The Rapture is Post-trib

[Davy]

I don't ever think of a difference between the name "Jesus" and the word "God", which is why I wrote it like that.

Psalm 33:6
By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.
(Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

PS: I do see and believe in the distinction in scripture and in the words of Jesus which is described by the church as the "Trinity".

That was actually one of the points Apostle John was making in 1 John 4 about Jesus being God.

We all know, and even the scribes and Pharisees knew, that Jesus of Nazareth came in the flesh. So the idea of Jesus being born in a woman's flesh womb like us is a moot point, and not really John's Message here...

What Apostle John is actually pointing out is that GOD came in the flesh as Jesus Christ!

Therefore, those who confess that Jesus Christ, "Emmanuel" (God with us), is GOD having come in the flesh, show they are of God. And those who refuse to believe GOD came in the flesh as Jesus Christ, are not of God.

1 John 4:2-3
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
KJV

 

[Zao is life]

Exactly. The return of Christ at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God. At the end wrath the Lord will return for Armageddon and to set up His kingdom.


I agree. He will claim to be God.

You misread "For the day of His wrath has come". Corpses will not be trying to hide from the wrath.

The wrath is the 7th and final plague of judgement. The 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl. The kings of the earth in the 6th seal will not have any more time to be trying to hide from it if it's already coming upon them.

 

[Zao is life]

The 6th Seal shows us the Second Coming of Christ.

Yep. Corpses will not be trying to hide from the wrath.

 

[Zao is life]

That was actually one of the points Apostle John was making in 1 John 4 about Jesus being God.

We all know, and even the scribes and Pharisees knew, that Jesus of Nazareth came in the flesh. So the idea of Jesus being born in a woman's flesh womb like us is a moot point, and not really John's Message here...

What Apostle John is actually pointing out is that GOD came in the flesh as Jesus Christ!

Therefore, those who confess that Jesus Christ, "Emmanuel" (God with us), is GOD having come in the flesh, show they are of God. And those who refuse to believe GOD came in the flesh as Jesus Christ, are not of God.

1 John 4:2-3
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
KJV

Yes, of course.

1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among nations, believed on in the world, and received up into glory.

2 Cor 5:19 whereas God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and putting the word of reconciliation in us.​

Modern translations deny the word "God" in "God was manifest in the flesh" which is translated from the Received Text. Modern translations prefer the words taken from the oldest manuscripts (all three of them fragments of text).

 

[The Light]

You misread "For the day of His wrath has come". Corpses will not be trying to hide from the wrath.

No. You misunderstand what you are reading.

Jesus has to come for the second coming at the 6th seal. All eyes see this coming as he remains in the clouds. The world knows that the time wrath has come.
At the end of wrath Jesus returns for the second advent to set up His kingdom.

The wrath is the 7th and final plague of judgement. The 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl. The kings of the earth in the 6th seal will not have any more time to be trying to hide from it if it's already coming upon them.

7-7-7 looks so pretty. However, since the 7 seal contains the 7 trumpets of wrath, it just doesn't fly.

Has wrath happened at the 6th seal? No. Jesus has come for a harvest at the 6th seal and remains in the clouds. All return to heaven for the marriage supper which is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7, which is after the 6th seal.

These old teachings that have been passed down are incorrect. The book was sealed until the time of the end, which is now.

 

[ewq1938]

Has wrath happened at the 6th seal? No.

You aren't even going by the text of the 6th seal. You have made up your own version of the 6th seal which doesn't match what is actually there:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


The Light: "Has wrath happened at the 6th seal? No."
The bible: "For the great day of his wrath is come."

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

6th seal: "his wrath is come"
7th trump: "thy wrath is come"

 

[David in NJ]

Exactly. The Second Coming of Christ, where He remains in the clouds at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God.

At the end of wrath the Lord will return to earth, the Second Advent, for Armageddon and to set up His kingdom.

