Who Really Are The 144,000?

[Randy Kluth]

No you misrepresented what I said. You need to read the whole context of my statement again.
Red herrings
You do err, for you do not know what Scripture says.
Nope, not according to the Word of God.
False! We are not on a mission to save physical geopolitical nations. We are sent on a great commission to save PEOPLE from the nations and bring them into a Holy Nation, the Covenant Israel.

You think this is a discussion? "You do err?"

1Pe 2:9
(9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

God is not talking about a literal nation in the Middle East. It is a spiritual nation. AND there is no such thing as future salvation plan for national Israel. Sorry!'

Actually, that is exactly what the Scripture passage that you quoted said! You just deny it?

Not my problem. Its between you and God.
Guess you have reading issues. God clearly talk about Israel no longer representing the Kingdom of God. Its in the Scripture but you won't receive it because it contradicts your belief. Either you receive it or be blind as the priests and Pharisees:
You need to do your homework on what Christ said...

You aren't saying much here. I already explained how I see the Kingdom was taken from Israel--it will be given back to them. No need to repeat.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You think this is a discussion? "You do err?"

Yep...you do ERR!

Actually, that is exactly what the Scripture passage that you quoted said! You just deny it?

We read the same passage yet we differ in understanding who Christ talked about. You with carnal mind thought God was talking about national Israel while I, with spiritual discernment, where God was talking about spiritual Israel in Christ where He is NOW a cornerstone of that building.

Not national Israel. Sorry!

You aren't saying much here.

Because you refuse to read and receive.

I already explained how I see the Kingdom was taken from Israel--it will be given back to them.

Of course, I will repeat that you do ERR! Over and over and over. With Scripture. God did not say that the kingdom representation was taken from Isreal and then given back to them again...in three days, John 2:18-21! You need to read the rest of Scripture where Christ declared concerning national Israel when Christ judged her...

Mat 21:19
(19) And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

What made you think National Israel will receive a kingdom representation again if she no longer produces fruit EVER AGAIN? Like I said, you do err with the carnal mind.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yep...you do ERR!

Not at all. You quote "Israel" and then say, "It doesn't really mean Israel." So who is in error?

We read the same passage yet we differ in understanding who Christ talked about. You with carnal mind thought God was talking about national Israel while I, with spiritual discernment, where God was talking about spiritual Israel in Christ where He is NOW a cornerstone of that building.

I see. Because you are the "spiritual one," and I'm the "carnal one," then obviously this means you've proven your case? Pretty weak, don't you think?

Not national Israel. Sorry!

You should apologize. You quote a verse that says "Israel," and then say, "Listen to me--I'm the spiritual one. It isn't really Israel." Others can decide for themselves.

 

[Davy]

You think this is a discussion? "You do err?"

Actually, that is exactly what the Scripture passage that you quoted said! You just deny it?

You aren't saying much here. I already explained how I see the Kingdom was taken from Israel--it will be given back to them. No need to repeat.

You are both wrong.

The Gospel went to the "house of Israel", the ten scattered tribes, long, long ago, with the establishing of the Western Christian nations which fulfilled Ephraim's seed becoming "a multitude of nations" (Genesis 48). Lord Jesus in Matthew 21 even pointed to the "house of Israel" when He gave the "vineyard" parable, because Isaiah 5 is where He declared the ten tribe "house of Israel" as the 'vineyard' and Judah as His 'pleasant plant'.

The ten tribe "house of Israel" with believing Gentiles came under the New Covenant in Christ Jesus. And the ten tribe "house of Israel" originally made up the MAJORITY of Israelites. Thus Apostle Paul calls Christ's Church "the commonwealth of Israel" in Ephesians 2. Only a small remnant of the "house of Judah" (JEWS) converted to Jesus Christ.

God's Israel = Christ's Church

 

[TribulationSigns]

You are both wrong.

The Gospel went to the "house of Israel", the ten scattered tribes, long, long ago, with the establishing of the Western Christian nations which fulfilled Ephraim's seed becoming "a multitude of nations" (Genesis 48). Lord Jesus in Matthew 21 even pointed to the "house of Israel" when He gave the "vineyard" parable, because Isaiah 5 is where He declared the ten tribe "house of Israel" as the 'vineyard' and Judah as His 'pleasant plant'.

The ten tribe "house of Israel" with believing Gentiles came under the New Covenant in Christ Jesus. And the ten tribe "house of Israel" originally made up the MAJORITY of Israelites. Thus Apostle Paul calls Christ's Church "the commonwealth of Israel" in Ephesians 2. Only a small remnant of the "house of Judah" (JEWS) converted to Jesus Christ.

