Who Really Are The 144,000?

[Randy Kluth]

Replacement Theology is not a phrase that is in the Bible. It is a phrase conjured up by those opposed to the truth of God's very own words concerning the Church and Israel, and it's meant to obfuscate the "real" issue. God is talking about YOU who falsely accused us of "antisemitic" or "replacement theology."

The term "Replacement Theology" is a term used for practical purposes to distinguish between Amillennialists who see the removal of national distinctions in God's program from Premillennialists who see God's specific promises to national Israel as ongoing in the NT era. Replacement Theology removes Israel's distinction as a nation so that promises that were once applied to national Israel are now applied only to Christians in any nation.

Some people, out of anger, may apply the RT label to accuse adherents of antisemitism. But that certainly is not loaded necessarily into the meaning of the term.

God clearly said:

Hebrews 8:9-10

• "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
• For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"

The New Covenant with Israel. What Israel? It is NOT with a physical Nation, but with a spiritual people whom God has put His laws into their mind and written them in their hearts. It never was an everlasting Covenant with a physical nation (nor could it be), and so your false accusation of replacement of a nation is null and void. The nation only outwardly "represented" God's people, and clearly, according to God's word, that was subject to conditions. Far from being blessed people, God has pronounced judgment upon the Nation of Israel.

The promise from Jer 31 did not change the definition of "Israel" from a physical people to a non-physical, spiritual people. On the contrary, the clear meaning of this, in context, is that Israel, having lost their spirituality, will have their spirituality restored. This will require God's judgment under terms of a new covenant that will distinguish between those who follow it and those who don't.

Matthew 21:42-43

• "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

The fall of Israel was intended by God to be a model for Christian nations, to watch out for the natural tendency to fall away. When Israel fell, their calling was then made available to people Israel viewed as pagan.

There is no "birthright" to national salvation. There must be genuine repentance. But if pagan nations can pick up where Israel failed, then Israel may repent of their own "paganism" and be restored to their calling. This is the teaching of Rom 11.

Keeping national distinctions under the New Covenant is essential if God is going to be true to His word to Abraham, who was promised a descendant nation, as well as many nations who share his faith. Having national distinctions does not show prejudice. On the contrary, it shows identity. If a nation is to be restored from failure, the nation that failed must 1st be identified as the recipient of grace.

"Israel" never stopped being "Israel." The NT Bible does not call for a re-definition of 'Israel." Rather, it identified Israel as a failure at various points of time, and promised that one day the Messiah would bring grace to that nation under Christian terms.

The Amillennial belief that Israel would never be saved came from the recognition that Israel was never going to be saved as a nation as they were. Somehow the Christian standard would have to be applied to the nation, and that obviously wasn't happening.

But God has divine patience, and has determined that Israel, as a nation, must go through an entire age of failure instead of consigning the nation to instant and final judgment. This has allowed for a generous amount of grace to be extended, in history, to all nations, without bringing them into immediate and final judgment, as well.

And if grace is available to bring the nations to Christian salvation, then one day final judgment will come to Israel, and a Christian minority will become judges over a standard of living in Israel that will allow for Israel's national restoration, and preserve her forever.

The failure of nations does not remove who they are. It simply requires of them true repentance in order to be restored as a nation of God.

Saving nations is not a matter of marking every individual in a nation as evangelically saved. Rather, it is a matter of saving the identity of the nation, of saving a nation from extermination, so that when enough Christians reside there the nation can be brought to a standard of living that God accepts.

For example, the US, once a Christian nation, is falling fast. It is in danger of destruction. Russia is threatening a nuclear war as we speak. But what will save the nation as a physical identifiable nation? The only thing that can save America is a strong Christian remnant who before God will become judges over what will make the nation worth saving. And in the day of judgment nations will be saved on this basis--not by exterminating their identity.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The term "Replacement Theology" is a term used for practical purposes to distinguish between Amillennialists who see the removal of national distinctions in God's program from Premillennialists who see God's specific promises to national Israel as ongoing in the NT era. Replacement Theology removes Israel's distinction as a nation so that promises that were once applied to national Israel are now applied only to Christians in any nation.

Some people, out of anger, may apply the RT label to accuse adherents of antisemitism. But that certainly is not loaded necessarily into the meaning of the term.

The promise from Jer 31 did not change the definition of "Israel" from a physical people to a non-physical, spiritual people. On the contrary, the clear meaning of this, in context, is that Israel, having lost their spirituality, will have their spirituality restored. This will require God's judgment under terms of a new covenant that will distinguish between those who follow it and those who don't.

The fall of Israel was intended by God to be a model for Christian nations, to watch out for the natural tendency to fall away. When Israel fell, their calling was then made available to people Israel viewed as pagan.

There is no "birthright" to national salvation. There must be genuine repentance. But if pagan nations can pick up where Israel failed, then Israel may repent of their own "paganism" and be restored to their calling. This is the teaching of Rom 11.

Keeping national distinctions under the New Covenant is essential if God is going to be true to His word to Abraham, who was promised a descendant nation, as well as many nations who share his faith. Having national distinctions does not show prejudice. On the contrary, it shows identity. If a nation is to be restored from failure, the nation that failed must 1st be identified as the recipient of grace.

"Israel" never stopped being "Israel." The NT Bible does not call for a re-definition of 'Israel." Rather, it identified Israel as a failure at various points of time, and promised that one day the Messiah would bring grace to that nation under Christian terms.

The Amillennial belief that Israel would never be saved came from the recognition that Israel was never going to be saved as a nation as they were. Somehow the Christian standard would have to be applied to the nation, and that obviously wasn't happening.

But God has divine patience, and has determined that Israel, as a nation, must go through an entire age of failure instead of consigning the nation to instant and final judgment. This has allowed for a generous amount of grace to be extended, in history, to all nations, without bringing them into immediate and final judgment, as well.

And if grace is available to bring the nations to Christian salvation, then one day final judgment will come to Israel, and a Christian minority will become judges over a standard of living in Israel that will allow for Israel's national restoration, and preserve her forever.

The failure of nations does not remove who they are. It simply requires of them true repentance in order to be restored as a nation of God.

Saving nations is not a matter of marking every individual in a nation as evangelically saved. Rather, it is a matter of saving the identity of the nation, of saving a nation from extermination, so that when enough Christians reside there the nation can be brought to a standard of living that God accepts.

