One reason why the rapture can not be post-trib

[Timtofly]

Can you prove from the Scriptures there will be a millennial kingdom on this earth after Christ comes again? If you cannot prove this assumption, perhaps you need to re-think "a thousand years" of Rev 20???

Was John assuming that he lived during the thousand years? Can you prove that assumption? If not, why is that your assumption?

You think it was a dream, no?

How was John physically living out a dream?

What John wrote and sent to the 7 churches was this manuscript called Revelation. It was all future to them, including chapter 20 containing a period of 1,000 years. No where is it explained, that period of time started at the Cross. So that is your assumption to prove. No one who read the letter in the first and second centuries assumed that, except for a few heretics, later on. The burden is for you to prove Revelation was not about the future.

The proof is that Revelation 20 comes between 19 and 21. John does not say this 1,000 years happens in conjunction with chapters 2 and 3 concerning those specific 7 churches. Those beheaded and those with the mark happen in conjunction with Revelation 13 at the time of the 7th Trumpet. That is the only period of time those two points are even relative to each other. Many humans have been beheaded throughout human history. Yet you are not claiming yourself, John the Baptist is the primary example of these beheaded souls. Has John the Baptist been resurrected and still reigning on earth since the Cross? Can you prove that?

 

[Timtofly]

The millennium has numbers like the sand of the sea that are clearly not in the book of life.

How? At what point are they not in the Lamb's book of life? Were they born, not in the Lamb's book of life? Then they were never marked for redemption, if they were never in the Lamb's book of life. What is the purpose of the Millennium where people are born but never in the Lamb's book of life?

Would they not start out at birth in the Lamb's book of life, until they are removed? At what point are they removed then? Seems when they are consumed by fire is the point they are removed from the Lamb's book of life.

Do you think all people born since Seth were never in the Lamb's book of life at birth? Did they earn the chance to be in the Lamb's book of life? If so, what was the Cross for if every human had to earn a spot by doing something? Then you have to point out at what point in life are people placed in the Lamb's book of life. At the GWT judgment?

 

[PinSeeker]

The rapture can not be post trib because if all the believers were raptured at the time of the second coming, there would be no one left in mortal bodies to live into the 1,000 year reign and re-populate the earth.

At the root of all is that the events of Revelation 20 are not sequential to Revelation 19:11-21, for basically the same reason you point out here. There is no "rapture" ~ it can be neither pre-tribulation or post-tribulation. I think most here, if not all, understand Revelation 19:11-21 to depict the return of Christ... His second coming. If the events of Revelation 20 were chronologically sequential to Revelation 19:11-21, the inescapable implication would be that, since all Christ’s enemies have been/are destroyed in Revelation 19:11-21, then, regarding Revelation 20:1-6, there would be/is no one left for Satan to deceive in 20:3.

So the correct implication of this is, Revelation 20:1-6 is a "starting over," another, different vision of the same events preceding what is described in Revelation 19:11-21.

Revelation 20:1-15 is to be seen as a seventh cycle leading to the Second Coming. It parallels all the other cycles, rather than representing a unique period chronologically later than any of the others. This is the pattern, generally speaking, of Revelation itself as a whole; it is a series of different but parallel visions with regard to time. In other words, all these visions, which we might call cycles of judgment, cover the same period leading up to the Second Coming. Moreover, later cycles concentrate more and more on the most intense phases of conflict and on the Second Coming itself, which we can easily see in the sixth cycle culminating in Revelation 19:11-21 and the seventh culminating in Revelation 20:7-15. The latter really ends at Revelation 21:8 and all evil is eliminated, whereas at the end of Revelation 19, only the "power source" of evil has been eliminated.

There is no "rapture," pre-tribulation or post-tribulation. We are in the time of tribulation now... now is the millennial reign of Christ, our King now, Who reigns now, and is with us in the person of the Holy Spirit now, just as He said He would be in Matthew 28:19-20:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."​

And one day ~ one great day, when this millennium is brought to a close, when, as Paul says, the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and the partial hardening that has come upon Israel is removed... in this way all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25-26) ~ it will be brought to an end. All evil will finally be eliminated. The second resurrection will occur, alluded to by Jesus in John 5:28-29, and the final Judgment will ensue, as we see in Revelation 20:11-15 (alluded to by Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23 and depicted by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46), and sin and death will finally be completely defeated.

To God alone be the glory ~ Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ~ forever and ever!

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Timtofly]

That doesn't happen at the second coming. It happens long after it, at the GWTJ which is not held upon the Earth.

Only the two beasts are cast into fire at the second coming, Rev 19. The rest of the unsaved are ruled over also written in Rev 18. The unsaved are not judged and thrown into fire until after the Millennium, after the little season rebellion, after satan is cast into the LOF and after the GWTJ which is the proper timeframe for the goats being judged and sent to the fire.

Now you claim the Second Coming is not until the sheep and goat judgment, you allege as the GWT.

This is the Second Coming:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations."

