Like people rescued by lifeboats who jumped a sinking ship... They are saved.
Once they get on shore, and find their home ... They are resurrected.
Once saved, always saved is a myth.
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Like people rescued by lifeboats who jumped a sinking ship... They are saved.
Once they get on shore, and find their home ... They are resurrected.
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
This is the only letter in the Reformed/Calvinistic, TULIP that I agree with, the "P", which is "The Perseverance of the Saints".
We have some very interesting passages from the Teachings of Jesus Christ Himself, on this very Doctrine.
In John chapter 5, we read of Jesus' discussion with the Jews, in verse 24 He says:
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life"
The Words, "But has passed from death into life", is "ἀλλὰ μεταβέβηκεν ἐκ τοῦ θανάτου εἰς τὴν ζωήν", where we have the use of the Perfect active indicative of "μεταβαίνο", which means that those who believe in Jesus Christ, and are born-again in this present time, have already, upon believing, been transferred from spiritual death to eternal live. Jesus is here speaking, not simply about "the New Birth", but, the "Eternal Life" of the saved believer, which has already taken place
We then have three other places in this Gospel, where the Greek text says different to what we have in the English translations
John 8:51; ""Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death." (NKJV, and others)
The Greek reads: "οὐ μὴ θεωρήσῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα"
Note the use here of the double negative, "οὐ μὴ", NEVER BY NO MEANS, is what Jesus is saying here.
Jesus is not saying that these will never die physically, but they will NEVER, EVER, die spiritually, which is ETERNAL LIFE!
In John 10:28, Jesus says, "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand" (NKJV and others)
However, in the Greek it reads: "καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα", which is literally in English, "and they shall certainly not perish forever". Again the use here of the double negative, "οὐ μὴ", NEVER BY NO MEANS. The negative here belongs to the verb, "ἀπόλωνται (perish)", and gives the very strong meaning, "they shall never, by no means, die for all eternity".
The same in found in the Greek text in the following chapter, in verse 26, Jesus assures Martha:
"And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (NKJV, and others)
In the Greek we have, "οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα", which is the same as the previous verses.
Why the English versions do not correctly translate what the Greek actually says in these passages, is a mystery!
The powerful language used by Jesus Himself, Who is Almighty God, is the Greatest Assurance that any true believer in Him can have on their Eternal Life with Him, from the moment they are saved!
We have some very interesting passages from the Teachings of Jesus Christ Himself, on this very Doctrine.
In John chapter 5, we read of Jesus' discussion with the Jews, in verse 24 He says:
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life"
The Words, "But has passed from death into life", is "ἀλλὰ μεταβέβηκεν ἐκ τοῦ θανάτου εἰς τὴν ζωήν", where we have the use of the Perfect active indicative of "μεταβαίνο", which means that those who believe in Jesus Christ, and are born-again in this present time, have already, upon believing, been transferred from spiritual death to eternal live. Jesus is here speaking, not simply about "the New Birth", but, the "Eternal Life" of the saved believer, which has already taken place
We then have three other places in this Gospel, where the Greek text says different to what we have in the English translations
John 8:51; ""Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death." (NKJV, and others)
The Greek reads: "οὐ μὴ θεωρήσῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα"
Note the use here of the double negative, "οὐ μὴ", NEVER BY NO MEANS, is what Jesus is saying here.
Jesus is not saying that these will never die physically, but they will NEVER, EVER, die spiritually, which is ETERNAL LIFE!
In John 10:28, Jesus says, "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand" (NKJV and others)
However, in the Greek it reads: "καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα", which is literally in English, "and they shall certainly not perish forever". Again the use here of the double negative, "οὐ μὴ", NEVER BY NO MEANS. The negative here belongs to the verb, "ἀπόλωνται (perish)", and gives the very strong meaning, "they shall never, by no means, die for all eternity".
The same in found in the Greek text in the following chapter, in verse 26, Jesus assures Martha:
"And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (NKJV, and others)
In the Greek we have, "οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα", which is the same as the previous verses.
Why the English versions do not correctly translate what the Greek actually says in these passages, is a mystery!
The powerful language used by Jesus Himself, Who is Almighty God, is the Greatest Assurance that any true believer in Him can have on their Eternal Life with Him, from the moment they are saved!
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You really should be preaching the prodigal son, not true/false salvation.
Does the Devil believe in the prodigal son? No!
Does the Devil believe in the prodigal son? No!
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Pretty long post. It is no surprise that I see no interest in morals in this post.
Dire Straits.....Money for nothing.....the theme song as evil dances into heaven for a party and bongs.