For example, the US, once a Christian nation, is falling fast. It is in danger of destruction. Russia is threatening a nuclear war as we speak. But what will save the nation as a physical identifiable nation? The only thing that can save America is a strong Christian remnant who before God will become judges over what will make the nation worth saving. And in the day of judgment nations will be saved on this basis--not by exterminating their identity.

actually the framing of the Jew in Gods purposes, is based on covenant.
They are in fact Gods covenant people and that is why he is not done with them as a people.
They come back to him through Jesus and are gathered as a remnant. 144k being first fruits.
The GT is God turning his attention to Jacob/Israel as it says in rom 11 the time of the gentile is complete.

If you get "Purpose" wrong, the harmony of the word is never realized.
A ton of spiritual revelation is in the first miracle of Jesus, as well as the OT examples of the wayward wife.
As well as the second born getting the blessing, and in the book of ruth, the gentile together with the Jew, and yet eternally canonized as separate.

 

[Randy Kluth]

actually the framing of the Jew in Gods purposes, is based on covenant.
They are in fact Gods covenant people and that is why he is not done with them as a people.
They come back to him through Jesus and are gathered as a remnant. 144k being first fruits.
The GT is God turning his attention to Jacob/Israel as it says in rom 11 the time of the gentile is complete.

I don't know why you're telling me this? Can't you see that I was saying this, in essence, myself? I'm not a Replacement Theologian, and I'm not a Dispensationalist either. But I do believe in Premillennialism, as well as in the ultimate salvation of National Israel.

The Great Tribulation is actually something that started in 70 AD, according to Jesus in Luke 21. And yes, this age-long process will lead to Israel's judgment and ultimate restoration as a nation under God. The Christian remnant among the Jews will determine the Christian future and salvation of the nation.

If you get "Purpose" wrong, the harmony of the word is never realized.
A ton of spiritual revelation is in the first miracle of Jesus, as well as the OT examples of the wayward wife.
As well as the second born getting the blessing, and in the book of ruth, the gentile together with the Jew, and yet eternally canonized as separate.

I don't think I got the "purpose" wrong, if that's your insinuation? If so, what did I say that was wrong?

 

[Davy]

Romans 11 blows your entire theory out of the water.
You and all the replacement extra biblical adherents.

No such thing as Replacement Theology. That is a doctrine that the leaven of men came up with.

The Gospel was sent to the "house of Israel" (ten lost tribes) like Lord Jesus said. Just so happens, the majority of them were scattered among the Gentiles, so the Gentiles received The Gospel too at the same time. That is why Apostle Paul in Romans 9 quoted from the Book of Hosea to Roman Gentile believers, when God gave the Book of Hosea prophecies specifically to the ten tribe "house of Israel".

 

[TribulationSigns]

like i said, rom 11 destroys your theory.

LIKE I SAID, prove it. You have not explained how the verses within Romans 11 destroy my position. Come on!

The bible does that regularly.

Huh?

That is why you skipped rom 11 in your response to my expose of your error.

I did not skip. It is because you have not yet explain what verses in Romans 11 you believe have destroyed my position. I am waiting.

You skipped tge verses that expose your error.
SMH

What verses? Show it to us. All you do is nothing but spew hot air.

Why don't the replacement doctrine people quote rom 11?

Where in Romans 11? Explain yourself.

Both Romans AND REVELATION designate the 144k AS JEWS.

Oh? Show us the verses exactly saying this.

Interesting the replacement doctrine errs on such basic facts.

(yawning).

144k definitely, unmistakenly Jews. A solid fact

Based on what Scripture. Chapter and verse, please.

144k firstfruits , which is a small portion of a whole.

Based on what Scripture, Chapter, and verse, please.

Two facts that are contested in a poorly thought out theory

You have not proven anything yet. Do you know how to quote verses?

It is as if you were comissioned to shoot the barn. So you walked up to it with your double barrel shotgun, and got two feet away ,emptied both barrels, and missed.

Humm... and your point is? What are you talking about?!

 

[Davy]

yep
So basic
There are reasons why the replacement doctrine adherents modify the bible.

You don't have a clue of what you're talking about.

The proof is how I well know you have NOT studied all your Bible to even throw out that Jew's false Replacement Theology idea.

It is YOU that is modifying The Bible, since you are totally unaware of God's prophecies to the ten tribe "house of Israel". Thus you blabber against something you haven't even bothered to study and don't know.

 

[Davy]

Why don't the replacement doctrine people quote rom 11?
Both Romans AND REVELATION designate the 144k AS JEWS.
Interesting the replacement doctrine errs on such basic facts.
144k definitely, unmistakenly Jews. A solid fact
144k firstfruits , which is a small portion of a whole.
Two facts that are contested in a poorly thought out theory

It is as if you were comissioned to shoot the barn. So you walked up to it with your double barrel shotgun, and got two feet away ,emptied both barrels, and missed.
Really?
A doctrine did that to you?????

Once again, there is NO SUCH THING AS REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY. And that's why YOU keep repeating it here, in the hopes that the deceived will listen to and believe your falseness.

NO, Revelation DOES NOT DESIGNATE the 144,000 as all JEWS.

You would know that IF you had actually studied your Bible instead of trying to create political religious stances that don't exist.

ONLY the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi represent the JEWS, and that still today (1 Kings 11 forward). The rest of the ten tribes were removed and taken captive to Assyria while the JEWS in Judea-Jerusalem (southern lands) remained, and went captive about 120 years later to Babylon.

 

[Davy]

Don't blame your modification of Rom 11 and the book of rev on the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is NOT BEHIND your blatant restructuring of the bible.
144k Are, for a fact , Jews
144k are first fruits..a simple fact.
Your misplacement of verses is not in any way "spiritually discerned"
That is ridiculous my friend.

Only 3 Tribes out of the 144,000 represent the JEWS (Judah, Benjamin, and Levi).

The remaining 10 tribes were scattered among the Gentiles and LOST. And they were not known as JEWS anyway before their captivity, even as the JEWISH historian Josephus (100 A.D.) documented.

 

[Davy]

the bible explains how The Jews come in last after the gentiles.
And that re-grafting is through Jesus.
Truly impossible to miss.

