Who Really Are The 144,000?

[TribulationSigns]

No, I'm quite serious. You have mis-read the passage where God calls national Israel His "son." It is to be understood with a small "s." The passage is *not* saying Israel is Christ!

I am quite serious that you are WRONG. You did NOT read or compare Scripture with Scripture carefully. As it is written in Matthew 2: Christ!

Mat 2:13-15
(13) And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
(14) When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
(15) And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet (Hosea), saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Didn't God called His son, Jesus Christ out of Egypt after the death of Herod PER CONTEXT, did He not? It is prophetically to the Messiah! The True Israel, Jesus Christ, and Israel are "one" in precisely the same way that we His Curch are "one body with HIM.

Now, as for your insistence on "Son" is not capitalized, but that is an INTERPRETION of the version, NOT a reflection of the Hebrew. There is NO distinction between lower and upper case in the Hebrew manuscript (or the original Greek either, for that matter). For a version to write "Son" would be problematic in any case, for it would suggest:

1.) the reference to Jesus was known by the prophet,
2.) the Messianic reference was the primary or perhaps the ONLY meaning of the verse.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I am quite serious that you are WRONG. You did NOT read or compare Scripture with Scripture carefully. As it is written in Matthew 2: Christ!

Mat 2:13-15
(13) And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
(14) When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
(15) And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet (Hosea), saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Didn't God called His son, Jesus Christ out of Egypt after the death of Herod PER CONTEXT, did He not? It is prophetically to the Messiah! The True Israel, Jesus Christ, and Israel are "one" in precisely the same way that we His Curch are "one body with HIM.

Now, as for your insistence on "Son" is not capitalized, but that is an INTERPRETION of the version, NOT a reflection of the Hebrew. There is NO distinction between lower and upper case in the Hebrew manuscript (or the original Greek either, for that matter). For a version to write "Son" would be problematic in any case, for it would suggest:

1.) the reference to Jesus was known by the prophet,
2.) the Messianic reference was the primary or perhaps the ONLY meaning of the verse.

CLICK. This kind of prophecy is very common in the Bible. All the Law and the Prophets spoke, indirectly, of Christ. They provided an analogy, or foreshadowing, of who Christ was to be and what he would do. You cannot find a great saint in the OT who doesn't in some way point to Christ. Prophecies of Israel coming out of Egypt were literal, but analogically pointed to Christ himself being called up out of Egypt.

The point is, Israel was being called a child of God--not Christ. Israel was, as such, an analogy of Christ, God's only Son. Christ was not the only son of God. We are all sons of God through him.

​

And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers Out of Egypt have I called my son.—As the words stand in Hosea 11:1, “When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt,” they refer, beyond the shadow of a doubt, to the history of Israel, as being in a special sense, among all the nations of the world, the chosen son of Jehovah (Exodus 4:22-23). It is hard to imagine any reader of the prophecy not seeing that this was what we should call the meaning. But the train of thought which leads the Evangelist to apply it to the Christ has a distinct method of its own. A coincidence in what seems an accessory, a mere circumstance of the story, carries his mind on to some deeper analogies.

 

[Keraz]

True believers are the Israel of God :

Many ask, Who are God's chosen people in the earth today? Who are His elect? Are they of the natural seed of the children of Israel? Are they the "Jews" according to their ethnic lineage? Or are God's chosen people now the Christian believers of Jesus Christ?

It is commonly believed that the church must be raptured into heaven so that God can renew His separate program with the natural Jew. But is this truth? Is He going to redeem them in their present state, then remarry them?

Will the O.T. Law: the Mosaic Covenant which was only temporary, Hebrews 7:12 & 8:l3, be able to somehow in the future, disannul the Abrahamic covenant, of which the church is now the only partaker through the Seed of Abraham: Jesus Christ?

It has been well said, that the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. The whole Bible teaches only ONE acceptable seed, ONE family, ONE all-encompassing covenant, only ONE Israelite people as the true Covenant "children of the living God." Romans 9:26, Eph. 4:4-6

The New Covenant promised seed has been sown and is risen to replace the Old Covenant chosen seed and its unfruitful, ineffective, but once necessary life has passed out of God's plan, just as surely as have works of the Old Testament Law.

