Did you ever notice that God repeated the 'blood sacrifices' every year since it points to Christ and His Sacrifice?

Same with the 7 feasts repeating every year.

Same with the 7th day/sabbath repeating weekly = until Christ came and fulfilled them all.