Only a small REMNANT of the JEWS of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi have converted to Jesus Christ.

Still TO THIS DAY, the MAJORITY of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, the JEWS, still REJECT Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah. And that especially applies to the JEWS in the nation state of Israel today.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Don't blame your modification of Rom 11 and the book of rev on the Holy Spirit.

?? You do not make any sense here.

The Holy Spirit is NOT BEHIND your blatant restructuring of the bible.

Could it be because you are one with nature that cannot understand spiritual things, 1CO 2:13-14? Humm!

144k Are, for a fact , Jews

According to what Scripture.

144k are first fruits..a simple fact.

So? Do you even study the firstfruits throughout Scripture? All believers in Christ are the firstfruits (salvation). It is not for the ethic Jews only.

1Co15:20
"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."

Rom 8:23
(23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

2Th 2:13-14
(13) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
(14) Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:3-4
(3) And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
(4) These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Your misplacement of verses is not in any way "spiritually discerned"

Says a natural man. Its a foolish to him.

That is ridiculous my friend.

The Lord judges and I am comfortable with that!

 

[Davy]

The Jew is the "wife gone awhoring"
The gentile church is the bride.

The above is a FALSE DOCTRINE from the leaven of men. It is pointing to a false teaching by the false Pre-trib Rapture school which tries to keep the Jews separate from Christ's Church because of Darby's false dispensationalist theories.

ALL... the children of Israel, all 12 tribes, historically fell in idol worship against God. That is why God kept His promise of Deut.4 and 28 that He would scatter them among the Gentiles for doing so. Bet you haven't even read that.

Only the JEWS of the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi went captive to Babylon for 70 years per God's Word. And ONLY a VERY SMALL REMNANT of just those 3 tribes returned to Jerusalem after that captivity (Ezra 1 & 2). NONE of the 10 tribes are mentioned returning with them, for they were still scattered among the Gentiles.

Then the MAJORITY of the JEWS, the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi chose to STAY in Babylon after their 70 years captivity! because God took good care of them there! And then... they were further SCATTERED among the Gentiles just like the TEN TRIBES were!

And you don't even know that Bible history, but would rather run your mouth like you know, when you do not!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Rom 11
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Finally, you quoted verses in Romans 11. Congratulations! But you still MISUNDERSTOOD what God talked about.
I will respond to each verse you quoted separately as permitted due to limited space. I will start with Romans 11:24 here:

Rom 11:24​

(24) For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?​

Here God is illustrating how we (Gentiles) were aliens or foreigners from Israel, who didn't know of the true God or have the blessings afforded the children of Israel. We weren't raised up under the law of Moses or privileged to the Lord's Covenant with Israel, we were adversarial to God's laws and precepts. We were as a wild or confused tree instead of a tree under guidance of God. And yet God made a way to graft us (contrary to our wild nature), into the Covenant with Israel. We weren't the Children of God, but because of the kindness and mercy of God, we have been made sons of God.

Mat 15:24-27​

(24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.​

(25) Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.​

(26) But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.​

(27) And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.​

The Gentiles were pictured as the heathen dogs that ate the crumbs that fell from their master's table, and yet God in his sovereign mercy, saw fit to make of two, one family. And now these are all fellow heirs, brothers and sisters in one family in Christ. Not second-class citizens as the idea of some is, but fellow citizens in the commonwealth of Israel.
Here is the analogy is made of an Olive tree versus a wild olive tree you need to understand first. Picture a wild Olive tree growing in the world, without care, without anyone to water it on days when there is heat, or to cultivate it when needed. Now picture an Olive tree that is cared for, watered regularly, and cultivated. This Olive tree will be very fruitful. In this way, God had cared for Israel, watering and cultivating her. She was the favored planting of the Lord. Shall we then boast against the natural branches because of God's benevolence towards us? That would be foolish, because we were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to our natural hostile unfruitful relationship to God, into the family of God. So the conclusion is, how much more should we think that God can graft the natural or original branches into their own natural tree, if we should fall into unbelief as they did? Again, God is reiterating that Jews can and are grafted back in, "IF" they do not remain in unbelief.

The overview of verse twenty-four is the illustration that we must be humble and realize that it is because of God alone that we are grafted in, and not because of anything of ourselves. Likewise, the Jews can, are being grafted back in if they do not remain in unbelief. They were cast out as a nation representing the Kingdom, but not as a people. The judgment was on the nation Israel that the riches of the rest of the world could come in along with the election. In other words, as was declared earlier (verse 12), "Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?" It is an exhortation that the Gentiles not be conceited, for this same vanity caused the Jews to be broken off in their unbelief. And by it, the riches of salvation were spread to the Gentile world. If not, and if they remained without diminishing, the Gentiles would have remained in spiritual poverty. That was not God's plan.

Explanation of Verse 25 on the next post.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Rom 11:25​

(25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.​

This has become one of the most controversial verses of scriptures, which many theologians either misunderstand, misinterpret, or simply choose to believe that it declares something that it simply does not declare.

Israel, in part, is blinded. The question is, what Israel is this? Well, we have to remember that Paul is talking to the Romans (Gentiles), saying that they have no reason to boast, and declaring that part of Israel (the election) obtained the promises, and the rest were blinded. So clearly we see that the Israel in part that were blinded, are the majority of Israel. And just as clearly we see that there is an Israel that obtained the promises, which God calls the election, or the Chosen. Both God calls Israel. One may ask, how can that be? It can be because they all were collectively the olive tree Israel, or corporate covenant Israel. For the Jewish people in part who rejected Christ, judgment has come upon them for the hardness of their heart, as they are pictured as branches broken off or blinded. That is the reason that Paul was sorrowful when he was explaining that, "all are not Israel who are of Israel." And note he is also referencing two Israelis' there. He spoke in Romans 9:6 of Israel, the corporate entity. And He spoke of the Israel within "that" Israel, which he declares is the only "real" Israel of God. By saying they are "not" all Israel, which are of Israel, God makes it perfectly clear that there are two Israelis. And only one of them is the Israel of God. The one who "are" the Israel of God is the remnant within that Israel that are not blinded. They are the election which have obtained the promises.