Ancient Israel, is a type of the "first man Adam, the old man": the natural body. Whereas the new Israel of Christianity is of the "last Adam, the new creation", a spiritual body.

The firstborn was Jacob, typifying Israel of the flesh- Ex.4:22; Hos.11:1. The second born: Jesus, was of the Spirit, 1 Cor.12:12-14. In Genesis 25:23 we also see two nations, a natural ethnic Israel and a spiritual true; Israel of God.

Israel of old was chosen as the firstfruits nation of the fallen Adamic seed to receive and carry the revelation of the creative, redemptive, promises of God Almighty. Isaiah 43:10; Romans 3:2 It was revealed to them long ago: I the Lord am holy and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine. Leviticus 20:26

God later divorced ethnic Israel on the grounds of whoring after idols. Jer. 3:1-11 and will marry another woman: the true Christian believers. Matt. 21:43, Isaiah 62:1-5
The faithful and obedient children in the true "Israel of God" are being prepared and made ready, Revelation 19:7…prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

In perfect holy union, the bride, the Lamb's wife, shall be called "the holy people, the redeemed of the Lord”. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:9-10

False teaching is that God's chosen are still the natural Jew and that everything for us as a Christian is in heaven; that Jesus has to hurry up and rapture us out of the earth so that He can renew His program and make another covenant with the chosen Jewish nation. But, the truth of Bible teaching is that Christian believers are His only chosen and that only through Abrahams Seed, the true Christian Church, shall all the families of the earth he blessed, then we had better stop and re-evaluate this issue. The serious mistake for far too long, has been--that much of the Bible's truth concerning Israel is part of another Covenant and for another day or another people.

Friends, that is actually "another gospel." Galatians 1:8-9
Ref; Ross McKay

 

[TribulationSigns]

True believers are the Israel of God :

Many ask, Who are God's chosen people in the earth today? Who are His elect? Are they of the natural seed of the children of Israel? Are they the "Jews" according to their ethnic lineage? Or are God's chosen people now the Christian believers of Jesus Christ?

It is commonly believed that the church must be raptured into heaven so that God can renew His separate program with the natural Jew. But is this truth? Is He going to redeem them in their present state, then remarry them?

Will the O.T. Law: the Mosaic Covenant which was only temporary, Hebrews 7:12 & 8:l3, be able to somehow in the future, disannul the Abrahamic covenant, of which the church is now the only partaker through the Seed of Abraham: Jesus Christ?

It has been well said, that the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. The whole Bible teaches only ONE acceptable seed, ONE family, ONE all-encompassing covenant, only ONE Israelite people as the true Covenant "children of the living God." Romans 9:26, Eph. 4:4-6

The New Covenant promised seed has been sown and is risen to replace the Old Covenant chosen seed and its unfruitful, ineffective, but once necessary life has passed out of God's plan, just as surely as have works of the Old Testament Law.

Ancient Israel, is a type of the "first man Adam, the old man": the natural body. Whereas the new Israel of Christianity is of the "last Adam, the new creation", a spiritual body.

The firstborn was Jacob, typifying Israel of the flesh- Ex.4:22; Hos.11:1. The second born: Jesus, was of the Spirit, 1 Cor.12:12-14. In Genesis 25:23 we also see two nations, a natural ethnic Israel and a spiritual true; Israel of God.

Israel of old was chosen as the firstfruits nation of the fallen Adamic seed to receive and carry the revelation of the creative, redemptive, promises of God Almighty. Isaiah 43:10; Romans 3:2 It was revealed to them long ago: I the Lord am holy and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine. Leviticus 20:26

God later divorced ethnic Israel on the grounds of whoring after idols. Jer. 3:1-11 and will marry another woman: the true Christian believers. Matt. 21:43, Isaiah 62:1-5
The faithful and obedient children in the true "Israel of God" are being prepared and made ready, Revelation 19:7…prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

In perfect holy union, the bride, the Lamb's wife, shall be called "the holy people, the redeemed of the Lord”. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:9-10

False teaching is that God's chosen are still the natural Jew and that everything for us as a Christian is in heaven; that Jesus has to hurry up and rapture us out of the earth so that He can renew His program and make another covenant with the chosen Jewish nation. But, the truth of Bible teaching is that Christian believers are His only chosen and that only through Abrahams Seed, the true Christian Church, shall all the families of the earth he blessed, then we had better stop and re-evaluate this issue. The serious mistake for far too long, has been--that much of the Bible's truth concerning Israel is part of another Covenant and for another day or another people.