God's Israel = Christ's Church

Speculation. Your understanding on "the lost tribes of Israel" is biblically lacking.

Allow me to explain WITH SCRIPTURE regarding the so-called ten lost tribes of Israel. Why is it important to know what happened to the 10 northern tribes of Israel? Well, there are many reasons, not the least of which is that the lost tribes of Israel prefigures the lost sheep of Israel, who when Jesus Christ (the greater Cyrus) would come, would seek and return them to the restored kingdom, fulfilling the prophesy of the throne of David.

Acts 1:6

• "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

They were asking Jesus when Israel would again become a restored Kingdom. Unlike man today, they understood the literal Israel was not lost. And Indeed Christ had promised the 12 Apostles that they would sit judging the 12 tribes of Israel in the regeneration. They could hardly sit judging these tribes of Israel, if the 12 tribes were lost or not accounted for. Selah!

Matthew 19:28

• "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

It is pretty clear Jesus is declaring that when He sits to rule on the throne of His Glory, the apostles would also sit as Kings and priests unto God to rule. And Christ clearly identifies the time of His sitting to rule in His Glory as, "in the regeneration." The question then is, biblically speaking, when is the regeneration? ..when does Christ reign in His Glory?

Titus 3:5

• "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he Saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

John 17:4-5

• "I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
• And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

1st Corinthians 15:25

• "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

This is when "the regeneration" occurs, according to God. What is the Regeneration? This is the Greek word [paliggenesia] taken from the root words [palin] meaning again or repeat, and [genesis] meaning a birth or nativity. In other words, to be born again. A spiritual nativity where they are made new by the Holy ghost. This is 'when' these apostles would reign as they sit on thrones in Christ to rule Israel. It is in this regeneration, or after being born again from the dead, that they would reign with Him. Did they become kings and Priests unto God to sit and rule with Him when they were raised up with Christ by the Holy Ghost? The answer (according to scripture) is obvious.

Ephesians 2:6

• "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

When the apostles were regenerated, born again from above, they were raised up in Christ to sit and rule with Him on His throne in heaven. When Jesus Christ ascended to the throne of David to rule the kingdom, this fulfilled the prophesy of the restoration of the Kingdom of David, and Christ sitting on that throne of Glory. As is clearly illustrated also in Acts:

Acts 2:29-31

• "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
• Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
• He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."

The Prophesy did not speak of an earthly reign on the throne of David, but spoke of the resurrection of Christ to sit in on His throne in heaven, and the apostles as being raised up with Him to also sit in heavenly places. The gathering of 'the remnant' of the tribes of Israel. The Old Testament restoring of the twelve tribes to the land of their fathers was the "type" not the "anti-type," and Cyrus fulfilled this. The Restoration of the Kingdom of God which the Apostles asked about, was accomplished in Christ being the seed of David who reconciled the dispersed to God in one body, "one Israel," one stick, united by the Lion of the tribe of Judah. This was accomplished by His death, resurrection, and ascension to the throne. The regeneration has the 12 sit to rule with Christ. And this anti-type of the preceding type is made clear in such verses as Matthew chapter 15:

Matthew 15:24

• "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

A very open testimony to the fulfillment of scripture in this Messiah, that He came to fulfill the prophesy of restoring the Kingdom of Israel. Not in literal Israelites lost in some foreign land, but a Spiritual Israel lost and being brought home. This is what the lost northern tribes merely prefigured. Some of them 'cut off,' but a remnant returning. This also seen in the angel speaking to Mary of His purpose and His reign.

Luke 1:31-33

• "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
• He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
• And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Just as Acts 2 said that this prophesy spake of the resurrection of Christ ascending into Heaven to sit on the throne of David. And note, the reign is not a 1000-year earthly reign, but was prophesied to be a reign that lasts forever over the house of Jacob. Only a reign in spiritual regeneration, Glory unto the throne of God, qualifies. This is the 'only' kingdom of which there shall be no end. The fulfillment of the prophecy of the restoration of Israel.

One may ask why the tribes are so important? It is because without knowledge of who they were, and how some were cut off while others returning (a remnant only), and of how the Temple is built again, and how the nation is restored as one people, etc., etc. We do not really understand the anti-type in Christ where the lost sheep of the house of Israel (a remnant only) return, the Temple is rebuilt in Him, and God's true Kingdom restored. SPIRITUALLY!!!

 

[Randy Kluth]

You are both wrong.

