Once saved, always saved is a myth.

[MatthewG]

When it comes to "God Electing People" That almost always deals with Jesus and his apostles.... and those people at the time (you read in the opening letters of people being elect at that time). Claiming as though you are one of the 'elect' That is a big lie @CadyandZoe. People misuse scripture .. and even scripture can puff up individuals to be prideful. There is also a lot of conditions - when it comes down to Jesus coming back - whom were also elected at that time, Just read revelation 2 and 3.



Therefore a lot of the stuff people conjure up is just junk...


"Oh God elected me, and I didn't have no choice "- ya ya - well do they meet the conditions of the time?

Maybe some do... idk, but I don't believe anyone is "elected today", people are called, and they respond they believe, or they dont, that is all there is too really simple. People can disagree - it doesn't matter but truth will win out and that is something to rejoice in. If you read John 14-15, you see that jesus says "you didn't choose me I chose you", but he is talking to his disciples at that time, and that can be misused to say... "Jesus chose me, I didn't choose Jesus" - while it's humble stance it doesn't make the context true for them today.


One more thing "If you are elect and other people arent - brother, sister, cousin that was not elect, is damned to for hell forever.. sorry sis, bro, cuz."


Think about it... don't just believe what people come up with as far as doctrine and be encouraged to read the bible, and really consider the context.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

but when it comes down to reading that bible... that is where people will find out what is true and what is not true.

but your own "theology" is not from the Bible!

 

[MatthewG]

but your own "theology" is not from the Bible!

You are getting into harassment territory now. Theology is just the study of God. That is all it means, sir.

My encouragement is no matter how old an individual may be, is to continue to seek out God, and to read that bible.

Have a good day, gotta go on to work; see ya.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

You are getting into harassment territory now

nonsense! just pointing out facts

 

[MatthewG]

If you keep going it will be harassment, @ByGraceThroughFaith and I will report you for doing so. Please stay on topic.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Agreed but this is for those who do not reject later.

Paul argues that if God is saving a person, that person will not reject later. Otherwise, that person's hope does disappoint.

It's as if Paul is giving us a list of conditions whereby one can know who will never fall away. We can summarize Romans 5:1-5 this way.

• Justified by faith
• hope in the glory of God
• tribulations and tests of faith
• perseverance under testing
• proven character
• hope
• the Holy Spirit given to us.

If these conditions above exist in an individual, that individual will never fall away.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What's being spoken against are "Religious Leaders" on a pulpit, that says once saved always saved, just pray this prayer and you are saved... that is all that is being spoken again. Assurance is assured to those who make the choice daily, to seek out God.

Jesus himself talks about how in the Parable of the sower, how priorities get mixed up, and some fall away.

Therefore it is a day to day choice, people can start to have the spirit of unbelief creep in if they are not careful.

I agree with your view that our walk is a daily choice. Even so, for sinners like me, the exhortation to "make the choice daily" doesn't give me much confidence that I won't fail. As you point out. some will fall away.

Assurance isn't based on my daily choice but on something significantly more reliable and profound. I mentioned Romans 5:1-5 to Wrangler, wherein Paul exalts in the glory of God. In that passage, Paul lists a set of conditions found in those who will never fall away.

• Justified by faith
• hope in the glory of God
• tribulations and tests of faith
• perseverance under testing
• proven character
• hope
• the Holy Spirit given to us.

If these conditions are present in a person, then that person will always make the choice to remain and never fall away.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Soul sleep. Yes, OK.
What I'm asking is do you believe we are in God's salvific grace while we live?

I never mentioned soul sleep. I do believe that we are under God's salvific grace during our lifetime. I hold onto the belief that we are constantly "being saved" as we follow Jesus Christ, which shows God's ongoing effort to save us.

Earlier, I assumed an accurate definition of salvation that answers the question, "Saved from what?" Each of us needs to be rescued from three distinct dangers.

• As sinners, we stand guilty and condemned to death.
• As sinners, we must deal with the certainty of sin.
• As sinners, we must acknowledge all the evil we leave in our wake.

A person isn't saved in actuality until all three of those conditions are resolved. Now, those in Jesus Christ live hoping to be saved from those conditions; (Romans 8:24) then, those in Jesus Christ will attain the salvation they hope for. 1 Corinthians 15:50

 

[CadyandZoe]

When it comes to "God Electing People" That almost always deals with Jesus and his apostles.... and those people at the time (you read in the opening letters of people being elect at that time). Claiming as though you are one of the 'elect' That is a big lie @CadyandZoe. People misuse scripture .. and even scripture can puff up individuals to be prideful. There is also a lot of conditions - when it comes down to Jesus coming back - whom were also elected at that time, Just read revelation 2 and 3.



Therefore a lot of the stuff people conjure up is just junk...


"Oh God elected me, and I didn't have no choice "- ya ya - well do they meet the conditions of the time?

Maybe some do... idk, but I don't believe anyone is "elected today", people are called, and they respond they believe, or they dont, that is all there is too really simple. People can disagree - it doesn't matter but truth will win out and that is something to rejoice in. If you read John 14-15, you see that jesus says "you didn't choose me I chose you", but he is talking to his disciples at that time, and that can be misused to say... "Jesus chose me, I didn't choose Jesus" - while it's humble stance it doesn't make the context true for them today.


One more thing "If you are elect and other people arent - brother, sister, cousin that was not elect, is damned to for hell forever.. sorry sis, bro, cuz."


