The Rapture is Post-trib

[David in NJ]

Thanks you too brother.

I'm going to read 1 Thess 1 again now.

Some people on here(not you) get upset when you say to them please read x,y,z....from the bible.

i enjoy reading scripture, over and over again!

 

[David in NJ]

OK you've lost me on the 7 - I take it you mean 7 mentions of His 2nd coming? I've noticed that Revelation 10 is in-between the 6th and 7th trumpets, so I take it to be like a seal (not a seal but like a seal) that's being opened by way of introduction to the 7th trumpet:

5 Then the angel I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven
6 and swore by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, and the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, "There will be no more delay!
7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to blow his trumpet, the mystery of God is completed, just as he has proclaimed to his servants the prophets."

So that introduces the 7th trumpet, but following this we are told about the 1,260 days that lead up to the sounding of the 7th trumpet, before it sounds.

I believe chapter 11 is telling us that Pharaoh the beast will go to war against the saints (Revelation 13:7), increasing the tribulation of God's people in Egypt the world while Moses and Aaron God's two witnesses prophesy. The 7th trumpet and 7th bowl of wrath is the destruction of Pharaoh's the beast's armies and the redemption of God's people, on the same Day of the LORD, who are saved by the blood of the Lamb from the final plague of death.

God's people remain in Egypt the world while the last plagues are being poured out, but are kept from being harmed by them:

Revelation 9:4
4 And they were commanded not to hurt the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads.

Revelation 13
8 And all dwelling on the earth will worship it, those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man has an ear, let him hear.
10 He who leads into captivity will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed by a sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 16
2 And the first went and poured out his vial on the earth. And a bad and grievous sore fell on the men who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshiped his image.

View attachment 36037

Revelation 3
10 "Because you have kept [tēréō] the word of My patience, I also will keep [tēréō] you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world, to try those who dwell upon the earth."

John 17
6 "I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave to Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have kept [τηρησω tēréō: guarded from loss or injury by keeping their eye upon and preserving] Your word."

14 I have given them Your Word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep [tēréō] them from the evil."

Revelation 3
10 "Because you have kept [tēréō] the word of My patience, I also will keep [tēréō] you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world, to try those who dwell upon the earth."

[StrongsGreek 5083]
tereo tay-reh'-o from teros (a watch; perhaps akin to 2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from 5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from 2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), i.e. to note (a prophecy; figuratively, to fulfil a command); by implication, to detain (in custody; figuratively, to maintain); by extension, to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively, to keep unmarried); by extension, to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively, to keep unmarried):--hold fast, keep(- er), (pre-, re-)serve, watch.

Revelation 16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial on the great river Euphrates. And its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the rising of the sun might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are spirits of demons, working miracles, which go forth to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that day, the great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

When He comes, the resurrection and the rapture occurs. The destruction of the beast's armies follows, and the beast & false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. Satan is bound for 1,000 years.

The 7th trumpet and 7th bowl of wrath is the destruction of Pharaoh's the beast's armies and the redemption of God's people, on the same Day of the LORD, who are saved by the blood of the Lamb from the final plague of death.

- but this is what I see.

So, far from there being a pre-trib rapture ...

Jesus will guard those who have guarded the Word of His patience.

@David in NJ The seven last plagues are also called the bowls of wrath - but the 7th plague is also the fullness and finality of the wrath.

God's destruction of the beast, his armies and his kingdom does not occur before then. It's the deliverance of God's people from Egypt - the type tells us about the anti-type. The Revelation is saturated with type & anti-type, because it's the culmination of it all.

You said: "I take it you mean 7 mentions of His 2nd coming?"

YES, 7 mentions of His Second Coming.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You said: "I take it you mean 7 mentions of His 2nd coming?"

YES, 7 mentions of His Second Coming.

I mostly agree and appreciate that you see the parallels in the book. So, which verses/passages do you see as mentioning the second coming? I'll try to guess. I'll say Rev 6:12-17, Rev 10:6-7, Rev 11:11-12, Rev 11:15-18, Rev 14:14-20, Rev 16:17-20 and Rev 19:11-21? As an Amil I would include Revelation 20:9 as well.

 

[David in NJ]

Your error is thinking that the coming of Jesus in Revelation 6 compares to Rev 10:5-7 and Ch 11 and Chaper 19. The coming of Jesus in Revelation 6, the second coming compares only to Revelation 14 and Matthew 24:29-31. Jesus remains in the clouds at the second coming and returns to heaven with those gathered at the harvest.