The Gospel went to the "house of Israel", the ten scattered tribes, long, long ago, with the establishing of the Western Christian nations which fulfilled Ephraim's seed becoming "a multitude of nations" (Genesis 48). Lord Jesus in Matthew 21 even pointed to the "house of Israel" when He gave the "vineyard" parable, because Isaiah 5 is where He declared the ten tribe "house of Israel" as the 'vineyard' and Judah as His 'pleasant plant'.

The ten tribe "house of Israel" with believing Gentiles came under the New Covenant in Christ Jesus. And the ten tribe "house of Israel" originally made up the MAJORITY of Israelites. Thus Apostle Paul calls Christ's Church "the commonwealth of Israel" in Ephesians 2. Only a small remnant of the "house of Judah" (JEWS) converted to Jesus Christ.

God's Israel = Christ's Church

Israel's citizenship was in the Kingdom of God, which was lost under the covenant of Law. Gentiles now have been given access to the same Kingdom of God, but now through the covenant of Christ.

None of this meant Israel stopped being the nation of Israel. None of this meant that Gentile nations became "Israel," or were united with Israel, since Israel is no longer citizens of God's Kingdom.

Gentile nations have joined in a citizenship in heaven that not all Israel enjoys And they have indeed been joined to the Christian minority among the Jewish People.

And as Gentile nations lose their Christian faith, this citizenship in heaven is enjoyed only by minorities in all nations. Israel and the Christian nations may again obtain their national citizenship in heaven, but only after Christ comes back to judge the world and to remove evil doers from among the nations.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Israel's citizenship was in the Kingdom of God, which was lost under the covenant of Law. Gentiles now have been given access to the same Kingdom of God, but now through the covenant of Christ.

Israel "IS" Christ, and He is "THEE" Covenant Tree. First, the Jews, then the Gentiles, grafted into the same tree. Nothing in Scripture tell us that the Jews will graft into Covenant Tree again after the church. You need to show Scripture to prove this.

None of this meant Israel stopped being the nation of Israel.

According to whom? You or God? Prove it with Scripture. Don't you know who to quote Scripture?

None of this meant that Gentile nations became "Israel," or were united with Israel, since Israel is no longer citizens of God's Kingdom.

You are blind to the truth beacue you only focus on physical nation of Israel where God does NOT talk about! Again, there are Gentile people saved OUT of all physical nations and grafted into spiritual Covenant Israel (not national Israel) as spiritual Jews. Get it? If you don't receive it, you are not close to the Truth.

Gentile nations have joined in a citizenship in heaven that not all Israel enjoys And they have indeed been joined to the Christian minority among the Jewish People.

Scripture, please.

And as Gentile nations lose their Christian faith

What?? Nations? A geopolitical nation loses its Christian faith. What are you talking about!? Did God tell us to make nations Christian?

this citizenship in heaven is enjoyed only by minorities in all nations. Israel and the Christian nations may again obtain their national citizenship in heaven, but only after Christ comes back to judge the world and to remove evil doers from among the nations.

Again, don't you know who to quote Scripture to support this nonsense?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Israel "IS" Christ....

No, Israel is *not* Christ. Israel is Israel and Christ is Christ, but Israel is not Christ! Do I really have to prove this to you? Do I have to prove a rock is not a tree, and a tree is not a rock? A boy is not a girl, and a girl is not a boy. Israel is *not* Christ!

, and He is "THEE" Covenant Tree. First, the Jews, then the Gentiles, grafted into the same tree. Nothing in Scripture tell us that the Jews will graft into Covenant Tree again after the church. You need to show Scripture to prove this.

I've proven it many times. 1st, the covenant God made with Abraham was to have the nation Israel. That promise has not been revoked. Instead it is restated repeatedly in the Scriptures.

The regathering of Christian Jews is a sign of the eventual regathering of all Israel--Rom 9-11. You can also see by the Disciples' question to Jesus about Israel's restoration in Acts 1 that they believed in Israel's national restoration.

Redefining "Israel" as something other than national Israel is not something the Bible teaches. Neither is a "de-nationalizing" of Israel taught in the Scriptures. On the contrary, when they are reduced, under judgment, to a remnant, the Prophets always state that in the end Israel will be regathered as a full nation.

What?? Nations? A geopolitical nation loses its Christian faith. What are you talking about!? Did God tell us to make nations Christian?

You have to be horribly ignorant of history to not know that there have been "Christian nations." When nations erode into a mode of backsliding from their national religion, true Christianity is reduced to a relatively few number. That is common sense and something we saw in the Bible happen to Israel.