The meat of the controversy comes in the phrase, "Blindness in part has happened unto Israel till the fullness of the Gentiles be come in." Many people are confused as to what this declaration really means? But it is simply building upon what Paul has just stated. He said he doesn't want them to be ignorant of "the mystery" which is that the Gentiles are to be part of this very same "One Body," which is Covenant Israel. He has spoken of the revelation of the mystery that has always been God's plan. Jew and Gentile alike as one people together as one family of God.

Eph 1:9-10​

(9) Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:​

(10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:​

In the fullness of time, it was revealed that the Gentiles would also be a part of Covenant Israel. That is the mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world, but is now revealed. Salvation to the Jew first, and then salvation to the Gentiles. There is no special dispensation of time for a third salvation for Jewish people after the Gentiles. It is the Jew first, and then the Gentiles. Thus all have the same opportunity to be Children of God. God has revealed the mystery that has been hid from other ages, and Paul doesn't want the Romans to be ignorant or unknowledgeable about this mystery. Gentiles are the fellow heirs with the Jews, not a body apart from the Jews. This is the same mystery Paul wrote to the Ephesians about:

Eph 3:3-6​

(3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,​

(4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)​

(5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;​

(6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:​

Not a different body, not a different family, not a different congregation, nor a separate inheritance apart from the Jews, but the Gentiles are fellow heirs of the same body, and partakers of the "same" promises to their fathers, and enjoying the same fatness of the Covenant Olive tree. They are being grafted into this same Covenant Israel. History shows Salvation went to the Jews first, but because of unbelief, the Jew is blinded. And that blindness will last until the Gentiles coming in to their full state. For example, there are no more Gentiles coming in AFTER their "fullness," and this rules out any alleged program of evangelization of the Gentiles by the Jews after their blindness is supposed to be lifted. their corporate blindness will remain until there is not one other Gentile left to be saved. Until the fullness of the Gentiles have come in. This does not mean that there would be a conversion of the majority of the Jewish nation sometime after this fullness of the Gentile, rather it illustrates their blindness or hardness of heart would last until no more Gentiles are being saved.

The overview of verse twenty-five is that God doesn't want us to be ignorant of this mystery concerning the Gentiles that they would have a high opinion of themselves because they were grafted in, and the majority of the Jews were cut off from the tree because of unbelief. Because in man's ignorance, he will often become wise in his own conceits and formulate doctrines which are biased and contrary to what God's Word declares about there being no distinction between Jewish children of covenant Israel and Gentile children of covenant Israel (Romans 16:25; Colossians 1:26-27; 1st Corinthians 15:51; Mark 4:11; Ephesians 1:9, 3:3). They are one tree and one body, and no ignorance can change that truth that was once kept a mystery before. They are not better just because (except for the election) a spiritual blindness has come upon the Jewish nation at the Cross. We are told that this blindness will last UNTIL the totality or fullness of the Gentiles have come into Covenant Israel, symbolized by this tree. It will last until there is not another Gentile branch to be grafted in. Those who look for Jews in Israel to bear fruit (salvation) in the future concerning Christ are looking in vain (Matthew 21:9)!

Verse 26 on the next post...

 

[TribulationSigns]

Rom 11:26​

(26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:​

This blindness in part, or harness of Israel's heart will continue throughout the New Covenant period until the fullness of the Gentiles are come in. And we read here, "..and so (in this way) all Israel shall be saved as it is written," by the Deliverer out of Zion that shall turn away ungodliness from them.

Some Theologians attempt to rewrite verse 26 to make it read, "after all the Gentiles come in, Then all the nation of Israel is going to be Saved." But even on the face of it, that makes absolutely no sense. All Israel will never be saved, if that 'all' means the literal nation as some have alleged. That is totally against everything scripture declares. There is only going to be a remnant of Jacob saved, as has already been stated in the scriptures. It doesn't say most of Israel, it doesn't say the majority of Israel, it says "so all Israel shall be saved."

The second point is that some theologians who realize that it certainly cannot really mean all and be referring literally to the nation Israel, claim that it doesn't really mean literally "all Israel shall be Saved." And these are inevitably those who insist that they take the scriptures very literally. They interpret this to only mean that most of the nation Israel shall be saved. Curiously, they want this literally to refer to the nation Israel, but they don't want it literally mean all Israel. Moreover, this only drives them deeper into confusion and rationalization, because it clearly says when the fullness of the Gentiles have come in, so all Israel shall be saved. If that all means just a remnant, then what is the need for this future salvation program? For Paul has stated earlier in this chapter that a remnant of Jews are even now coming in. And if the 'all' here does not mean a remnant, but the whole nation, then it is a deviation from the immutability of God in what He has said, and what has always been. It's an aberration, since the whole nation of Israel has never been saved. The scriptures are not subject to arbitrary or capricious private interpretations. While it is very true that the word "all" is often qualified in scripture to mean "many," there is nothing in the context of this chapter or verse to validate the view that it refers to most of the physical nation of Israel. For Gentiles are not grafted into a physical or literal middle eastern nation of Israel. They are grafted into the Covenant with Israel and remain in their own nations.

The third point is, though many Theologians often take license to declare that it says "and then" all Israel "will" be saved, it doesn't really say that at all. Speaking of Israel it says part of it is blinded until the fullness of Gentiles come in (to Israel), and so all Israel shall be Saved. This is another very important distinction that is often merely glossed over by those who do not want to accept what is written here. In other words, the context of these scriptures show it is saying that this is how all Israel shall be saved. It will be by some Jewish branches being broken off, and some Gentile grafted being ingrafted in. And when the fullness of these Gentiles are come in, "so" all Israel shall be saved. The all Israel is all of these who finally end up in this Covenant tree, Israel. The Jew first, and then the Gentiles, both in one tree, and both of that very same body.

If God had wanted to use the word 'then' (meaning afterward) there, He would most certainly have inspired it to be used there. There is a perfectly good Greek word that is translated 'then' [epeita], but God does not inspire that word to be used here. The word here is the Greek word [houtos], an adverb, meaning 'the manner' in which they shall be saved. By all means, get a Greek lexicon and check this out yourself. So means "thusly" or "in this manner/fashion/wise." This word does not illustrate a future tense time frame at all, it is simply showing the manner in which Israel is saved. This word [houtos] doesn't mean 'then' and is never translated then. And so it is obviously incorrect to read this verse 'as if' it means then, or 'as if' it means after the Gentiles come in. Here are just a few examples of this word's use to demonstrate its unambiguous meaning.