Rev 10:5-7, Rev 11 and Rev 19 are the "second advent" when Jesus sets His feet on the mount of Olives.

Revelation repeats the Second Coming such as we see in 6:9-17 and 10:5-7 and ch11 and ch14 and ch19
i believe there are 7 Iterations of His Second Coming in Revelation

They are intended NOT to match but to only speak of His Second Coming with each account giving it's own VIEW for us to SEE.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation repeats the Second Coming such as we see in 6:9-17 and 10:5-7 and ch11 and ch14 and ch19
i believe there are 7 Iterations of His Second Coming in Revelation

They are intended NOT to match but to only speak of His Second Coming with each account giving it's own VIEW for us to SEE.

Make it 8 iterations by including Revelation 20:9. Come on, you can do it!

 

[David in NJ]

Make it 8 iterations by including Revelation 20:9. Come on, you can do it!

The 8th is not His Second Coming but it is the 8th expose(ex-po-say) to His Dominion over satan and those who follow him.

The number 8 in the Bible symbolizes 'New Beginning'.

We SEE the New Beginning only takes place AFTER satan and his hordes are finally destroyed by FIRE = Rev 20:7-9

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[The Light]

Revelation repeats the Second Coming such as we see in 6:9-17 and 10:5-7 and ch11 and ch14 and ch19
i believe there are 7 Iterations of His Second Coming in Revelation

They are intended NOT to match but to only speak of His Second Coming with each account giving it's own VIEW for us to SEE.

As I said. Rev 6, Matthew 24 and Revelation 14 speak of the second coming, when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. He remains in the clouds.

Revelation 10, 11 and 19 speak of the second advent when Jesus returns to the earth.

It's easy enough to prove.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The word says that Jesus comes IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION and BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD.

And we know that Jesus comes after the wrath of God.

So many of the blind cannot see what is right in front of their face. The truth does not agree with their religion. It's time for people to wake up. The time is short.

 

[ewq1938]

I agree. Just a side-note on the word harpazo, there are actually a few verses using the word "harpazo" which seems to mean "a snatching a way":-​

Yes, the word is used many times but only one time is it used for the rapture of the surviving saints. I was speaking of "The Rapture" as opposed to other types of raptures. As I said, there is only one passage where the Greek word for rapture is used for The Rapture and Pre-trib doesn't even cite it in their prooftexts.

 

[David in NJ]

As I said. Rev 6, Matthew 24 and Revelation 14 speak of the second coming, when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. He remains in the clouds.

Revelation 10, 11 and 19 speak of the second advent when Jesus returns to the earth.

It's easiest enough to prove.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The word says that Jesus comes IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION and BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD.

And we know that Jesus comes after the wrath of God.

So many of the blind cannot see what is right in front of their face. The truth does not agree with their religion. It's time for people to wake up. The time is short.

They are all the SAME - One Time - Second Coming of Christ

Once JESUS leaves the Right Hand of the Father there is no turning back UP to Heaven.

You can have a shot at it = see if you can find a scripture that says HE descends from Heaven and turns around and goes back UP.

We already know that HE descended in the First Coming as the Suffering Servant and then Ascended back to the Father.

So you need to find Prophecy and Declaration by the LORD of 'Descending and Returning back to Heaven' at this juncture of Time.

 

[The Light]

They are all the SAME - One Time - Second Coming of Christ

Once JESUS leaves the Right Hand of the Father there is no turning back UP to Heaven.

You can have a shot at it = see if you can find a scripture that says HE descends from Heaven and turns around and goes back UP.

We already know that HE descended in the First Coming as the Suffering Servant and then Ascended back to the Father.

So you need to find Prophecy and Declaration by the LORD of 'Descending and Returning back to Heaven' at this juncture of Time.

I just showed that Jesus comes at the 6th seal......................BEFORE WRATH.

And everyone knows He comes after wrath. If you can't understand the obvious that is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars how can possibly understand anything complex?

I truly think God just leaves people in blindness on scripture

 

[ewq1938]

I just showed that Jesus comes at the 6th seal......................BEFORE WRATH.

And everyone knows He comes after wrath. If you can't understand the obvious that is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars how can possibly understand anything complex?

I truly think God just leaves people in blindness on scripture

Blind people often say things like that though. Jesus doesn't come at the opening of the 6th seal anymore than he came when talking about his coming in Matthew 24. Both are descriptions of future events.