Jesus claims the Second Coming is with the angels. They are gathering the sheep and goats alive to stand before Jesus as King in Jerusalem. These sheep are the remnant of Israel redeemed from out of all nations, per the fact nations stand here before being physically removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The goats are cast into the LOF at that point. We know the LOF will exist at the Second Coming. The FP and beast are cast into the LOF 1,000 years before the GWT judgment event.

 

[teamventure]

That doesn't happen at the second coming. It happens long after it, at the GWTJ which is not held upon the Earth.

The second coming is described along with the sheep and the goats judgement:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Matthew 25:31‭-‬33 NIV

That is clearly a description of the arrival of Christ not a description of him already present in his reign.
The second coming and sheep and goats judgement are described in the same passage as back to back events to clearly to refute.

 

[teamventure]

Though the NIV makes it difficult to see, this verse tells us these martyred saints are now living (spirit) souls in heaven after physical death because during their lifetimes they lived and reigned with Christ. John equates their lifetimes to a thousand years of time on this earth.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This verse does not say these saints will physically come to life again to live and reign with Christ for ONE thousand years. They would not be alive in heaven after physical death if they had not first lived and reigned with Christ during this time symbolized a thousand years.

The thousand years are literal.

 

[jeffweeder]

How? At what point are they not in the Lamb's book of life?

All those who are not in the book of life will worship the beast and have their part in the Lake of fire. The beast is destroyed at the second coming yes?
The mark is taken prior to the Lords second coming, so all those people who enter your future millennium after the Lord comes again are not in the book of life. Its that simple.
Please tell me you understand this.

1. All the inhabitants of the earth will fall down and worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain [as a willing sacrifice].
   
   
2. Revelation 17:8
   “The beast that you saw was [once], but [now] is not, and he is about to come up out of the abyss (the bottomless pit, the dwelling place of demons) and go to destruction (perdition). And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, will be astonished when they see the beast, because he was and is not and is yet to come [to earth].

Rev 14
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “Whoever worships the beast and his image and receives the mark [of the beast] on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he too will [have to] drink of the wine of the wrath of God, mixed undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone (flaming sulfur) in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb (Christ). 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night—those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

 

[rwb]

Was John assuming that he lived during the thousand years? Can you prove that assumption? If not, why is that your assumption?

Yes John did live during this time symbolized a thousand years. Since John had not yet died he was not of the group of martyrs John understood were alive in heaven after physical death. John reigned with Christ a thousand years without being martyred, belonging to the blessed and holy having part in the first resurrection, thereby overcoming the second death. John as well as all who reign in life with Christ in TIME (a thousand years) but are not martyred for faith "shall reign" with Him, unlike those of vs 4 who had already lived and reigned with Christ in life (time; a thousand years).

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

John was not dreaming he was given a vision from heaven. He did not physically see spirits as living souls alive in heaven. But he was given to know or understand that death has no power of those who are of faith. Because physical death is simply ascending as living (spirit) souls to heaven for all who die in Christ.

 

[teamventure]

All those who are not in the book of life will worship the beast and have their part in the Lake of fire. The beast is destroyed at the second coming yes?
The mark is taken prior to the Lords second coming, so all those people who enter your future millennium after the Lord comes again are not in the book of life. Its that simple.
Please tell me you understand this.

1. All the inhabitants of the earth will fall down and worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain [as a willing sacrifice].
   
   
2. Revelation 17:8
   “The beast that you saw was [once], but [now] is not, and he is about to come up out of the abyss (the bottomless pit, the dwelling place of demons) and go to destruction (perdition). And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, will be astonished when they see the beast, because he was and is not and is yet to come [to earth].

Rev 14
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “Whoever worships the beast and his image and receives the mark [of the beast] on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he too will [have to] drink of the wine of the wrath of God, mixed undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone (flaming sulfur) in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb (Christ). 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night—those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

It's so much simpler than people make it out to be.
Thank you for the clarity of your post.

 

[Timtofly]

We are in the time of tribulation now... now is the millennial reign of Christ

The Millennium of rest is the same Millennium of tribulation?

Is that why some live easy lives and others are martyred?

 

[jeffweeder]

The thousand years are literal.

Those years are symbolic of a period of time before the Lord comes in a flame of fire.
If people know their bibles and live in a proposed future millennium after the second coming, they would be able to discern the precise moment they end and satan little season begins. They do not know and are deluded by satans little season in all power of deception.

People who refuse to repent are given enough rope that they hang themselves in the coming time of satans unlimited power and deception.

2thess 2
8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming. 9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Timtofly]

All those who are not in the book of life will worship the beast and have their part in the Lake of fire. The beast is destroyed at the second coming yes?
The mark is taken prior to the Lords second coming, so all those people who enter your future millennium after the Lord comes again are not in the book of life. Its that simple.
Please tell me you understand this.

1. All the inhabitants of the earth will fall down and worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain [as a willing sacrifice].
   
   
2. Revelation 17:8
   “The beast that you saw was [once], but [now] is not, and he is about to come up out of the abyss (the bottomless pit, the dwelling place of demons) and go to destruction (perdition). And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, will be astonished when they see the beast, because he was and is not and is yet to come [to earth].