Romans 9:20

• "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? "

Hebrews 6:9

• "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak."

Hebrews 10:33

• "Partly, whilst ye were made a gazing stock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used."

Those words translated "thus" and "so" is this exact same Greek word [houtos] and means, 'in this fashion,' or 'in this way.' It is tortuous of scripture to claim in Romans chapter 11 the word translated So, means then, or that it means after the Gentiles come in, all Israel will be saved. It means exactly what it says there. When the fullness of Gentiles be come in, so (or thusly) shall all Israel will be Saved. i.e., in this way or manner shall all Israel be saved. Not 'then' Israel shall be saved, as a legion of theologians might have you believe. That indeed would be Biblically backward, as God says the Jew first, and also (additionally) the Gentiles. God doesn't say, "the Jew first, the Gentile, and then the Jew again! And the phrase following His statement of Romans 11, confirms these truths. God added: "..as it is written," the Deliverer shall come out of Sion. It would then be incumbent upon any Christian practicing sound hermeneutics to search out just where is it written that the Deliverer shall come out of Zion, and therein discover just what this is referring to. When we do this, we learn that it is the prophecy of Christ's first advent, not a second. It's not of a future event saying the Deliverer shall out of Zion (future), it's declaring, "As it was written" the deliver shall come out of Zion. A big difference there. In other words, it's directing us to scripture where it is written that the deliverer shall come out of Zion. It's not making another separate prophecy, rather it's pointing to (referencing) one already made. The salvation of Israel was prophesied to come by the Deliverer Christ, who came out of Zion. And thusly, or this is how all Israel shall be saved. By Him reconciling all nations into one body, the Jew first, and then the Gentiles. That is how all ungodliness would be taken away from Jacob. Even as was illustrated in the first chapter of this book.

Contiune of explanation of verse 26 is in the next post...

 

[TribulationSigns]

Romans 1:16-18

• "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
• For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
• For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;"

But when people start adding their own personal opinions and private interpretations, and extra words implying a future coming of some deliverer to Israel (as if that were possible), they distort what God really says, and it changes the whole prophecy 'as if' Christ didn't already redeem Israel, take away all ungodliness from Jacob, and was the Deliverer out of Zion. Are we to seriously think that the Deliverer Christ is coming again out of Zion to go to the cross a second time to deliver Israel? No, we all know that this would be confusion. Yet that is what people imply the verse means when they read it with their preconceived notions of a future redemption of Jacob. The truth is, there is no future coming of Christ out of Zion to deliver Israel. Christ 'already' came out of Zion to deliver Israel, and He did! When scripture says, "..As it is written, there shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is My Covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins," this should convince "any" faithful Bible student that this is referring to the time of the cross, and not a future event. It's not rocket science, we simply ask ourselves, "when was Christ's New Covenant or Testament fulfilled, and when did the Deliverer come out of Zion, and when did He turn ungodliness away from Jacob, taking away all their sins?" There is no room for supposition, speculation and private interpretations, the only honest answer to this question is that it occurred at the time of the death and resurrection of Christ. Or do these theologians think Christ's death was insufficient and He is coming back for another try to saving Israel, bring peace and righteousness, and take away ungodliness from Jacob? These are all things that the scriptures tell us He has already done for Israel, "as it was written." This whole idea of a future restoration of national Israel, once examined, is without any firm foundation. It's built upon a footing of sand, and any house built upon it will certainly not stand. We compare scripture with scripture to come to the truth of every doctrine. And doing so we see where it is written in Isaiah chapter 59. Read Isaiah chapter 59:16-21 and as it goes on into the next chapter 60 where it talks about the light to the Gentiles. How can anyone think this is not referring to the first advent of Christ? This is what Romans 11 was referring to saying, "as it was written." And there is no question but that it was fulfilled at the time of Christ's first advent. Sin was taken away once, transgression was taken out of Jacob once by Christ shedding His blood, and the Deliverer came out of Zion to do this once, as it was written.

Isaiah 59:20-21

• "And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
• As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD;.."

Christ took away sin by His death and resurrection in the New Covenant. And that is what Isaiah had written about.

Romans 11:26

• "..as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
• For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

There is no question about it that Romans is referencing the prophecy that was written that 'the Redeemer SHALL come to Zion,' and 'This is My Covenant unto them.' Romans chapter eleven is not saying the deliverer shall come out of Zion (future) it's saying, it was written 'the Deliverer "shall" come out of Zion, and this is my Covenant with them.' Romans chapter 11 referencing these scriptures and telling us this is HOW all Israel shall be saved. By this process is symbolized by the Olive Tree. The deliverer did come to Zion and took away the sins of Israel (Jacob). It was done by His work on the cross. And this is God's Covenant or Testament with them when He took away their sins. The Gentiles come into this Covenant with Israel. It was all written and all prophesied long ago, because it is the mystery revealed to New Covenant Israel. And when the fullness of these Gentiles come in, thus, or so all Israel shall be Saved.

The overview of verse twenty-six is that blindness in part has happened to Israel. This also means that part of Israel is not blinded, and that remnant is still in this covenant tree. The Gentiles are also allowed in, and this blindness of Israel that allows this will last until the fullness of these Gentiles come in. And thus (So, or thusly) all Israel shall be Saved. The truth is, Christ is the New Covenant Saviour of all men, who grafts Gentiles in 'among the Jew.' This is the deliverer come to Zion of whom it was written He would take away their sins. Just as the rhetorical question Paul asked, "Has His Word become void?" NO, because Israel is defined by God, not men, and all Israel will be saved. But it will be all Israel as God defines the terms. It is peace and Mercy on the Israel of God, not the nation in the middle east.

Verse 27 next...

 

[TribulationSigns]

Rom 11:27​

(27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.​

The old Covenant with Israel is passed away, and we are living in the New Covenant period. We must ask ourselves honestly, how many Covenants did the Lord establish in prophecy that would take away the sins of Israel? The answer is, only one. And that is the New Covenant established in Christ's blood. Did Christ not already confirm the everlasting Covenant and take away all the sins of Israel?