Friends, that is actually "another gospel." Galatians 1:8-9
Ref; Ross McKay

very good post Kerez.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You don't have a clue of what you're talking about.

The proof is how I well know you have NOT studied all your Bible to even throw out that Jew's false Replacement Theology idea.

It is YOU that is modifying The Bible, since you are totally unaware of God's prophecies to the ten tribe "house of Israel". Thus you blabber against something you haven't even bothered to study and don't know.

Pot <> kettle big time.
I prefer concept vs concept without the juvenile insults.
Also tells me your position is weak since you go " low level" in the debate

 

[rebuilder 454]

Not at all. You quote "Israel" and then say, "It doesn't really mean Israel." So who is in error?

I see. Because you are the "spiritual one," and I'm the "carnal one," then obviously this means you've proven your case? Pretty weak, don't you think?

You should apologize. You quote a verse that says "Israel," and then say, "Listen to me--I'm the spiritual one. It isn't really Israel." Others can decide for themselves.

I agree that the ones claiming they alone are hearing God due to their awesome spiritual supremacy are usually the ones that butt their heads against the bible.
All cult leaders claim that same spiritual supremacy

 

[rebuilder 454]

True believers are the Israel of God :

Many ask, Who are God's chosen people in the earth today? Who are His elect? Are they of the natural seed of the children of Israel? Are they the "Jews" according to their ethnic lineage? Or are God's chosen people now the Christian believers of Jesus Christ?

It is commonly believed that the church must be raptured into heaven so that God can renew His separate program with the natural Jew. But is this truth? Is He going to redeem them in their present state, then remarry them?

Will the O.T. Law: the Mosaic Covenant which was only temporary, Hebrews 7:12 & 8:l3, be able to somehow in the future, disannul the Abrahamic covenant, of which the church is now the only partaker through the Seed of Abraham: Jesus Christ?

It has been well said, that the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. The whole Bible teaches only ONE acceptable seed, ONE family, ONE all-encompassing covenant, only ONE Israelite people as the true Covenant "children of the living God." Romans 9:26, Eph. 4:4-6

The New Covenant promised seed has been sown and is risen to replace the Old Covenant chosen seed and its unfruitful, ineffective, but once necessary life has passed out of God's plan, just as surely as have works of the Old Testament Law.

Ancient Israel, is a type of the "first man Adam, the old man": the natural body. Whereas the new Israel of Christianity is of the "last Adam, the new creation", a spiritual body.

The firstborn was Jacob, typifying Israel of the flesh- Ex.4:22; Hos.11:1. The second born: Jesus, was of the Spirit, 1 Cor.12:12-14. In Genesis 25:23 we also see two nations, a natural ethnic Israel and a spiritual true; Israel of God.

Israel of old was chosen as the firstfruits nation of the fallen Adamic seed to receive and carry the revelation of the creative, redemptive, promises of God Almighty. Isaiah 43:10; Romans 3:2 It was revealed to them long ago: I the Lord am holy and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine. Leviticus 20:26

God later divorced ethnic Israel on the grounds of whoring after idols. Jer. 3:1-11 and will marry another woman: the true Christian believers. Matt. 21:43, Isaiah 62:1-5
The faithful and obedient children in the true "Israel of God" are being prepared and made ready, Revelation 19:7…prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

In perfect holy union, the bride, the Lamb's wife, shall be called "the holy people, the redeemed of the Lord”. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:9-10

False teaching is that God's chosen are still the natural Jew and that everything for us as a Christian is in heaven; that Jesus has to hurry up and rapture us out of the earth so that He can renew His program and make another covenant with the chosen Jewish nation. But, the truth of Bible teaching is that Christian believers are His only chosen and that only through Abrahams Seed, the true Christian Church, shall all the families of the earth he blessed, then we had better stop and re-evaluate this issue. The serious mistake for far too long, has been--that much of the Bible's truth concerning Israel is part of another Covenant and for another day or another people.