Think about it... don't just believe what people come up with as far as doctrine and be encouraged to read the bible, and really consider the context.

Matthew,
Just because people misuse a term doesn't mean it isn't Biblical. The Bible teaches that God chooses individuals for salvation. The question is whether God chose me and how can I know?

BTW, I don't conjure. :) The statements I make are sometimes too short and too abbreviated for a paper on the subject, but here in a discussion forum, my time and space are limited. :) Earlier, when I talked about God's "elect" I was thinking of Romans 8, where Paul uses the term to make reference to those whom God has chosen to save. In this instance, I want to quote a long passage for our review.

Romans 8:31-39

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Just as it is written,​

​

“For Your sake we are being put to death all day long;
We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”​

​

But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

The topic of discussion here is Paul's perspective on those whom God has "justified." He refers to them as "God's elect." God is the one who justifies, who is the one who condemns? The implied answer is, "no one that matters." According to Paul, certain people are singled out and chosen for salvation, and if such a person has been chosen by God for salvation, then certain situations and conditions follow from that. For instance, although the elect will suffer persecution, famine, nakedness and all the rest, the elect will "overwhelmingly conquer through him who loved us."

You are correct in your observation that one should not assume that one is "elect." In a congregation of Christians, one may find only a handful of people whom God is actually saving. As we know, not all those who name the name of Christ are actually one of his. But neither one of us can know for sure whether another person has been selected for salvation. Only God can tell us apart at a glance.

 

[Wrangler]

Paul argues that if God is saving a person, (THEN) that person will not reject later.

That's the rub. What verse says that?

 

[GeneZ]

Again Eternal Security and OSAS are two different things.

No they are not. You must set up that premise to establish your argument. But, you are wrong.

 

[BlessedPeace]

I never mentioned soul sleep. I do believe that we are under God's salvific grace during our lifetime. I hold onto the belief that we are constantly "being saved" as we follow Jesus Christ, which shows God's ongoing effort to save us.

Earlier, I assumed an accurate definition of salvation that answers the question, "Saved from what?" Each of us needs to be rescued from three distinct dangers.

• As sinners, we stand guilty and condemned to death.
• As sinners, we must deal with the certainty of sin.
• As sinners, we must acknowledge all the evil we leave in our wake.

A person isn't saved in actuality until all three of those conditions are resolved. Now, those in Jesus Christ live hoping to be saved from those conditions; (Romans 8:24) then, those in Jesus Christ will attain the salvation they hope for. 1 Corinthians 15:50

Thank you.

 

[BlessedPeace]

It has been conjectured that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and there are places in the Gospels that show this. However the New Testament was Originally written in Koine Greek as preserved in the manuscript evidence that has come down to us

Some of the early Church Fathers also said that Jesus used Aramaic and Matthew and John were supposed to have been written in it. Again this is conjecture

Thank you.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That's the rub. What verse says that?

Romans 5:1-5. Paul lists 5 conditions that, if met by God, guarantee that hope will not disappoint.

 

[Grailhunter]

No they are not. You must set up that premise to establish your argument. But, you are wrong.

I am Absolutely right!

Posts 77,90,93, and 100

OSAS is not biblical, it is not historical, it is new age and leftist.

 

[GeneZ]

I am Absolutely right!

Posts 77,90,93, and 100

OSAS is not biblical, it is not historical, it is new age and leftist.

But what about posts 55, 88, 89, and 91?

You are absolutely wrong!

 

[Grailhunter]

But what about posts 55, 88, 89, and 91?

You are absolutely wrong!

You are wrong.

What sin is driving this for you?
OSAS people do not fit in with real Christians.
For that reason I don't see too many of them in church.
They are not going to hang with real Christians.
And I think mostly it is because real Christians are going to know that they have a lifestyle sin that they want and still call themselves Christians and believe they are going to Heaven. And the reason they do not go to church is because they want to conceal what they do because they know that real Christians would tell them it is wrong and would not want to have anything to do with them….they would be shunned and people would not let their kids play with their kids….things like that.
Most of the time its things like pot or other drugs or homosexuality or sexual promiscuity and they want these things and still call themselves Christians.

 

[GeneZ]

You are wrong.

What sin is driving this for you?
OSAS people do not fit in with real Christians.

Why do you seem to hate God thoroughly saving His own?
Why do you seem to hate God being absolute competence?

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. ​

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. ​

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, ​

but raise them up at the last day." John 6:37-39​

To say God will lose even just one who believed in Him?

Would like be saying that the Son failed to do the Father's will.

For, it says its the Father's will that the Son lose none.

I have news for you.

You can deny all you want.
The Truth remains standing.

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. ​

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. ​

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, ​

but raise them up at the last day." ​

grace and peace ............

 

[GeneZ]

Most of the time its things like pot or other drugs or homosexuality or sexual promiscuity and they want these things and still call themselves Christians.

They most likely can't. But, God will if they believed in Jesus Christ.

 

[Grailhunter]

Why do you seem to hate God thoroughly saving His own?
Why do you seem to hate God being absolute competence?

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. ​

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. ​

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, ​

but raise them up at the last day." John 6:37-39​

To say God will lose even just one who believed in Him?

Would like be saying that the Son failed to do the Father's will.

For, it says its the Father's will that the Son lose none.

I have news for you.

You can deny all you want.
The Truth remains standing.

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. ​

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. ​

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, ​

but raise them up at the last day." ​

grace and peace ............

He is not going to lose you but He may judge you to Hell.
Once a Christian always a Christian but you might be a Christian in Hell.