 

[TribulationSigns]

No, Israel is *not* Christ. Israel is Israel and Christ is Christ, but Israel is not Christ! Do I really have to prove this to you? Do I have to prove a rock is not a tree, and a tree is not a rock? A boy is not a girl, and a girl is not a boy. Israel is *not* Christ!

I've proven it many times. 1st, the covenant God made with Abraham was to have the nation Israel. That promise has not been revoked. Instead it is restated repeatedly in the Scriptures.

LOL. Where is your Scripture many times? None!
Romans 9:8

• "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

Here God is answering the objection against the rejection of the Jews. In other words, if they are cast off by God, then what will become of the promise of God saying, I will be your God, and the God of your seed? And the answer is that the promise made to Abraham and Israel (as so clearly illustrated in Romans 9:4) are fulfilled. But not to the nation Israel, to people Israel, the same remnant people who they were made to in the first place.

And I've already given you the scriptures showing what "in Isaac shall thy seed be called" means, when God spoke of those of Israel not being Israel. You chose to adulterate the picture concerning the two sons. If you can't comprehend God's allegory concerning that prophecy after I gave you the scriptures explaining it, then there is nothing I can do to give you understanding. I am a witness to the scripture, the Holy Spirit alone reveals truth. If you can't follow scripture that clearly says the free son represented the New Covenant with Israel, then what can I say? ..nothing.

But if you can follow reason and logic, then understand that Christ is Israel, we are the seed of Christ (Israel) making us children of God. That's why God says, "all Israel are not Israel," illustrating that only those in Christ are! Hello?!

Unless of course you don't believe that Christ is Israel either, even though scripture plainly says that too. Selah!

The regathering of Christian Jews is a sign of the eventual regathering of all Israel--Rom 9-11.

That is not what the verse talked about. You lack spiritual understanding.

You can also see by the Disciples' question to Jesus about Israel's restoration in Acts 1 that they believed in Israel's national restoration.

Act 1:6-8
(6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
(7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Not restoration of national Israel. But Israel in Christ - those with the Holy Spirit who went into the whole world to preach the gospel. First the Jews then the Gentiles. NOthing talking about national Israel here.

Redefining "Israel" as something other than national Israel is not something the Bible teaches.

God did that I testified, and you were not able to see it or receive it.

Neither is a "de-nationalizing" of Israel taught in the Scriptures.

Again you err. The nation has lost its kingdom representative and it was given to the Church. Didn't you read the Scripture, like Christ said? Again and again and again!
Mat 21:42-45
(42) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
(43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
(44) And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
(45) And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

What nation did God give the kingdom representative to?

1Pe 2:9-10
(9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
(10) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Selah. If you don't receive it. This means you lack spiritual ears to hear.

You have to be horribly ignorant of history to not know that there have been "Christian nations."

Nowhere in Scripture that talks about Christian nations. Prove it with Scripture, Randy. I bet you can't because all you did was blabbing with speculation and suppositions without a shred of Scripture.

When nations erode into a mode of backsliding from their national religion

Huh?

, true Christianity is reduced to a relatively few number. That is common sense and something we saw in the Bible happen to Israel.

You are looking at the wrong place, dude. God is talking about His New Testament congregations all over the world (remember "the uttermost part of the earth" where God's people were sent with Gospel? He is not talking about the fall of "Christian nations" here but apostasy and desolation of His congregations within the nations, all over the world.

 

[TribulationSigns]

And one more thing, @Randy Kluth I am of the camp of the saints that recognizes that the Lord's covenant with Israel is by the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. And it reaches back to cover His children from Adam/Abel, to Noah, to Moses, to Paul, all the way to those saints who live today. It's called Covenant Theology. All were/are saved the very same way. Because they were all part of this ONE COVENANT with the "Israel of God" and had their sins washed away in Christ.

For example, they were Israel externally, but more importantly, they were Israel eternally because they were in Christ, who is THEE Israel. Those broken off were merely under the external Covenant relationship of God's people. I ask again "Do you deny that Christ is Israel?"

This Olive tree is a "representation" of this Covenant with Israel, and that is why it had primarily the Jews growing on it before the time of the cross, and the Gentiles are joined to this very same tree "AFTER" the cross. It's not a "New" tree, it's the very same external or corporate covenant tree that "some" Jews were broken off, but that a remnant of the Jews remains in. It is "this" same corporate tree that the Gentiles after the cross are grafted into. For example, there is no other possibility that it can be anything but a representation of the external Covenant with the children of God. Both before the cross, and after the cross. Some in the congregation are truly saved and will endure, some are not truly saved and will be broken off.

Therefore this tree has NOTHING to do with "nation" Israel. Selah!