Friends, that is actually "another gospel." Galatians 1:8-9
Ref; Ross McKay

Ok this in itself is error due to what we have in the word.
Plus you misframe what you think the other side believes.
It is not what you are saying.

okay I hope you're not misunderstanding that there are in fact two Covenants.
there is an old Covenant and there is a new covenant .
now the old Covenant was not flawed in itself ,but in its application to mankind, because man could not keep the law perfectly.
Jesus came and through his sacrifice we have Grace.
we have forgiveness.
we enter Heaven through the blood.

we enter Heaven with an advocate Jesus Christ and so we are saved from hell even though we are flawed.
in the first Covenant it only revealed that they were in fact flawed.
so there are two Covenants.
now the first Covenant people are Covenant people because God made a covenant with them only.
(with the Jew only)
but the second Covenant is with the world ...with all the nations and it includes the Jews.
so if you don't get that fact straight then you're not going to see the obvious which is that the Jew will be saved through their Messiah.

they are waiting on their Messiah and his name is Jesus.
they don't know the Messiah already came.
they're blinded and they're stubborn and they refuse Jesus therefore they will not enter Heaven. Only the Messianic Jew enters heaven and this is so vividly Illustrated in the 144,000 because they are not only ethnic Jews ,but they are Messianic Jews.

we see them in Revelation 14 gathered as first fruits (messianic Jews) to heaven, and then a few sentences later we see all the rest of the Jews that are looking to Jesus as he appears in the sky, are also gathered.

they're saved and brought into heaven.
this is the Wayward wife lost and then gathered.
this is the Jew , the Covenant Jew turning to Jesus, that's brought in after the Rapture of the Gentile bride.

 

[rebuilder 454]

very good post Kerez.

Well they have a covenant.
What he is omitting is that they come back to God through Jesus.
He is making it sound like Jesus is not a component in their grafting back in.
Iow...the 144k follow Jesus.
That is written. It is a fact they are ethnic Jews but messianic.

 

[Davy]

Pot <> kettle big time.
I prefer concept vs concept without the juvenile insults.
Also tells me your position is weak since you go " low level" in the debate

How could you even participate... in a valid Biblical debate, since you do not know Bible history??

Mocking those WHO DO KNOW, that DO STUDY all their Bible, is all that is left for you to do. That is how small a person you reveal to everyone here, that you are.

 

[Davy]

Ok this in itself is error due to what we have in the word.
Plus you misframe what you think the other side believes.
It is not what you are saying.

No, Keraz is actually correct, per Bible Scripture.

The majority of the 'seed' of Israel, the ten lost tribes, have been documented by Bible scholars to have migrated mostly to the west from their Assyrian captivity, and have been identified as the Cimmerian and Scythian tribes that migrated westward into Asia Minor and Europe, many of them passing through the Dariel Pass in the Caucasus Mountains above the Black Sea, and began to be called Caucasians. Another branch of the ten tribes, the Scythians, mainly passed westward south of the Black Sea into Europe. Professor Leroy Waterman of the University of Michigan in 1930, a Linguist, translated a group of Assyrian correspondences referring to the names for the ten tribes of Israel while in their Assyrian captivity. He linked the name 'Cimmerian' with what the Assyrians called the ten tribes in captivity, and earlier their king Omri king of the house of Israel.

Those Cimmerians and Scythians make up the early Caucasian peoples of Europe and Asia Minor. So it happened like Lord Jesus said, that He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Past the time of 1 Kings 11 with God splitting old Israel into two separate kingdoms and thus two separate groups or nations, the "house of Israel" title ONLY belongs to the TEN NORTHERN TRIBES OF ISRAEL, and not to the JEWS of the southern kingdom of the "house of Judah". You don't know any of this because you have already shown you haven't done your homework in God's Word first, and I won't mention how much lacking in study you are about the rest of history about it.

