The Rapture is Post-trib

[Zao is life]

The second coming happens after the tribulation and before wrath at the 6th seal,
The second advent happens at the end of wrath at the end of the 7th seal which is the 7th trumpet of wrath.

The 2nd advent cannot happen before the tribulation because the tribulation refers to the tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast.

The 2nd advent happens after the wrath, and is at the time/on the day of the 7th bowl of wrath - the Day of the LORD/Day of Christ.

 

[The Light]

The 2nd advent cannot happen after the tribulation because the tribulation refers to the tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast.

I know. The second coming, when all eyes see the coming of the Lord happens immediately after the tribulation. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The second coming happens at the 6th seal.

The 2nd advent happens after the wrath,

I know. Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives at the second advent.

and is at the time/on the day of the 7th bowl of wrath - the Day of the LORD/Day of Christ.

It is also at the time of the 7th trumpet of wrath. The 7th seal containing the trumpets is Gods wrath is the same timeframe as the bowls.

 

[The Light]

I think @The Light mistakes "the sign of the son of man" in Matthew 24 as the coming of Christ. I've explained to him before, a sign is not the same as the manifestation.

So you're telling me that Matthew 24 is not about the coming of Christ.
Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This event, the second coming, happens when the 6th seal is opened.

 

[Zao is life]

I know. The second coming, when all eyes see the coming of the Lord happens immediately after the tribulation. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The second coming happens at the 6th seal.


I know. Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives at the second advent.

It is also at the time of the 7th trumpet of wrath. The 7th seal containing the trumpets is Gods wrath is the same timeframe as the bowls.

The 7th seal is the same as the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl. The time-frame for the first 6 trumpets and bowls is before that - it's just that the scroll could not unroll for us to read about them before all the seals were loosed.

"And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.". (Revelation 8:6).

Once the seventh of seven seals was opened, the scroll was now ready to unroll, and the first thing that we see in the scroll is the seven angels who have been appointed to carry out God's judgment:

"Voices, thunderings, Lightnings, and an earthquake"

The door that had been opened in heaven for John immediately before he was made aware of the scroll's existence, allowed John to be able to see the throne of God, so that he could be shown the scroll (which was still sealed with seven seals), and John saw "lightnings and thunderings and voices" coming out from the throne (Revelation 4:5).

We read of "voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake" when God speaks: We see it in Exodus 20:18, we see it used in poetic form by David in 2 Samuel 22:14-15, and we see it again in the seventh seal, the seventh trumpet, and the seventh plague or bowl of wrath:



This 7-7-7 repetition is reminiscent of the walls of Jericho falling the seventh time the people marched around the city on the seventh day, when the seventh trumpet sounded (Joshua 6:1-20).

There were seven priests blowing seven trumpets when the walls of Jericho fell. This is why we see the seven angels with seven trumpets when the seventh seal has been opened, and "the cities of the nations fell" when the seventh of seven angels poured out his bowl of wrath. It's also the 7th of 7 trumpets.

 

[Zao is life]

I know. The second coming, when all eyes see the coming of the Lord happens immediately after the tribulation. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Yes. I should have said it cannot happen before the tribulation.

 

[Davy]

Zechariah 14:5 says Jesus comes with His saints when He comes to destroy the armies gathered against Jerusalem. So does Revelation 19:11, 14 & 16, and so does Revelation 17:14.

How can the saints come down with Him before being snatched away and taken up to be with Him?
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Zechariah 14:5
And you shall flee to the valley of My mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. And the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with you.

You ask "how", and I don't think you are aware of what you ask, because the "how" can get very deep into Bible Scripture, specifically what Apostle Paul taught about our created makeup, and the type body of the world to come with the resurrection.

On the LAST DAY of this present world, which will be the "day of the Lord" when Lord Jesus comes to gather His faithful saints, many events will culminate very quickly on that day. God's consuming fire is going to burn man's works off this earth at an instant, and all alive on earth will be 'changed' at the twinkling of an eye, their flesh cast off revealing their spirit bodies. That will include the wicked still alive on that day also. All will see Christ coming in the clouds bringing the asleep saints with Him. And on His way to the Mount of Olives with those, His saints still alive will be "caught up" (Greek harpazo) to Him and to the resurrected asleep saints Jesus brings with Him from Heaven.

Many brethren don't understand about that 'change' on the "last trump" which Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15, nor about the idea of Death swallowed up in Victory, which Paul was pulling from Isaiah 25 about that, which involves ALL NATIONS.