 

[TribulationSigns]

And one more thing, @Randy Kluth I am of the camp of the saints that recognizes that the Lord's covenant with Israel is by the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. And it reaches back to cover His children from Adam/Abel, to Noah, to Moses, to Paul, all the way to those saints who live today. It's called Covenant Theology. All were/are saved the very same way. Because they were all part of this ONE COVENANT with the "Israel of God" and had their sins washed away in Christ.

For example, they were Israel externally, but more importantly, they were Israel eternally because they were in Christ, who is THEE Israel. Those broken off were merely under the external Covenant relationship of God's people. I ask again "Do you deny that Christ is Israel?"

This Olive tree is a "representation" of this Covenant with Israel, and that is why it had primarily the Jews growing on it before the time of the cross, and the Gentiles are joined to this very same tree "AFTER" the cross. It's not a "New" tree, it's the very same external or corporate covenant tree that "some" Jews were broken off, but that a remnant of the Jews remains in. It is "this" same corporate tree that the Gentiles after the cross are grafted into. For example, there is no other possibility that it can be anything but a representation of the external Covenant with the children of God. Both before the cross, and after the cross. Some in the congregation are truly saved and will endure, some are not truly saved and will be broken off.

Therefore this tree has NOTHING to do with "nation" Israel. Selah!
If you don't like it or believe it, then by all means, go ou there and pitch a tent and chair in the sands of the Middle East watching or promoting for literal fulfillment within a nation that fly a flag with blue and white Star of David while the prophecies are being SPIRITUALLY fulfilled within God's New Testament congregations all over the world. You could not see the TRUE signs of Christ's coming. So I am telling you the truth, you got the WRONG Israel to begin with. Don't tell me that I did not warn you before the dreadful Day of the Lord.

 

[Randy Kluth]

LOL. Where is your Scripture many times? None!

That's false. I gave you 1) the Abrahamic Covenant, 2) Rom 9-11, and 3) Acts 1. That is not "none." You simply disagree with the Scripture passages I gave you.

Romans 9:8

• "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

Nobody is arguing that the children God promised are those who He promised! This is a truism! Paul is arguing that because many in Israel fell away from God's Covenant that does not mean God failed--not all in Israel were "children of promise."

But my argument is that even though at times Israel's number is diminished, and the children of promise are less than a full nation, there is hope that a full nation can be restored, since that also is promised. That is part of Abraham's Covenant, not just individuals of promise, but also an entire nation--not necessarily that every individual in the nation will constitute a child of promise, but that an entire nation will exist, consisting of those who embrace the way of Abraham's faith.

Here God is answering the objection against the rejection of the Jews. In other words, if they are cast off by God, then what will become of the promise of God saying, I will be your God, and the God of your seed? And the answer is that the promise made to Abraham and Israel (as so clearly illustrated in Romans 9:4) are fulfilled. But not to the nation Israel, to people Israel, the same remnant people who they were made to in the first place.

No, that's not true. The promise was not changed from a promise of a nation to a promise of individual people. What was said is that when the nation was reduced to something less than a nation based on faith, a remnant continued to carry that faith until the nation is ultimately restored. The promise of a nation remains.

And I've already given you the scriptures showing what "in Isaac shall thy seed be called" means, when God spoke of those of Israel not being Israel. You chose to adulterate the picture concerning the two sons. If you can't comprehend God's allegory concerning that prophecy after I gave you the scriptures explaining it, then there is nothing I can do to give you understanding. I am a witness to the scripture, the Holy Spirit alone reveals truth. If you can't follow scripture that clearly says the free son represented the New Covenant with Israel, then what can I say? ..nothing.

You're assuming you're "God's witness" when that has yet to be established. Self-promotion doesn't prove you're correct.

When Paul argued that God's promise to Abraham concerned his "seed" he was referring to the fact Isaac was a child of promise, and as such was a child of faith in the future Christ. Paul was presenting Isaac as a principle that applies collectively to the descendants of Abraham but qualitatively only to those who would have faith in Christ.

Gal 3.16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.

Paul was arguing the basis for identifying who the true descendants of Abraham were, who true Israel was. It was those who put their faith in Christ for their redemption.

The fact some failed by the Law did not cause God's promise to fail since His promise was not based on perfect human obedience, but rather on dependence upon Christ's grace. The mere fact a remnant of Israel exists by Grace indicates the basis by which the nation will be restored--not that every individual Jew in this fallen age will become Christian but that the nation can be restored to be a Christian nation on the basis of Grace.