Ezekiel 37:26-27

• "Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
• My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

God has already set His tabernacle among the people in Christ, and His covenant of peace was confirmed in His death and resurrection as is so plainly declared (Hebrews 9:17-18) in scripture. When Christ comes again, it will be to rapture the Church and judge the wicked. It should be clear when all things are considered that Romans is speaking about the prophesied New Covenant with Israel when He took away the sins of His chosen people. As we've already seen, the New Covenant with Israel "is" with God's chosen people, the congregation, both Jews and gentiles (see Jeremiah 31 in conjunction with Hebrews chapters 8-9). There is the Old Testament/Covenant, and there is the New Testament/Covenant with Israel. There is no third New Testament with Israel when Christ will come again to take away their sins. That clearly would be confusion.

Hebrews 8:12-13

• "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
• In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

The Old is over, the New is here, so how could this be talking about some other future Covenant? Jesus said, I am come but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Are we to think that Jesus was confused and He didn't come for those of Israel, or that He couldn't accomplish His task and didn't take away their sins? Acts chapter 13:23 tells us (speaking of David) '..of this man's seed hath God According To His Promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus.' Are we to reject that Word and believe that Christ didn't as yet come to do this, and He will come at a future date to take away the sins of Israel? God forbid! It's really foolishness to think such things, and yet intelligent people believe them without really giving these prophecies serious consideration. And note, it was "according to His promise to Israel." Do we not understand what the promise to Israel entailed, and did not Paul speak on this topic in the preceding verses? So how can anyone seriously believe that God hasn't fulfilled His promise to raise unto Israel a deliverer? In faithfulness we must forsake the words and traditions of men for the Word of God. You'll find that whenever there is a dispute about scripture, it is generally because someone wants to ignore certain pertinent verses in order that they may hold onto views that they have been taught. In a word, it's the attraction of "tradition." We must be careful not to fall into that same snare that Israel did in looking for earthly or carnal reigns and kingdoms. All scripture must be in agreement that it will harmonize with itself. In this synergy of scripture the truth of prophecy is revealed. It cannot be seen in picking and choosing select verses, but in reviewing and receiving all verses as authoritative that one does not make another null and void. There are no "dueling scriptures" that one war against each other, they all must harmonize. In the study of God's Word we trust it implicitly because we know that it will not lead us wrong if it is our authority. It is man who leads people in the wrong direction by rejecting the word of God in favor of the words of men. And man's word will inevitably lead Christians astray if they do not examine it "in light" of the whole Bible. The representation of the Kingdom is no longer the occupation of the nation of Israel as God's congregation. The New Covenant congregation now represents it. God is not a respecter of persons. Thus Israel shall be saved, but that Israel is not a middle eastern carnal Kingdom, rather it is a Spiritual Kingdom of Jews who are God's chosen people, and a glorious Spiritual nation.

1st Peter 2:9-10

• "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
• Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."

The New Covenant congregation is now the representation of those who are children of God. The Church is the holy nation, the peculiar or special people, the chosen people, Kings and Priests unto God. The Church, not a nation in the middle east, now represents those things. And it was done by the Covenant that took away the sins of Israel. There is no future salvation program for any nation in the Middle East. The time for becoming covenant children and to have sins taken away for all, is now! As indeed scripture has always been clear on this.

Luke 19:9-10

• "And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
• For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Rejection of Messiah by the Jewish people doesn't mean that the New Covenant was postponed, it only means they are blind to it having come. To declare to anyone of Jewish heritage this myth of a future salvation plan for that nation, is to play a cruel hoax upon them. This nefarious act is often looked upon as compassion and showing love of God, when really it is simply giving people a false sense of security. Love of God is in telling the truth that men may flee sin, not in smooth words that they will not recognize it. As Jesus said when He was anointed and began His blessed work, "Now is the acceptable year." The time for Jewish people to be grafted back into this tree is now, not after the tree is complete because it has become full with the Gentiles. Because when that occurs, then it is too late for inclusion. For thusly, all Israel will have been saved at that point. And not saved as men surmise, but "as it was written."
Some of those who recognize the inconsistency of the theory that all Israel (the nation) shall be saved, and so they will agree that God will only save a part or remnant from Israel. But they still hold to the idea that He will do this after the fullness of the Gentiles come in. But this theory will also not stand the test of scripture. Surely God will preserve a remnant from Israel, but if they read the whole chapter of Romans 11, in its context, they would see how God preserves a remnant of Israel. As we saw in verse 4, when speaking about this remnant God gives the example of the prophet Elias and How he thought there were no servants of God left but him. God says, no, I have preserved a remnant. And that analogy is used for Israel, "even at this present time." God by this showed He had not cast off His people, he has preserved for Himself a remnant. Not after the fullness of the Gentiles come in, but even at this present time. It is amazing that time and again God's Word tells us there is no difference, and the Jew and Gentile are of one body now. But people are not truly listening. The Old Testament prophecies of ruling Kingdoms, inheritance of lands, and the building of the Temple, were types, which looked forward to the coming King. With Christ's first advent as the antitype, these types were fulfilled. To go back to them "as if" they are yet to be fulfilled would be an abomination.

If God is saving a remnant from Israel right now, (and we all know that He is) then it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that after the fullness of Gentiles come in, God will save another remnant from Israel. It's redundant. The remnant from Israel is being saved right now along with the remnant of the Gentiles. So both theories fail on all counts. Both assuming that God means all the literal nation will be saved, or that God means that only a remnant will be saved after the Gentiles, does not agree with the rest of the Bible. Likewise, there are not two trees, two bodies, or two "New Covenants" to be administered at different times. So there cannot be a salvation program that separately saves separate bodies. It is inconsistent, and inconsistency is the mother of errors.

When the fullness of Gentiles come in, it will be too late for anyone coming into this Olive tree. For "so" all Israel will be saved, as it is written. Ultimately, Christ is the Israel of the promise. And anyone doubting that should read Isaiah chapter 49:1-3 of He who has a sword as His mouth and is named Israel. That is Christ. And except we are in Christ, we are not in the "Israel of God." Which is why Romans 9 said that "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." Because there is an external covenant Israel, and an eternal Covenant Israel.

Finally verse 28 next...