Then per Paul in Romans 9, he covers the idea about 'spiritual' Israel, put for ALL who have believed on Jesus Christ being God's ISRAEL, regardless of flesh seed. So that covers believing Gentiles along with the believing scattered 'seed' of Israel, and the remnant of believing Jews included with the ten tribes. Those make up the MAJORITY of God's Israel today, also called Christ's Church!

And even in Ephesians 2, Apostle Paul pointed to believing Gentiles having come into the promises and covenants God gave to Israel, and becoming part of what Paul said is, "the commonwealth of Israel". A commonwealth is like a group of nations. And that exactly is what Christ's Church is today in the world, made up of a group of Christian nations where the majority of its people believe on Jesus Christ. That many nations in Christ was Old Testament Bible prophecy also, but of course you don't even know about that either, showing how blind you are and lacking in Bible study.

Then there's the nation state in the middle east today called... Israel, where a majority of the seed of old Israel still reject Jesus Christ as Messiah. They still are part of God's Israel though, because like Apostle Paul said in Romans 11, God blinded those so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles (and to the lost ten tribes scattered among them). Paul showed that when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, that is when their blindness will be removed, and God will forgive their sin.

And thusly... the Ezekiel 37 Scripture declares in final, under Christ, the FUTURE JOINING BACK TOGETHER OF THE TWO SEPARATED HOUSES of Israel, the "house of Israel" (represented by Joseph), and the "house of Judah" (represented by Judah).

 

[Davy]

Well they have a covenant.
What he is omitting is that they come back to God through Jesus.
He is making it sound like Jesus is not a component in their grafting back in.
Iow...the 144k follow Jesus.
That is written. It is a fact they are ethnic Jews but messianic.

NO... only THREE TRIBES out of the Rev.7 144,000 represent believing JEWS.

Once again, you keep repeating YOUR BIBLICAL ILLITERACY about the Old Testament events of 1 Kings 11 forward when God split old Israel into TWO SEPARATE KINGDOMS.



Per Revelation 7:
(which leaves out the tribe of Dan that was originally among the northern ten tribes):

JEWS of the "house of Judah" = tribes of Juda, Benjamin, Levi.

non-Jew Israelites of the "house of Israel", the ten northern tribes = tribes of Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nepthali, Manasses, Simeon, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph.


Therefore, the ethnic Jews that call themselves Messianic Jews or others that call themselves 'Jews For Jesus', because they believe on Jesus Christ, are actually just a small remnant from the old 3-tribe kingdom "house of Judah" at Jerusalem/Judea per 1 Kings 12 forward.

The majority of Christ's Church today that migrated westward into Asia Minor and Europe from their Assyrian captivity, are made up of the NON-Jews of the "house of Israel", the ten northern tribe "kingdom of Israel" per 1 Kings 11 forward.

 

[Earburner]

I think you misunderstood here.

God's Word clearly states that:

1.) The Spirit of Salvation WAS with the Old Testament Saints.
2.) With the pouring out of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is a New Dispensation unto the Gentiles.

Yet these spirits are the same Holy Spirit. Not two.

Eph 3:2-6
(2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
(3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
(4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
(5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
(6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Joh 7:35-39
(35) Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?
(36) What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
(37) In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
(38) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Now, any idea WHY the Jews said that? ...not a clue huh? Selah!

Joh 14:16-17
(16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
(17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This is exactly what I am talking about. Taking a Scripture out of context in an attempt to FORCE it to mean (not say) that The Holy Spirit had ever before been given. That is complete nonsense! The Holy SPirit of God has been given MANY TIMES throughout Scripture. But it had not been given in this new dispensation of Revelation and salvation to the whole world. For example, what is the Mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world, and HOW it that mystery now REVEALED! By the dispensation of the Holy Spirit. The seals are loosed and the books opened that the Spirit of Truth REVEALS these things to the Apostles.