On that same LAST DAY, Christ will defeat Satan's host on earth. Not all of the army out of the northern quarters that will come up against Jerusalem on the LAST DAY will be destroyed. Zechariah 14 reveals leftovers that will be made to come up to Jerusalem from year to year and worship The KING, and keep the feast of tabernacles. So the unsaved nations will still exist then under Christ Jesus. And Christ's faithful will reign with Him, some of us as priests, some of us as kings. And one of the jobs of the priests is to teach the people God's Word and the difference between the clean and unclean, and the holy and the profane.

 

[Davy]

Nowhere does this speak of Jesus landing on earth. It says we meet the Lord in the air and forever be with Him. Making a post rib rapture is done by combining similar words for dissimilar events and making them one.

But instead of useless debating here, I will say this. Time will prove who is correct in their understanding and who is not. And when that trumpet finally does toot, we all are gonna scoot!

That is funny. What you are stating is exactly what the false Pre-trib Rapture theory doctors do. The omit relevant Scripture with attempting to ISOLATE Paul's 1 Thessalonians 4 to 'their' personal views.

Can't do that attempted isolation with God's written Word. Even Enoch, the 7th from the man Adam, spoke of Christ's future coming with ten thousands of His saints, per Jude 14-15. The event of Christ's future coming is prophetically witnessed all throughout The Bible.

And one of the main reasons Zechariah 14 is very relevant to the day of Christ's future return with His elect saints to this earth, is because that event is LINKED to the "day of the Lord", which is the LAST DAY of this present world.

Your false pre-trib rapture theory doctors instead lie, and wrongly teach that "day of the Lord" happens prior... to the "great tribulation". They lie.

 

[The Light]

The 7th seal is the same as the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl.

Absolutely impossible. The 7th seal contains the 7th trumpet.

This is an illogical conclusion that has led you astray.

The time-frame for the first 6 trumpets and bowls is before that - it's just that the scroll could not unroll for us to read about them before all the seals were loosed.

I don't know exactly what you are saying. However, sounds like another illogical conclusion.

"And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.". (Revelation 8:6).

Once the seventh of seven seals was opened, the scroll was now ready to unroll, and the first thing that we see in the scroll is the seven angels who have been appointed to carry out God's judgment:

"Voices, thunderings, Lightnings, and an earthquake"

The door that had been opened in heaven for John immediately before he was made aware of the scroll's existence, allowed John to be able to see the throne of God, so that he could be shown the scroll (which was still sealed with seven seals), and John saw "lightnings and thunderings and voices" coming out from the throne (Revelation 4:5).

We read of "voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake" when God speaks: We see it in Exodus 20:18, we see it used in poetic form by David in 2 Samuel 22:14-15, and we see it again in the seventh seal, the seventh trumpet, and the seventh plague or bowl of wrath:

View attachment 36086

Whoever is teaching you this is totally without understanding. The first four seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24. The fifth seal is the great tribulation. The sixth seal is the coming of Jesus for a harvest which occurs immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God. The seventh seal is the wrath of God. The 7th seal contains the 7 trumpets of wrath. This is the same timeframe as the 7 bowls of wrath.

This 7-7-7 repetition is reminiscent of the walls of Jericho falling the seventh time the people marched around the city on the seventh day, when the seventh trumpet sounded (Joshua 6:1-20).

There were seven priests blowing seven trumpets when the walls of Jericho fell. This is why we see the seven angels with seven trumpets when the seventh seal has been opened, and "the cities of the nations fell" when the seventh of seven angels poured out his bowl of wrath. It's also the 7th of 7 trumpets.

There is no 7-7-7. That's total made up misunderstanding. There are 7 seals but the 7th seal contains the 7 trumpets.

The seals happen in order with the 6th seal being the coming of Jesus for a harvest. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Matthew 24: 29-31. They all return to heaven for the marriage supper and the wrath of God begins. The wrath of God is the 7th seal, which contains the 7th trumpets of wrath. The 7 bowls are the same timeframe as the 7 trumpets.

Why would you make the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal which is BEFORE WRATH, the same coming of Jesus at the end of wrath. So Jesus comes both at the 6th seal and at the end of the trumpets.

 

[The Light]

Yes. I should have said it cannot happen before the tribulation.

I said...........
The second coming happens after the tribulation and before wrath at the 6th seal,
The second advent happens at the end of wrath at the end of the 7th seal which is the 7th trumpet of wrath.