But if you can follow reason and logic, then understand that Christ is Israel, we are the seed of Christ (Israel) making us children of God. That's why God says, "all Israel are not Israel," illustrating that only those in Christ are! Hello?!

No, Christ is *not* Israel! Paul was not redefining the Seed of Abraham as Christ, nor denying that the children of promise would be restored as a full nation. Rather, he was arguing Christ as the basis by which this would be fulfilled. If it is fulfilled in individuals, then it can also be fulfilled on behalf of the national restoration of Israel.

Unless of course you don't believe that Christ is Israel either, even though scripture plainly says that too. Selah!

Huh? No, Scripture does not "plainly say that Christ is Israel!" Paul was arguing that faith in Christ defines the true descendants of Abraham as a collective in Christ. The "seed" of Abraham is not just the descendants of Abraham, but also, a collective defined by their common faith in Christ.

The promise was made to all of Abraham's descendants who would have faith in Christ. They are a collective "seed" in the one Christ.

Maybe you can go back over your post and remove some of the self-adulation and self-promotion? It doesn't argue your points, and it certainly doesn't look good!

 

[TribulationSigns]

That's false. I gave you 1) the Abrahamic Covenant

You did not quote the verse and explain it. You just said "Abrahamic Covenant without actually show your understanding of Scripture.

, 2) Rom 9-11,

You did not quote verses from Roman 9-11 and explain it biblically. You just claimed that it speaks of "nation" Isreal.

and 3) Acts 1.

You did not quote verses from Act 1 and explain it biblically. You believe that Paul talked about nation Israel.

All of these three has been refuted.

That is not "none."

As in no actual Scripture verses. Yes... NONE!

You simply disagree with the Scripture passages I gave you.

No, I asked you to quote actual versres and explain how you understand it BIBLICALLY. Not speculations. See the difference? No? I thought so.

Nobody is arguing that the children God promised are those who He promised! This is a truism! Paul is arguing that because many in Israel fell away from God's Covenant that does not mean God failed--not all in Israel were "children of promise."

Sigh... You do not make sense.

But my argument is that even though at times Israel's number is diminished, and the children of promise are less than a full nation, there is hope that a full nation can be restored, since that also is promised.

Oh, you believe there is a promise for "full" nation in the Middle East to be restored? Ha, I rest my case.

That is part of Abraham's Covenant, not just individuals of promise, but also an entire nation

False! You got wrong Israel explains the false doctrine of Dispensationalism.
Not a body of Jews or a body of nation Israel and a separate body of Gentiles, but one Holy Body made up of all peoples from all over the world who serve Christ. That is who Abraham's Covenant applies to!

Colossians 3:11

• "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

How many ways does God's word have to say it before Dispensationalists receive it as authoritative? Because they effectively say, "You are wrong God, there is Jew and there is Greek and they are not all one but two separate groups." NO, There is one Congregation made up of the children of God. There is no Jew and Gentile believers. Likewise, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Reformed, these are all "words" prescribed by men in their attempts to differentiate. But in reality, there is one body and one religion of saving faith. So while you may show disdain for those of the Reformed tradition, I welcome them as brethren and sisters in Christ. And to be frank, a lot more Biblically faithful than Dispensationalism.
Your understanding of the biblical covenant is deadly wrong. Dispensationalism does not address all issues concerning the biblical covenants. In fact, they force the Covenants to pertain to a whole nation when God Himself unambiguously declared that only a remnant of it would see that Covenant promise fulfilled. Just like a remnant of Gentiles. For example, Abraham was their patriarchal father in Christ and Abraham is our patriarchal father in Christ. Both Gentile and Jew are the seed of Abraham through Christ. NOT nation Israel! Selah! And those without Christ "ARE NOT" the seed of Abraham according to God's word. Like you, Dispensationalism does not "hear" these words of God.

John 8:39-43

• "They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
• But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
• Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
• Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
• Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word."

This is the authority of the word, not the authority of Dispensationalist teachers. Moreover, they FAIL to acknowledge the Biblical record that the Covenant with Israel has been and is being fully fulfilled in the inclusion of the Gentiles into the commonwealth of Israel. And thirdly, they fail to address how the church or congregation can be a separate people of God, separate children of God, separate from Israel when God's word said they were and are grafted into the Olive Tree representing the Covenant with Israel. They obviously are not a separate tree, but one tree all being sustained by the same root that bares them.

So then, Dispensationalism is the evangelical theological system that "DOES NOT" addresses all issues concerning the biblical covenants, Israel, and the church.

--not necessarily that every individual in the nation will constitute a child of promise, but that an entire nation will exist, consisting of those who embrace the way of Abraham's faith.