Joh 16:12-15
(12) I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
(13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
(14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
(15) All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Again, I don't make this stuff up, it is written. But you seem to read the Bible is a discursive manner where you just go from one passage to another passage to another attempting to make the Holy Spirit being given in the Old Testament a contradiction. But it is NOT, and never will be. God has given the Spirit of Revelation, and it is plainly written. John 7 does not prove your point, it reveals the gospel will be "made known" to them and they shall preach it to the ends of the Earth. Something which they had never done BEFORE, and which was in fact abhorrent to them before this time...as the Gentiles were looked upon as dogs:

Joh 7:38-39
(38) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Once Jesus was glorified and sent the Holy Spirit of Revelation, only then did they now realize that salvation (that was in old testament period) is REVEALED to go to the Gentile nations. Only then was the Holy Spirit poured out at Pentecost to this end revealed in them speaking in tongues (the languages of all the other nations, not babbling or gibberish tongues as most taught in charmastic churches). Just because you don't get it doesn't mean that it is not true. The fact is, I have no satisfactory to acceptable answer for you...to others, perhaps.

So are you telling me that the Old Testament Saints NEVER received the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit was not poured yet until Pentecost? Wrong! Consider wisely what Isaiah wrote:

Isa 63:11
(11) Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

Are you going to listen to God's Word or your own ideas of things? As we've seen, it does not really matter to you how many Scirptures I post that show the Holy Spirit of God within His Old Testament prophets, you continue to scoff at it, and deny it, and in essence make God a Liar claiming that the Holy Spirit was not really given in the Old Testament? So what we have here is a miscommunication. We have God's unadulterated Word unambiguously saying it was, and then we have your denials of that? Who should we believe?

1Pe 1:10-11
(10) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
(11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Indeed, who are we to believe? You, who thinks that your passage can contradict another passage, or do we take ALL scripture in harmony with itself and not force it to mean things it does not say? You do understand that God "NEVER" said that the Holy Spirit never indwelled man BEFORE the cross, don't you? You do recognize that is your interpretation, not what was actually said...by contrast, I quoted what God actually said. See the difference?...probably not!

Rom 3:4
(4) God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Therefore, I am justified in bearing witness to God's Word. The question is, are you justified in denying it?

Allow me to condense it into one word: permanently; with the simple biblical understanding that ONLY by the shed blood of Christ could sin be removed (atoned for).

Until that very act took place, the HOLY Spirit of God could not, or ever, permanently dwell within those who lived under the OC.

However, they all, who were of faith and believed in the "Promise to come", were NOT forgotten of by God. Malachi 3:16. They are CLEARLY shown under the altar (of the OC) in Rev. 6:9-11, receiving the permanency of the Gift of God's Holy Spirit.
We know of them today as being the symbolic number of the 144 000.

Please take notice: In Rev. 7:4-8 all the 12 tribes are named and accounted for.
Ever since 70AD, that is not the case today.
Therefore, for all Jews who come to God through faith in Christ, ever since Pentecost, they will be OF THE GREAT MULITITUDE.

 

[Keraz]

Therefore, for all Jews who come to God through faith in Christ, ever since Pentecost, they will be OF THE GREAT MULITITUDE.

That you are wrong, is plain to see; the peoples who John sees in Rev 7:9, are from every tribe, race, nation and language.
They will be; mainly - the descendants of the ten Northern Tribes. Living people; on earth.
The People Jesus came to save, Matthew 15:24, now identified as the Christian peoples.

There is no general raising of the dead when Jesus Returns, or anytime before the GWT Judgment; after the Millennium. Rev 20:11-15

 

[Earburner]

That you are wrong, is plain to see; the peoples who John sees in Rev 7:9, are from every tribe, race, nation and language.
They will be; mainly - the descendants of the ten Northern Tribes. Living people; on earth.
The People Jesus came to save, Matthew 15:24, now identified as the Christian peoples.

There is no general raising of the dead when Jesus Returns, or anytime before the GWT Judgment; after the Millennium. Rev 20:11-15

KJV Rev. 7
[9] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV Luke 17:28-30, 2 Thes. 1:7-10 (specifically verse 10).

Ever since Pentecost, through Christ, God the Father does not see any difference between Jew or Gentile (Rom. 10:12). Therefore, while one still has breath, we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ. 2 Cor. 5:10.