When the second coming happens, Jesus remains in the clouds for the harvest and returns to heaven for the marriage supper. Hence, the great multitude in heaven after the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

The second advert is when Jesus returns to the earth. This is at the end of the trumpets or the end of the vials.........Armageddon etc.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The first and second comings were completed without touching the ground. That comes after the coming which is an arrival and he arrives in the air.

are you saying Jesus' first coming he levitated while doing all the gospels have written? Proof?
And when did Jesus second coming occur?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

JESUS does not need to be on the ground for the Resurrection.

The Major Emphasis of JESUS being in the clouds above the earth for the Resurrection is...........think here and let me know - Peace

but as I am not talking about HIs resurrection, that is an irrelevant point. but Jesus did spend 50 days walking the earth after His resurrection.

 

[ewq1938]

are you saying Jesus' first coming he levitated while doing all the gospels have written?

No. He was a baby and therefore would not have been put on the ground at first.

And when did Jesus second coming occur?

It hasn't yet. Isn't that obvious? Full preterism is heresy.

 

[ewq1938]

Absolutely impossible. The 7th seal contains the 7th trumpet.

This is an illogical conclusion that has led you astray.

You both are wrong. The 7th seal is the 30 min of silence. It is not part of the trumps, and not happening at the same time as the 7th trump and 7th vial.

 

[David in NJ]

but as I am not talking about HIs resurrection, that is an irrelevant point. but Jesus did spend 50 days walking the earth after His resurrection.

He spent days on earth after His Resurrection because it was the BEGINNING of the Gospel to the world.

His Second Coming is the Resurrection(and rapture) of the Just and to bring His Wrath down upon the devil worshippers.

 

[David in NJ]

Nowhere does this speak of Jesus landing on earth. It says we meet the Lord in the air and forever be with Him. Making a post rib rapture is done by combining similar words for dissimilar events and making them one.

But instead of useless debating here, I will say this. Time will prove who is correct in their understanding and who is not. And when that trumpet finally does toot, we all are gonna scoot!

Once the Resurrection and subsequent rapture is complete, then the LORD of Hosts and His Armies(Rev ch19) descend to earth.
Zechariah chapter 14

 

[The Light]

You both are wrong. The 7th seal is the 30 min of silence. It is not part of the trumps, and not happening at the same time as the 7th trump and 7th vial.

Total baloney.

The 7th seal BEGINS with 30 min of silence and contains the 7 trumpets of Gods wrath.

 

[ewq1938]

Total baloney.

The 7th seal BEGINS with 30 min of silence and contains the 7 trumpets of Gods wrath.

No, the seal is only about the 30 min of silence else someone could errantly claim EVERYTHING else in the book of Rev is "the 7th seal".

 

[The Light]

No, the seal is only about the 30 min of silence else someone could errantly claim EVERYTHING else in the book of Rev is "the 7th seal".

Yeah. That terrible 7th seal and it's 30 minutes of silence in heaven. Those trumpets are nothing.

What in your mind can possibly think this is correct? I am unable to process how you could possibly conclude this and believe it.

 

[ewq1938]

Yeah. That terrible 7th seal and it's 30 minutes of silence in heaven. Those trumpets are nothing.

What in your mind can possibly think this is correct? I am unable to process how you could possibly conclude this and believe it.

I know.

 

[Zao is life]

You both are wrong. The 7th seal is the 30 min of silence. It is not part of the trumps, and not happening at the same time as the 7th trump and 7th vial.

No one seals a blank scroll. The scroll and what is happening in the scroll was written before it was sealed.

Each seal opens a part (one part of) the scroll.

So each seal is a vision telling us more about what is written in the scroll. They need to be loosened - all seven of them - before the scroll can unroll. We can only then begin to read about the trumpets and vials that were already written in the scroll before it was sealed.

The seal is not "happening". The seals do not "happen". What was written in the scroll before it was sealed is what happens.

Each seal when it is loosened is a vision that opens one part of the scroll - and what is happening and written about in the scroll is not "happening" in the seals that seal the scroll. The actual things unfolding - the contents of the scroll - are not written into the seals that seal it. They are hidden in the seals.

You defy the meaning that the symbol of a sealed scroll is meant to convey, and in the process you are ignoring the rest of what John sees when the 7th seal is opened and concentrate only on what it says about the half an hour and the trumpets, believing that the trumpets now come afterwards - as though the scroll had not already been written before it was sealed.

The hour of trial that Jesus told His churches is coming ends with the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl. That judgement is hidden in the 7th seal.

Heaven will be silent for half of the hour of trial.

Babylon the great will be destroyed in 1 hour. The ten kings that destroy Babylon the great will reign with the beast ascended from the abyss for 1 hour.

How long is the beast given authority to continue?

What's half of that hour? Will it be the first half or the last half?