Now that you aknowledged the 6th Seal as it truly is = you prove that pre-trib is a complete lie!

 

[The Light]

You aren't even going by the text of the 6th seal. You have made up your own version of the 6th seal which doesn't match what is actually there:


The Light: "Has wrath happened at the 6th seal? No."
The bible: "For the great day of his wrath is come."

No. Wrath has not come at the 6th seal. Wrath will begin when the 7th seal is opened.

Everyone sees Jesus in the clouds for the harvest. They know that the time of wrath has come.

6th seal: "his wrath is come"
7th trump: "thy wrath is come"

And you let this choice of words override what written. That is because you don't understand what you are reading.

Wrath will not begin until the 7th seal opened. And wrath will be over when the seventh trumpet begins to sounds. And yet you think wrath is not over when the 7th trumpet sounds even though the Word says that Christ has set up His kingdom on earth.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[The Light]

Now that you aknowledged the 6th Seal as it truly is = you prove that pre-trib is a complete lie!

So then you agree that Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Then all return to heaven for the marriage supper.

So yes. Second Coming, 6th seal, Jesus in the clouds, harvest time. Wrath about to begin.

Second Advent, Jesus returns for Armageddon toward the end of the trumpets, and sets up His kingdom on earth at the 7th trumpet.

The truth of the pretrib rapture has nothing to do with these two comings of the Lord.

 

[David in NJ]

So then you agree that Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Then all return to heaven for the marriage supper.

So yes. Second Coming, 6th seal, Jesus in the clouds, harvest time. Wrath about to begin.

Second Advent, Jesus returns for Armageddon toward the end of the trumpets, and sets up His kingdom on earth at the 7th trumpet.

The truth of the pretrib rapture has nothing to do with these two comings of the Lord.

There is no truth in pre-trib!

And you prove that every time you post about it!

Please read 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians and Matthew ch24 and Acts chapters 1 & 2

Purge yourself from the leaven of the pharisees!

 

[marks]

i CARE so much that i point you and Jericho back to CHRIST and HIS Words fully knowing that pre-trib will hate me and will attack.

The BEST approach is the TRUTH approach = believe the words of God and reject the words of men.

Pray, submit, Believe, receive = same proven approach we all must follow

You have to lie about others to make your point. Doesn't that mean anything to you??

Yes, I completely agree, the best, the only valid approach is truth and honesty. And you lie and denigrate and refuse to address the passages of Scripture I've shared with you.

I pray that God will open your eyes to these things.

Much love!

 

[Jericho]

#1 - No one will know when that EXACT hour or day begins EXCEPT the FATHER for the AC and the 2 Witnesses

#2 - You are calling the LORD Jesus a liar when you say "there is no post-trib verse in the bible"

#3 - You are calling the Apostles liars as well.

#4 - You are calling the OT Prophets liars also.

#5 - Pre-trib rapture is the LIE = now it is your choice

Direct Post-Trib Statement from the LORD = Matthew chapter 24

Direct Post-Trib statement from the Apostle John = 1 John chapter 2

Direct Post-Trib statement from OT Prophet Daniel = Daniel chapter 9 and 12:1-3

How could you not know the exact hour? Matthew 24:29-31 says Jesus returns "immediately after the tribulation". If you know the Great Tribulation is 3.5 years and begins with the Abomination of Desolation and the death of the two witnesses, you CAN know when the tribulation ends and when the Second Comming\rapture occurs. And how could Jesus come like a thief in the night if you know the rapture is about to happen?

I am not calling anyone a liar, but I am questioning your assertions. You gave chapters but no specific verses or context (not to my response anyway). By the way, I haven't even mentioned anything about pre-trib.

 

[David in NJ]

You have to lie about others to make your point. Doesn't that mean anything to you??

Yes, I completely agree, the best, the only valid approach is truth and honesty. And you lie and denigrate and refuse to address the passages of Scripture I've shared with you.