For all who do not appear, and then do die, they remain to be condemned already, because of unbelief.
John 3:18 reveals the two judgments of God.
1. The judgement of eternal death by inheritance through Adam.
2. The judgement of eternal life through faith in Jesus.

There is no longer any preferential treatment of God towards the Jews for salvation.
He has judged all to be equally sinful.
Rom. 3:9, Gal. 3:22.

 

[Keraz]

KJV Rev. 7
[9] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV Luke 17:28-30, 2 Thes. 1:7-10 (specifically verse 10).

Ever since Pentecost, through Christ, God the Father does not see any difference between Jew or Gentile (Rom. 10:12). Therefore, while one still has breath, we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ. 2 Cor. 5:10.

For all who do not appear, and then do die, they remain to be condemned already, because of unbelief.
John 3:18 reveals the two judgments of God.
1. The judgement of eternal death by inheritance through Adam.
2. The judgement of eternal life through faith in Jesus.

There is no longer any preferential treatment of God towards the Jews for salvation.
He has judged all to be equally sinful.
Rom. 3:9, Gal. 3:22.

I agree, but the sequence of events will be as set out in Revelation.
Next to happen will be the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. Revelation 6:12-17
Then, all the Prophesied things leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.
The only people raised back to life then, will be the GT martyrs.

After the Millennium, comes the Great White Throne Judgment of everyone who has ever lived will stand before God.
Then comes Eternity.

 

[Davy]

That you are wrong, is plain to see; the peoples who John sees in Rev 7:9, are from every tribe, race, nation and language.
They will be; mainly - the descendants of the ten Northern Tribes. Living people; on earth.
The People Jesus came to save, Matthew 15:24, now identified as the Christian peoples.

There is no general raising of the dead when Jesus Returns, or anytime before the GWT Judgment; after the Millennium. Rev 20:11-15

I of course do not agree with that, nor does the Revelation 7 Scripture.

The 144,000 at the start of that Rev.7 chapter, 12,000 out of each the 12 tribes listed there, represents bloodline Israelites from the both the "house of Judah" (JEWS), and the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel".

Actually, the MAJORITY of those 144,000 represent TEN LOST TRIBE ISRAELITES scattered among the Gentiles and probably made up the original majority of Christ's Church historically in the early western Christian nations.

The problem will be for the end, only 12,000 out of those 9 tribes listed there from the "house of Israel" will be SEALED by The Holy Spirit for the coming tribulation.

The "great multitude" represents ONLY believing Gentiles of Christ's Church that are also SEALED by The Holy Spirit in prep to go through the "great tribulation". How do we know they are SEALED too? Because ONLY those of Christ's elect that are SEALED by The Holy Spirit will be standing before the Throne and before The Lamb (Jesus Christ) when He returns...

Rev 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV

 

[Keraz]

The Lord’s people, who are now every faithful Christian; are the ‘Seed’ of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Galatians 3:26-29 They are destined to be a ‘light to the nations’ and spread the gospel around the world. The Lord will answer their prayers for help on the Day of deliverance. Isaiah 30:26, Isaiah 63:4, Zechariah 9:14-17. pay heed you peoples far distant

Christians, all of His righteous people, scattered around the world. They will be joined by the few Christian Jews who survive. Isaiah 29:1-4, Jeremah 50:4-5 They will ‘come from far distant places, from all directions’, and settle in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

‘It will not be too hot’ and they will be guided and their needs provided for. Amos 9:13-15 They will restore the Land and buildings, and live there in safety and prosperity. Hosea 2:14-23, Ezekiel 36:8-12. so that My salvation may reach the ends of the earth’. This will be achieved by the 144,000 - 12,000 selected from each tribe, who will go out in pairs to preach the Gospel of the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Revelation 14:1-7, Isaiah 66:19 The final fulfilment of Luke 10:1-10

No mention is made of the Millennium reign of Jesus, therefore this restoration of the holy Land and gathering of His people, is before that event. This is in order for His people, all the Christian Israelites, Romans 8:16-17, to fulfil their destiny, to fulfil the promises made to the Patriarchs, and to prepare for the Return of Jesus. It is them who say: Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.