 

[TribulationSigns]

Rom 11:28
(28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

The unbelieving Jews are enemies of the gospel, and indeed of converted Jews and Gentiles. But as for the election of Israel, these are beloved for the promises made to the fathers. i.e., the promise to the fathers of deliverance would be kept in "this Election." This verse is contrasting the two Israels (Romans 9:6), which are unbelieving Israel (who are enemies of the Church), and election (who are beloved) of God.

There are those who object to "all Israel" in verse 26 pertaining to only the elect, because they surmise that then the elect in this verse would have to be regarded as enemies. They come to this conclusion because they either forget, or ignore the witness of the context, and of the whole Bible in general. God has already informed us that, "All Israel are not Israel." So then, when it says in the proceeding verses that "ALL ISRAEL shall be saved," it must refer only to the Israel of God who are elect. The election of Israel excludes those who are not elect of Israel. Even as the scriptures declared:

"..Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

The election of Israel have obtained that promise, and the rest of Israel were blinded, even as the imagery of the branches of the Olive tree signified.

And in truth, even the staunchest defender of the distinction of Israel will usually not claim that the term "all Israel" means every single person in Israel will be saved. Therefore, despite his protests, that shows that he does recognize that some of Israel are not included in this "all Israel" that shall be saved. Thus he is actually agreeing that it means only some of the nation of Israel shall be saved.

Moreover, when scripture declared, "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins," then by definition, and by any normal grammatical structure, this "all Israel" in view will then have their sins washed away.

1st John 3:5-6

• "And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
• Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."

This was the coming of Christ, when He took away Israel's sins. And so indeed, those of Israel who reject this Christ, they become enemies because of the gospel. While concerning those of Israel who are elect, they are beloved because of the promise to the fathers. All Israel is either for Christ, or they are against Him. There is no in between. We are seeing the external covenant Israel, and the election that are part of the eternal covenant Israel.

1. Concerning the gospel, the nation of Israel is blinded and are enemies for our sakes (the Gentiles). For they are at enmity with Christ, and that enmity was the occasion that brought salvation to the whole Gentiles.
2. Concerning the Election, these of Israel are beloved as the remnant whom God has brought through the fire and purged them from their sins, fulfilling the promise to their fathers.

Israel persecuted the Church because of the gospel message it brought. They are thus enemies for the Church's sake. Which Paul also confessed he did likewise before his conversion, when he was a blind Israelite.

1st Corinthians 15:9

• "For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."

But Paul was part of the election Israel, within external Israel. God is using him gloriously to bring about salvation to the Gentiles, and accomplish His purposes. His salvation as an Israelite is the fulfillment of the promises He made to the fathers. Israel, the beloved, is a type of Christ (Israel) the Beloved of God. He is the Son called out of Egypt, in whom the election would be beloved of God. It is in Christ that Israel becomes the beloved Holy City. You might want to do a study of the word "beloved" in scripture as it is used in this very interesting way. There is no riddle or mystery concerning this verse about Israel, how it is an enemy in one sense, and concerning the election beloved. The answer to this was stated right in verse seven.

Romans 11:5-8

• "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
• And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
• What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
• (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day."

Clearly, there are two diverse people within Israel. Israel the nation hasn't obtained it, but Israel the election has obtained it. The remnant is according to the election of Grace, not of race.

The overview of verse twenty-eight is that it is distinguishing between the diverse people of Israel. Concerning the election, they beloved of God for their father Abraham's sake. While the rest are blinded and left in unbelief, and because of the gospel enemies for the sake of the Gentiles. They were blinded that we might see. But concerning Israel the election, they are not blinded, they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. That is why Paul was sorrowful. Because most of his kinsmen according to the flesh were enemies of God, while he, being elect, was beloved. Thus he mourned for them. This verse contrasts Israel as an enemy of the gospel for the Gentile's sake, and yet the election of Israel beloved of God because of the promises, which cannot be made null and void.

There you go rebuilder. If you don't agree, then by all means show us the verses and EXPLAIN it just exactly as I did above.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The term "Replacement Theology" is a term used for practical purposes to distinguish between Amillennialists who see the removal of national distinctions in God's program from Premillennialists who see God's specific promises to national Israel as ongoing in the NT era. Replacement Theology removes Israel's distinction as a nation so that promises that were once applied to national Israel are now applied only to Christians in any nation.

Like I said, red herrings.

The replacement theology is not found in Scripture, therefore your practical claim on the term is false and wrong.

Ephesians 1:4

• "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

It was always meant to be Salvation to the world, and that all of "The Israel of God" would be saved by the fullness of the Gentiles coming in among the Jews, also becoming citizens of the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians 2:11-13). Thus God has always ordained a restoration of Israel from a global source. All the children of God chosen from before the foundation of the world, are the Israel of God who would be restored. You need to understand that Gentiles were not penciled in after Israel rejected Christ, they were predestinated from before the foundation of the world.

Matthew 8:10-12

• "When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
• And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
• But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Christ had always known the rejection of Israel at the Cross and the reconciliation of the world. The only "substitute" the Bible knows about is Christ (Israel), as He was the substitute for us as He stood in to suffer for our sins. It is by this suffering that Israel is restored. It is by His stripes Israel is healed. Healed and restored are synonymous in this sense.

This is the Restoration of Israel, and it is not Replacement Theology, as you falsely alleged. It is "Inclusion Theology." For example, the Gentiles, chosen of God, have been "included" in the Kingdom of Israel. The physical land of Israel was NOT in view, and all the Jewish people of Israel have NEVER been the true Israel (Romans 9:6). The true Israel of God has always been a spiritual people. A remnant then in the Old Testament, and a remnant now in the New Testament. The only difference is that now, a larger remnant of the Gentiles is also included on a worldwide scale. A larger portion of the Jews first, then a larger portion of the Gentiles last.

Selah!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Like I said, red herrings.

The replacement theology is not found in Scripture, therefore your practical claim on the term is false and wrong.

Well, that's about the silliest thing I've heard all day! Because something is not in the Scriptures, it is therefore not a real term and can't represent something honestly?

So if I mention microbiology, and it isn't in the Scriptures, it therefore isn't a real term, and can't represent real science? You see what I mean?

I'm just saying that Replacement Theology is a term used in the modern world to reflect a real position. You may not personally like the label, but for those who do use the label, it accurately represents just what I said--the belief that national distinctions are irrelevant in God's program of Salvation, and therefore the nation Israel cannot be salvaged from extinction.