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ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
A Doctrine as important as the Eternal Security of the believer, needs a deep response, especially when the actual words of the Lord Jesus Christ have been misrepresented in the translations from the Greek
you speak of "morals", there is not even ONE born-again Christian who is or can be SINLESS! But we still must strive to live godly lives with the help of the Holy Spirit.
The rise and fall and rise again, of King David is a good example of "morals" and the Grace, Mercy, Love, Forgiveness and Longsuffering of the Great God of the Holy Bible! David sinned many great sins, but was genuinely REPENTANT before God!
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
It has been conjectured that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and there are places in the Gospels that show this. However the New Testament was Originally written in Koine Greek as preserved in the manuscript evidence that has come down to us
Some of the early Church Fathers also said that Jesus used Aramaic and Matthew and John were supposed to have been written in it. Again this is conjecture
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Again Eternal Security and OSAS are two different things. See posts 77, 90, 93, and 100.
OSAS is a modern concept very much links to the New Age movements and leftists extremes of immoral behavior. And those that push it generally have some sort of lifestyle sins they are trying to justify and preach people can live like this and still go to Heaven as long as they believe in Christ,
And again Christian salvation has nothing to do with sinless but then it is not a license to sin. The whole New Testament, Christ and the Apostles testify that Christianity is a religion of morals....Early Christian writings and Christian history define Christianity as a religion of morals. Nothing in Christian history describes Heaven as a destination or reward for evil.
2nd Corinthians :5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”
Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But still Christianity is not about being sinless or perfect but rather a sincere attempt to be good and do good for others.
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
Biblically there is no difference between Eternal Security and Once Saved Always Saved. Both terms teach the same thing, that no truly born-again believer, can ever lose their salvation.
Both are the same as Eternal Salvation, as there can be no "loss" of salvation for any truly born-again believer, otherwise it renders the term "Eternal", void!
You know,
Whats cool to me is Jesus Christ has saved all people from satan, sin, hades, death (spiritual death), the false prophet, the beast, God's wrath that was poured out on Jerusalem.
That is for everyone.
What they are not saved to is - the Kingdom...
why?
Unbelief, doubt, non-faith, unbelieving - rather have their will over his and not trusting in the the death, burial, and resurrection.
God will judge. I don't have no reason to judge anyone. Just to remind you, don't start doubting, and dont let the spirit of unbelief creep into your heart....
There are people who are saved in Jesus time, and he explains "Lord Lord havent we" and he says "depart I never knew you"
Be careful! Love God and love others, have faith and trust in God and his son.
Whats cool to me is Jesus Christ has saved all people from satan, sin, hades, death (spiritual death), the false prophet, the beast, God's wrath that was poured out on Jerusalem.
That is for everyone.
What they are not saved to is - the Kingdom...
why?
Unbelief, doubt, non-faith, unbelieving - rather have their will over his and not trusting in the the death, burial, and resurrection.
God will judge. I don't have no reason to judge anyone. Just to remind you, don't start doubting, and dont let the spirit of unbelief creep into your heart....
There are people who are saved in Jesus time, and he explains "Lord Lord havent we" and he says "depart I never knew you"
Be careful! Love God and love others, have faith and trust in God and his son.
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
I was born-again on the 23rd February 1982. Since this day I have NEVER ONCE doubted any of the Teachings of the Holy Bible, as the Holy Trinity, of Three Distinct and 100% Coequal Persons; the full Deity of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, etc, nor the total Infallibility and Inerrancy of the 66 Books of the Original Autographs of the Holy Bible
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
LOL Biblically OSAS does not exist. You have to ignore a lot of the scriptures to think that.
Judgment Day is eternal....either Heaven or Hell. To get to Judgment Day we workout or salvation with fear and trembling. Try pulling your license to sin card on Judgment Day....You can not Play Christ for a fool.
Be good and do good.
Now if Jesus has yet to come back....
Yeah people are still going to hell.
I believe he already came back so my beliefs are slightly different than most peoples.
I see it being the inside of the kingdom or outside of the kingdom as the destination.
Yeah people are still going to hell.
I believe he already came back so my beliefs are slightly different than most peoples.
I see it being the inside of the kingdom or outside of the kingdom as the destination.
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
Sorry,
Just hard to believe, a doctrine that is so dangerous at least in my opinion.
I trust Jesus on the matters, personally. @ByGraceThroughFaith.
People can say all kinds of things, and that is fine. I love those who differ with me - but when it comes down to reading that bible... that is where people will find out what is true and what is not true.
Just hard to believe, a doctrine that is so dangerous at least in my opinion.
I trust Jesus on the matters, personally. @ByGraceThroughFaith.
People can say all kinds of things, and that is fine. I love those who differ with me - but when it comes down to reading that bible... that is where people will find out what is true and what is not true.
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