"entire nation" is where your error begins.

No, that's not true. The promise was not changed from a promise of a nation to a promise of individual people.

You misunderstood. The promise was with the REMNANT of the Old Testament congregation, Israel, AND the REMNANT of the New Testament Congregation, the Church. Not Nation Israel and not all Christian Church.

What was said is that when the nation was reduced to something less than a nation based on faith, a remnant continued to carry that faith until the nation is ultimately restored. The promise of a nation remains.

Nowhere in Scripture that says a literal nation of Israel will be restored. Show us the Scripture to see if you have an understanding, otherwise, you remain REFUTED! Continue to next post...

 

[TribulationSigns]

You're assuming you're "God's witness"

Well I am as long as I TESTIFY with HIS WORD concerning the matter. Unlike you who only make speculations.

when that has yet to be established. Self-promotion doesn't prove you're correct.

Self-promotion? Ha. The Lord judges and I am comfortable with it.

Gal 3.16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.

Paul was arguing the basis for identifying who the true descendants of Abraham were, who true Israel was. It was those who put their faith in Christ for their redemption.

Huh, so you saying that the "true" descendants of Abram is "true" Israel as long as they put their faith in Christ? So this only applies to the physical nation of Israel? Nothing is said about the Gentile? LOL!

The fact some failed by the Law did not cause God's promise to fail since His promise was not based on perfect human obedience, but rather on dependence upon Christ's grace. The mere fact a remnant of Israel exists by Grace indicates the basis by which the nation will be restored--not that every individual Jew in this fallen age will become Christian but that the nation can be restored to be a Christian nation on the basis of Grace.

Nation can be restored to be a "Christian nation" (rolling eyes).

No, Christ is *not* Israel! Paul was not redefining the Seed of Abraham as Christ, nor denying that the children of promise would be restored as a full nation. Rather, he was arguing Christ as the basis by which this would be fulfilled. If it is fulfilled in individuals, then it can also be fulfilled on behalf of the national restoration of Israel.

Looks like you are the one who denies God's Word concerning Christ.

Huh? No, Scripture does not "plainly say that Christ is Israel!"

Really? Guess you really have not read Scripture enough! Pay attention to what God says:

Hos 11:1
(1) When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Hope you can read red bold here... God's son is Israel! Either you get it or you deny it! LOL

There is a REASON why Christ is Israel. He is the TRUE ISRAEL, the faithful Israel who succeeds where old covenant Israel failed. Like ancient Israel, He came up out of Egypt, passed through the waters, and was tested in the wilderness (2:13-15; 3:13-4:11; Ex 12:40-42, 14:1-31; 16:4) Unlike old covenant Israel, however, Jesus passed the test. He is therefore worthy to be called God's Son because of who He is in His deity and because of what He accomplished in His humanity.

The good news of the Gospel tells that WE (all Elect from Old and New Testament) can be TRUE ISRAEL in CHRIST! If we are in Christ, we share in the privilege and relationship He enjoys as God's True Son. We are not sons of God by nature, rather we are sons of God by adoption. His beloved children in Christ, whether Jews or Gentile. As such, we INHERIT all of the promises given to old covenant Israel. The promises comes through Christ who is Israel! Selah!

Maybe you can go back over your post and remove some of the self-adulation and self-promotion?

Actually, you can go back and learn to post Scripture and allow it to be its own interpretation rather than your babbling speculations.

It doesn't argue your points, and it certainly doesn't look good!

Like I said, the Lord (Israel) judges and I am comfortable with it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You did not quote the verse and explain it. You just said "Abrahamic Covenant without actually show your understanding of Scripture.

I provided Scriptures without quoting it yes. It is ubiquitous, mentioned everywhere in the Scriptures. It is used generally to prove that God is following that particular chosen course throughout history. If you don't know what Abraham's Covenant is, it's time to start reading.

You did not quote verses from Roman 9-11 and explain it biblically. You just claimed that it speaks of "nation" Isreal.

If you wish to argue against Israel's national restoration, you need to read Rom 9-11.

You did not quote verses from Act 1 and explain it biblically. You believe that Paul talked about nation Israel.

Acts 1 speaks of the Disciples asking Jesus when Israel would be restored as a nation.

All of these three has been refuted.

You indicated I had not provided Scriptures, whether you agree with my interpretation or not.

As in no actual Scripture verses. Yes... NONE!

Yes, the Scripture references are there. Abraham's Covenant promises are in Genesis 12-17. Rom 9-11. Acts 1.6-7. Your disagreement with my interpretation does not mean I provided no actual Scripture verses. You can look up the references. Since you claimed to have refuted them, you obviously don't need me to quote them for you.