I pray that God will open your eyes to these things.

Much love!

@marks, Question: Do you now want to go down the road of hypocrisy???

All your posts were addressed by the Word of God until you started claiming falsehoods.

Below is a PERFECT example of how you run from the Truth, for you never addressed that which addresses the error of pre-trib.

The Bride of Christ

This Thread is for identifying from Scripture who the Bride of Christ is. The Bride of Christ are the Disciples of Christ = John 3:25-29 Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[marks]

God's destruction of the beast, his armies and his kingdom does not occur before then. It's the deliverance of God's people from Egypt - the type tells us about the anti-type. The Revelation is saturated with type & anti-type, because it's the culmination of it all.

Zechariah 14:4-5 KJV
4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5) And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Compare to . . .

Exodus 14:21-28 KJV
21) And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.
22) And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.
23) And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh's horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.
24) And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians,
25) And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians.
26) And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen.
27) And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea.
28) And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

Revelation 14:20 KJV
20) And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Your thoughts?

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

How could you not know the exact hour? Matthew 24:29-31 says Jesus returns "immediately after the tribulation". If you know the Great Tribulation is 3.5 years and begins with the Abomination of Desolation and the death of the two witnesses, you CAN know when the tribulation ends and when the Second Comming\rapture occurs. And how could Jesus come like a thief in the night if you know the rapture is about to happen?

I am not calling anyone a liar, but I am questioning your assertions. You gave chapters but no specific verses or context (not to my response anyway). By the way, I haven't even mentioned anything about pre-trib.

Day or Hour = no one knows

In Order for you to know the End = you first must know the Beginning.

#1. - The Scripture does not tell us the exact time(Day/Hour) of the beginning of the End concerning the revealing of the Antichrist.

#2. - JESUS said HE will shorten the days.

LOGIC 101 =If we cannot determine the exact start time, Day and Hour, and now add the VARIABLE of shortening those days:
It becomes impossible to know the exact Hour/Day of His Coming.

BEWARE the leaven of the pharisees who love to add their own words upon Gods words.

Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.

 

[marks]

@marks, you now want to go down the road of hypocrisy???

We shouldn't go any further I think. The thread is a record of what is real. I've got plenty of unanswered posts if you ever want to have a real discussion about this. But this is very unhealthy, so, you can reply to what I've already written to you. Or not. Your choice.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

We shouldn't go any further I think. The thread is a record of what is real. I've got pleny of unanswered posts if you ever want to have a real discussion about this. But this is very unhealthy, so, you can reply to what I've already written to you. Or not. Your choice.

Much love!

SEE = exactly what i stated is TRUE and confirmed by your response!

 

[marks]

SEE = exactly what i stated is TRUE and confirmed by your response!

What in the world are you talking about?

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

How could you not know the exact hour? Matthew 24:29-31 says Jesus returns "immediately after the tribulation". If you know the Great Tribulation is 3.5 years and begins with the Abomination of Desolation and the death of the two witnesses, you CAN know when the tribulation ends and when the Second Comming\rapture occurs. And how could Jesus come like a thief in the night if you know the rapture is about to happen?

I am not calling anyone a liar, but I am questioning your assertions. You gave chapters but no specific verses or context (not to my response anyway). By the way, I haven't even mentioned anything about pre-trib.

Here are some very important Scriptures for you to know and love.

The Bride of Christ

This Thread is for identifying from Scripture who the Bride of Christ is. The Bride of Christ are the Disciples of Christ = John 3:25-29 Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Zao is life]

So then you agree that Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Then all return to heaven for the marriage supper.

So yes. Second Coming, 6th seal, Jesus in the clouds, harvest time. Wrath about to begin.

It's the 7th of 7 bowls of wrath about to begin. It's also the 7th trumpet about to sound, and because you are talking about harvest time being the 6th seal, it's also the events that are hidden in the 7th seal that are about to begin. 7th seal, 7th trumpet, 7th bowl. 7-7-7.