Rev 14
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “Whoever worships the beast and his image and receives the mark [of the beast] on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he too will [have to] drink of the wine of the wrath of God, mixed undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone (flaming sulfur) in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb (Christ). 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night—those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

No, only the sheep enter the Millennium. The goats do not enter the Millennium. The goats are removed from the Lamb's book of life as they are tossed into the LOF.

These are living humans, not those who have physically died over the last 6,000 years.

The same with the tares and the wheat. Billions of humans living at the Second Coming. The tares are cast alive into the LOF as they are removed from the Lamb's book of life. The wheat enter the Millennium. No one enters in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. All are given permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They live and never die again. They have offspring for a thousand years subduing the earth as they were meant to do before Adam disobeyed God.

Those beheaded or take the mark are after all the sheep, wheat, goats, and tares have all been physically removed from the earth. The sheep and wheat are those on white horses coming at Armageddon. All those with the mark are all who show up at Armageddon to be killed, and tossed into the LOF with the FP and beast. Or at least remain dead until the GWT a thousand years later.

The only people on earth at that point are those returning on white horses. They are the sheep and the wheat. Every one else was already killed or beheaded at that point.

 

[jeffweeder]

No, only the sheep enter the Millennium. The goats do not enter the Millennium.

Complete nonsense.
The sheep will forever be with the Lord in the place prepared. Nothing temporary (1000 years) about that.
Those that belong to the lord inherit Eden from the foundation of the world while the Goats are thrown into the LOF. MATT 13 AND 25. 2thess 1

They have offspring for a thousand years subduing the earth as they were meant to do before Adam disobeyed God.

If that is true then their offspring would not be born in sin as we are glorified at his coming. You are suggesting all them children rebel and are destroyed by fire...more complete nonsense. Once we are glorified we will not be given in marriage.

Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection neither do men marry nor are women given in marriage, but they are like angels in heaven [who do not marry nor produce children].

Read your bible Tim.

 

[PinSeeker]

The Millennium of rest is the same Millennium of tribulation?

LOL! The millennium is certainly not a time of rest... :)

Is that why some live easy lives and others are martyred?

Do you not think that even those who live "easy lives" have many problems ~ much tribulation ~ of their own? Life is hard for everyone, no matter how "easy" it looks from the outside looking in. If you don't think so, you're not living in reality.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ewq1938]

The second coming is described along with the sheep and the goats judgement:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Matthew 25:31‭-‬33 NIV

That is clearly a description of the arrival of Christ not a description of him already present in his reign.

It's an arrival but not to the Earth because the GWTJ where people are cast into everlasting fire does not take place on the Earth. Therefore that passage is not the second coming to Earth but a first coming to the LOF location.

The second coming and sheep and goats judgement are described in the same passage as back to back events to clearly to refute.

The goats are not sent to fire at the second coming.

 

[ewq1938]

All those who are not in the book of life will worship the beast and have their part in the Lake of fire. The beast is destroyed at the second coming yes?
The mark is taken prior to the Lords second coming, so all those people who enter your future millennium after the Lord comes again are not in the book of life. Its that simple.
Please tell me you understand this.

1. All the inhabitants of the earth will fall down and worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain [as a willing sacrifice].

If "all" there is literal then I guess you believe the two witnesses, the 144k and those who are raptured are also not in the book of life? Or you are incorrect, and not literally all on the Earth at that time are absent from the book of life.

Prophecy also speaks of Christ ruling in the midst of his enemies. Obviously marked people would be his enemies and non-marked would not. Also, let's not pretend the Amill Millennium which is now is not full of people who are not in the book of life. The Premill Millennium is vastly superior to the Amill version.

 

[PinSeeker]

The thousand years are literal.

Well, the time period is a very literal time period... symbolized by the number 1,000, which denotes completeness, fullness... Like:

• "I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments" (Exodus 20:5-6)
• "Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations" (Deuteronomy 7:9)
• "(a)ll the beasts of the forest are (the Lord's), the cattle on a thousand hills" (Psalm 50:10),
• "But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8, a reference by Peter to Psalm 90:4, where David sings, "For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night.")

It is the time in which God gathers His Israel, which includes both Jew and Gentile, to Himself, and we are in the midst of it, perhaps very close to the end, to the time of Christ's return. As Paul says in Romans 11:25, "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in... (a)nd in this way all Israel will be saved..." When the number is complete, however long ~ to you and me ~ that takes, in that fullness of God's time... THAT is God's millennium.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[teamventure]

The goats are not sent to fire at the second coming.

Then where do they go?

Scripture says otherwise:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25:41‭, ‬46 NIV

 

[jeffweeder]

Or you are incorrect, and not literally all on the Earth at that time are absent from the book of life.

You have to make up your mind.
Its impossible to be sure without Scripture.

 

[ewq1938]

You have to make up your mind.
Its impossible to be sure without Scripture.

You avoided the question:

If "all" there is literal then I guess you believe the two witnesses, the 144k and those who are raptured are also not in the book of life?