Oh, you believe there is a promise for "full" nation in the Middle East to be restored? Ha, I rest my case.

How is the promise of a full nation, as opposed to half a nation, a reason to "rest your case?" If I say that a country is reduced, by an enemy, to less than its needed size to function as such, are you saying that its restoration as a full country is irrational for you?

False! You got wrong Israel explains the false doctrine of Dispensationalism.

I'm not a Dispensationalist.

Not a body of Jews or a body of nation Israel and a separate body of Gentiles, but one Holy Body made up of all peoples from all over the world who serve Christ. That is who Abraham's Covenant applies to!

Abraham's Covenant requires the distinction of nations and of the nation Israel. Believers from all nations form a single body for Christ, but in terms of social units, we remain "nations." And those nations can adopt Christian constitutions and be considered "Christian nations," as promised to Abraham and to his "seed."

Colossians 3:11

• "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

There are no disqualifying elements in Christ with respect to race, gender, or nationality, nor even age. That does not mean there are no social units in Christ called "nations." Paul is arguing against *discrimination.* He is not arguing against the existence of race or nationality!

John 8:39-43

• "They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

To be a true Jew or a true member of Israel one must not only be Jewish, but he must also have faith in Christ. In other words, there are qualifications beyond simply being Jewish. One must have faith in Christ as well, to be considered a true Jew.

So then, Dispensationalism is the evangelical theological system that "DOES NOT" addresses all issues concerning the biblical covenants, Israel, and the church.

I'm not a Dispensationalist.

You misunderstood. The promise was with the REMNANT of the Old Testament congregation, Israel, AND the REMNANT of the New Testament Congregation, the Church. Not Nation Israel and not all Christian Church.

The fact nations give up their Christian faith and the Christian contingent is reduced to a minority within the nation does not mean that nations cannot adopt the Christian religion. Israel was reduced to a spiritual remnant only after the nation fell into complete apostasy.

Nowhere in Scripture that says a literal nation of Israel will be restored. Show us the Scripture to see if you have an understanding, otherwise, you remain REFUTED! Continue to next post...

I gave you the Scriptures. Look them up.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hos 11:1
(1) When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Hope you can read red bold here... God's son is Israel! Either you get it or you deny it! LOL

God is referring to Israel, the nation, as His son (with a small "s")! He is not saying Israel is Christ! In the same way as God would say King David was His son, He is calling the entire nation His son!

If this is the basis for your calling Israel "Christ" you need to learn plain English.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I provided Scriptures without quoting it yes.

LOL!!! But do you actually read it and understand it, or take "scripture" by chapter and number out of context and privately interpret it?

If you wish to argue against Israel's national restoration, you need to read Rom 9-11.

Acts 1 speaks of the Disciples asking Jesus when Israel would be restored as a nation.

How is the promise of a full nation, as opposed to half a nation, a reason to "rest your case?" If I say that a country is reduced, by an enemy, to less than its needed size to function as such, are you saying that its restoration as a full country is irrational for you?

I'm not a Dispensationalist.

The fact nations give up their Christian faith and the Christian contingent is reduced to a minority within the nation does not mean that nations cannot adopt the Christian religion. Israel was reduced to a spiritual remnant only after the nation fell into complete apostasy.

Blah, blah, blah. You are going in circles with pure speculations and private interpretations.

Now I know that you are not really a Bible student so I will have to put you on the ignore list so I won't have to read nonsense of your unbiblical speculations any more.

Take care!

 

[TribulationSigns]

God is referring to Israel, the nation, as His son (with a small "s")! He is not saying Israel is Christ! In the same way as God would say King David was His son, He is calling the entire nation His son!

Just wow! What a full denial at display! I will be praying for you.

Good riddance.

 

[Randy Kluth]

LOL!!! But do you actually read it and understand it, or take "scripture" by chapter and number out of context and privately interpret it?



Blah, blah, blah. You are going in circles with pure speculations and private interpretations.

Now I know that you are not really a Bible student so I will have to put you on the ignore list so I won't have to read nonsense of your unbiblical speculations any more.

Take care!

Yes, if you can't carry on an intelligent discussion, with a Christian attitude, you should put me on the "ignore" list. I'm here to have respectful conversations, if possible, for purposes of mutual edification or correction, or perhaps just to encourage someone.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Just wow! What a full denial at display! I will be praying for you.

Good riddance.

No, I'm quite serious. You have mis-read the passage where God calls national Israel His "son." It is to be understood with a small "s." The passage is *not* saying Israel is Christ!