You're so close to the understanding of it. Yet so far - because of your belief in a "pretrib" rapture.

It's a pre-wrath rapture - and not even a pre-first 6 plagues rapture. The 6th seal and the 6th plague/bowl of wrath and the 6th trumpet are taking place at the same time. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, "which God gave to Him to declare to His servants things which must shortly come to pass" (Rev.1:1), is saturated with types and anti-types so that His saints, i.e those who have ears to hear what He is saying, will understand.




Revelation 16
14 For they are spirits of demons, working miracles, which go forth to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that day, the great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!
18 And voices and thunders and lightnings occurred. And there was a great earthquake, such as has not been since men were on the earth, so mighty and so great an earthquake.
19 And the great city came to be into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the anger of His wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and mountains were not found.
21 And a great hail, as the size of a talent, came down out of the heaven on men. And men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague of it was exceedingly great.

The 6th bowl is spoken about in the 6th seal and the 6th trumpet. The 7th bowl in the 7th seal and 7th trumpet. The trumpets and bowls do not follow the loosening of the 7th seal. The scroll was written before it was sealed. Each seal unveils a part of what is written in the scroll.

There were seven priests blowing seven trumpets when the walls of Jericho fell, and they fell when the 7th trumpet sounded, the 7th time the Israelite tribes marched around the city, on the 7th of 7 days.

This is why we see the seven angels with seven trumpets when the seventh seal has been opened, and "the cities of the nations fell" when the seventh of seven angels poured out his bowl of wrath.

The seven angels have been appointed to carry out God's judgment:

"Voices, thunderings, Lightnings, and an earthquake"​

The door that had been opened in heaven for John immediately before he was made aware of the scroll's existence, allowed John to be able to see the throne of God, so that he could be shown the scroll (which was still sealed with seven seals), and John saw "lightnings and thunderings and voices" coming out from the throne (Revelation 4:5).

We read of "voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake" when God speaks: We see it in Exodus 20:18, we see it used in poetic form by David in 2 Samuel 22:14-15, and we see it again in the seventh seal, the seventh trumpet, and the seventh plague or bowl of wrath:



The scroll that had already been written before it was sealed unrolls once the 7th seal has been loosened.

Second Advent, Jesus returns for Armageddon toward the end of the trumpets, and sets up His kingdom on earth at the 7th trumpet.

The truth of the pretrib rapture has nothing to do with these two comings of the Lord.

The falsehood of the pretrib rapture lies in the fact that neither Jesus not His apostles ever called God's coming judgment of the world "tribulation". They called it wrath.
​

TRIBULATION OF APOSTLES OR CHRISTIANS:- ​

Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14.
​

GREAT TRIBULATION
[Greek: mégas thlîpsis]
Mentioned only three times in the New Testament:-​

First mention: The Olivet Discourse: Matthew 24:21-22 (Parallel: Mark 13:19-20) *

"for then shall be mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be.
And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened." (Also see Matthew 24:9).

"And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31).

Third mention: Revelation 7:13-14: "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Second mention: Revelation 2:21: "Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds."

* Luke 21:23 uses the words great distress and wrath to describe what was to come upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem (not the word tribulation):

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress [anánkē] in the land and wrath [orgḗ] on this people."
​

PERSECUTION, TRIBULATION, & GREAT TRIBULATION​

Persecution of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Persecution of "the woman" who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13
​

TRIBULATION OF NON-CHRISTIANS​

There are only two verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.
2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.
​

SAVED FROM THE COMING WRATH​

Romans 5:8-10 "But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) through Him.
For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

We are saved from the coming wrath, not from "the tribulation".

Hebrews 9:28 "Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many. And to those who look for Him He shall appear the second time without sin to salvation."
​

The 6th seal, 6th trumpet and 6th bowl of wrath all speak of the same thing. 6-6-6.