PROPHECY:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

How do we know this is only prophecy? Jesus continues to sit and teach. He doesn't get up, go to heaven and then descend into the clouds in the second coming.


PROPHECY:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

How do we know this is only prophecy? Jesus continues to open the next seal. He doesn't stop opening the seals, leave heaven and then descend into the clouds in the second coming.

ACTUAL EVENT HAPPENING:
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

John was there in the future and watched the second coming happen. Jesus isn't teaching, or opening seals. He is only completing the second coming.

 

[The Light]

Blind people often say things like that though. Jesus doesn't come at the opening of the 6th seal anymore than he came when talking about his coming in Matthew 24. Both are descriptions of future events.

Stop it. Are you kidding? All prophecy is description of future events.

Talk about nonsense.

 

[The Light]

PROPHECY:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

How do we know this is only prophecy? Jesus continues to sit and teach. He doesn't get up, go to heaven and then descend into the clouds in the second coming.


PROPHECY:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

How do we know this is only prophecy? Jesus continues to open the next seal. He doesn't stop opening the seals, leave heaven and then descend into the clouds in the second coming.

ACTUAL EVENT HAPPENING:
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

John was there in the future and watched the second coming happen. Jesus isn't teaching, or opening seals. He is only completing the second coming.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest. SEE REVELATION 14. He remains in the clouds. All return to heaven for the marriage supper..........hence the great multitude of Revelation 7. After the marriage supper Jesus returns with the armies of heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest.

Nope. Jesus is busy opening seals not harvesting plus there is not a harvest even mentioned anywhere in the 6th seal. You are employing eisegesis to insert things you believe into a text.

 

[The Light]

Nope. Jesus is busy opening seals not harvesting plus there is not a harvest even mentioned anywhere in the 6th seal.

Here is the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It appears that you are unable to realize that the signs of the sun, moon and stars MARK this event at the 6th seal. How can you not understand this?

You are employing eisegesis to insert things you believe into a text.

So you pretend that the Great Multitude is not in heaven after the 6th seal. Do we skip those verses or is the great multitude the two candlesticks or something like that?

Here is the great tribulation (which is the 5th seal) in Revelation 14
Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal for a harvest.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Here is the wrath of God happening which is the 7th seal.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

It all boils down to, you have very little clue what you are reading.

 

[ewq1938]

It appears that you are unable to realize that the signs of the sun, moon and stars MARK this event at the 6th seal. How can you not understand this?

I obviously understand the same language is used denoting the same event. What it doesn't show is the events happening when the seal is opened. That's where you err. You keep repeating this strawman fallacy as if it means anything. Everyone knows the 6th seal is describing the second coming. That doesn't mean it's happening right then. "How can YOU not understand this?"

 

[David in NJ]

I just showed that Jesus comes at the 6th seal......................BEFORE WRATH.

And everyone knows He comes after wrath. If you can't understand the obvious that is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars how can possibly understand anything complex?

I truly think God just leaves people in blindness on scripture

Revelation reveals to us 7 Iterations of the Second Coming of Christ

 

[The Light]

Revelation reveals to us 7 Iterations of the Second Coming of Christ

Revelation reveals that the "second coming", when Jesus remains in the clouds, and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth happens immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God at the opening of the 6th seal.

Revelation also reveals that the "second advent" when Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives occur at the end of wrath.

 

[David in NJ]

Revelation reveals to us 7 Iterations of the Second Coming of Christ

I just showed that Jesus comes at the 6th seal......................BEFORE WRATH.

And everyone knows He comes after wrath. If you can't understand the obvious that is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars how can possibly understand anything complex?

I truly think God just leaves people in blindness on scripture

So you need to find Prophecy and Declaration by the LORD of 'Descending and Returning back to Heaven' at this juncture of Time.

The 6th Seal is Prophecy of His Second Coming and there is no return to Heaven.

 

[David in NJ]

Revelation reveals that the "second coming", when Jesus remains in the clouds, and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth happens immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God at the opening of the 6th seal.

Revelation also reveals that the "second advent" when Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives occur at the end of wrath.

So you need to find Prophecy and Declaration by the LORD of 'Descending and Returning back to Heaven' at this juncture of Time.

The 6th Seal is Prophecy of His Second Coming and there is no return to Heaven.

The entire Scriptures only speak of One Second Coming of Christ = this is the Repeating Story in Revelation.