 

[strepho]

God's Zadok.
Most of what you say is accurate.
The 144,000 are servants of God. Yes, they are called by God to do task for God. But they are Not the remnant Elect or the very Elect (Zadok).
Isaiah chapter 6, the TEIL tree is holy seed, it's the remnant of God's Elect.
Many people have spirit of stupor. God's Election have holy spirit.
Back to 144,000.
Ezekiel chapter 44 . The 144,000 are the levites. They TEMPORARILY go astray when antichrist arrives 6th trump, and Israel, Christian nations, worshipped antichrist. During millennium, the levites, 144,000, will pay for their sins. They wont be allowed in the sanctuary during millennium. No access to Jesus. Get the picture.
The election, are predestined, chosen before foundation of the world, from the first earth age. They are the first fruits.
Documentation, romans chapter 11, chapter 8.
First Peter chapter 1
Ephesians chapter 1
Isaiah chapter 64
Ezekiel chapter 44
We see the distinction between servant of God and the Election.
The Zadok are the levitical priests, Ezekiel chapter 44. They are of the priesthood of Melchizedek.
Only two groups of people are allowed close to Jesus.
The Zoa, protecting cherubs.
The Zadok, Levitical Priests.
They don't have free will.

 

[Earburner]

The Lord’s people, who are now every faithful Christian; are the ‘Seed’ of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Galatians 3:26-29 They are destined to be a ‘light to the nations’ and spread the gospel around the world. The Lord will answer their prayers for help on the Day of deliverance. Isaiah 30:26, Isaiah 63:4, Zechariah 9:14-17. pay heed you peoples far distant

Christians, all of His righteous people, scattered around the world. They will be joined by the few Christian Jews who survive. Isaiah 29:1-4, Jeremah 50:4-5 They will ‘come from far distant places, from all directions’, and settle in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

That sounds too much like the agenda of the "Luciferian Doctrine" of the Banking Elite, through the image of the beast, the UN, to "Save the Planet", whose inhabitants will be only those who will have taken "the mark of the beast".

Have you not heard about THEIR futuristic plans of a NWO, "whose builder and maker"...will be MEN??
There are 10 commandments that were* on the "Georgia Guidestones"*, in the state of Georgia, USA.
Here is how #1 reads:
#1- Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.

The New Ten Commandments - The Georgia Guidestones - JA Show Articles

On the highest point in Elbert county in northeastern Georgia stands an unusual monument. Tucked into the heart of “granite” country, the “Georgia

jashow.org

(Edit): What are the Georgia Guidestones? Pictures and Facts | Student Handouts
(* Note: the Georgia Guidestones are now destroyed, as of July 6, 2022, with no arrests, or reported criminal investigation.)

With a current world population of 8 billion people, I'm sure we all can do the math, and come to the question: "What happened that 7.5 billion people went missing?"
No, it won't be an invisible "rapture" of some sort, but rather Medical genocide and WW3, causing the collapse of the global economy, thus bringing on hardship, famine and death, whereby the "mark of the beast," (CBDC- digital currency and a digital ID) will be implemented and then enforced by the UN. KJV Rev. 13:15-18**.
(** Note: A clue about verse 18 is "gold", which is "fiat currency" to us).

Please see KJV 1 Kings 10:14. It's about "a man" who had "wisdom", and had to deal with that "number" of six hundred, threescore and six talents of gold.
The mark of the beast will be economic, which will come from the "Global Economic Empire" of the Banking Elite.

We have already gone through the "scorpion sting" with lockdowns, and now again, they are starting up in mid Sept. this year. KJV Rev. 9:1-12.

So what's next?
WW3- KJV Rev. 9:13-21. One third of men are killed by the weapons of that war (verse 18), on a SPECIFIC DATE, so says verse 15.

 

[Keraz]

That sounds too much like the agenda of the "Luciferian Doctrine" of the Banking Elite

But it isn't.
People either believe what the Prophetic Word says, or they make up weird and wonderful fables.

The Bible is quite clear on what God has planned for our future. Believe it or not, your choice.