How absurd is that? There are no national distinctions? That is obviously not true to life. There *are* national distinctions! There *is* an Israel!

Furthermore, nations can be saved from extinction. For example, France was saved from total absorption by Germany in WW2. And there were many such countries. Clearly, Israel can be saved.

Even more, the deliverance of the Jewish People from extinction makes the possibility that they convert to being a Christian country very possible. If it happened for the Roman Empire and for many European peoples, it can certainly happen for Israel. I'm not talking about every individual in the State becoming Christian but about the State becoming certifiably Christian by Constitutional declaration.

It was always meant to be Salvation to the world, and that all of "The Israel of God" would be saved by the fullness of the Gentiles coming in among the Jews, also becoming citizens of the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians 2:11-13).

Sorry, but that's just not how I read it, nor does the way you read it sound sensible to me! Paul was not talking about removal of national distinctions, rendering Israel a non-country! Rather, he was talking about Israel itself achieving fulness as a nation, and specifically as a Christian nation.

The fulness of Gentile nations coming in set a precedent for those steeped in sin coming to Christ by grace. Israel, therefore, is made eligible with the full display of grace among the Gentiles. Even more, Christ will come back at that point, as the doors close to the Gospel in the world, and he will remove all causes of sin in Israel and in the world.

Thus God has always ordained a restoration of Israel from a global source....
This is the Restoration of Israel, and it is not Replacement Theology, as you falsely alleged. It is "Inclusion Theology." For example, the Gentiles, chosen of God, have been "included" in the Kingdom of Israel. The physical land of Israel was NOT in view, and all the Jewish people of Israel have NEVER been the true Israel (Romans 9:6). The true Israel of God has always been a spiritual people. A remnant then in the Old Testament, and a remnant now in the New Testament. The only difference is that now, a larger remnant of the Gentiles is also included on a worldwide scale. A larger portion of the Jews first, then a larger portion of the Gentiles last.

You may wish to use the term "Inclusion Theology," but that cannot erase the facts depicted by the term "Replacement Theology." You are doing just what we would claim you're doing--you're erasing the physical distinctions of the land and the people and making all people, without distinctions, a replacement for "Israel." You're replacing "Israel" with "the Church!"

 

[TribulationSigns]

Well, that's about the silliest thing I've heard all day! Because something is not in the Scriptures, it is therefore not a real term and can't represent something honestly?

So if I mention microbiology, and it isn't in the Scriptures, it therefore isn't a real term, and can't represent real science? You see what I mean?

No you misrepresented what I said. You need to read the whole context of my statement again.

I'm just saying that Replacement Theology is a term used in the modern world to reflect a real position.

Red herrings

You may not personally like the label, but for those who do use the label, it accurately represents just what I said--the belief that national distinctions are irrelevant in God's program of Salvation, and therefore the nation Israel cannot be salvaged from extinction.

You do err, for you do not know what Scripture says.

How absurd is that? There are no national distinctions? That is obviously not true to life. There *are* national distinctions! There *is* an Israel!

Nope, not according to the Word of God.

Furthermore, nations can be saved from extinction

False! We are not on a mission to save physical geopolitical nations. We are sent on a great commission to save PEOPLE from the nations and bring them into a Holy Nation, the Covenant Israel.

1Pe 2:9
(9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

God is not talking about a literal nation in the Middle East. It is a spiritual nation. AND there is no such thing as future salvation plan for national Israel. Sorry!

. For example, France was saved from total absorption by Germany in WW2. And there were many such countries. Clearly, Israel can be saved.

Sigh!! This is not how we understand Scripture that way. You are too obsessed with national Israel to see the Truth.

Even more, the deliverance of the Jewish People from extinction makes the possibility that they convert to being a Christian country very possible.

So, the Jews have heard the gospel for the past 2,000 years regardless of where they lived.

If it happened for the Roman Empire and for many European peoples, it can certainly happen for Israel. I'm not talking about every individual in the State becoming Christian but about the State becoming certifiably Christian by Constitutional declaration.

That is where you are wrong. We are to be fishers of MEN from the nations, but seems that you have decided to go the futile path of attempting to make nations holy. Tsk tsk.

Sorry, but that's just not how I read it, nor does the way you read it sound sensible to me!

Not my problem. Its between you and God.

Paul was not talking about removal of national distinctions, rendering Israel a non-country! Rather, he was talking about Israel itself achieving fulness as a nation, and specifically as a Christian nation.

Guess you have reading issues. God clearly talk about Israel no longer representing the Kingdom of God. Its in the Scripture but you won't receive it because it contradicts your belief. Either you receive it or be blind as the priests and Pharisees:

Mat 21:42-45
(42) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
(43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
(44) And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
(45) And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

You need to do your homework on what Christ said:

1.) Who are the builders that rejected Christ?
2.) What nation did the Lord give the Kingdom representation to after taken from Israel?
3.) Per context, who did Christ talk about that lost the kingdom representation?

The fulness of Gentile nations coming in set a precedent for those steeped in sin coming to Christ by grace. Israel, therefore, is made eligible with the full display of grace among the Gentiles. Even more, Christ will come back at that point, as the doors close to the Gospel in the world, and he will remove all causes of sin in Israel and in the world.

Huh? That is a private interpretation and is not supported by Scripture. It is interesting to note that unlike me, you did not even offer a single verse in your defense. Just speculations.

You may wish to use the term "Inclusion Theology," but that cannot erase the facts depicted by the term "Replacement Theology."

The Lord judges and I am comfortable with it.

You are doing just what we would claim you're doing--you're erasing the physical distinctions of the land and the people and making all people, without distinctions, a replacement for "Israel."

That is a false accusation. I never teach that we, the church, have replaced Israel. Obviously, you did not study Scripture well. The Gentiles are grafted INTO Covenant Israel where the remnants of elect Jews (not physical nation) are. In other words, God has included Gentiles in his one covenant Tree. That's inclusion theology. Not replace national Israel.

You're replacing "Israel" with "the Church!"

False accusation. I do not teach that. But I can understand this coming from someone who is natural or carnal thinking God has a plan for national Israel in the future. Oh well. I will be praying for you.