The Rapture is Post-trib

[ewq1938]

The only passage about the rapture that actually uses the Greek word that means a rapture, Harpazo.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Here we see the second coming mentioned 3 times, then the resurrection and then the rapture. This proves the rapture is connected to the second coming. All that needs to be proven is when the second coming happens to know when the rapture happens.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


The second coming happens AFTER the GT is over, so the rapture happens post-Trib. Circumventing these two passages is to ignore the scriptural evidence of WHEN the rapture is going to happen.

 

[Keraz]

The only passage about the rapture that actually uses the Greek word that means a rapture, Harpazo.

Of course, from those scriptures, we see that this 'harpazo' is not to heaven, but to where Jesus will be when He Returns; in Jerusalem.

 

[ewq1938]

Of course, from those scriptures, we see that this 'harpazo' is not to heaven, but to where Jesus will be when He Returns; in Jerusalem.

It does not say that. They are taken to the clouds. Certainly they will eventually be in Jerusalem but these verses do not say anything about that.

 

[Davy]

It does not say that. They are taken to the clouds. Certainly they will eventually be in Jerusalem but these verses do not say anything about that.

But it does... say it in the Zechariah 14 chapter.

The "day of the Lord" event is... the last day of this present world when Jesus comes to gather His saints.

And that word 'harpazo', is also the word used about Apostle Philip when after he had baptized the Ethiopian, God caught Philip up and translated him to another location on earth.

 

[ewq1938]

Here's an issue with pre-trib. The bible speaks of false Christs and even Antichrist's plus a singular mention of Antichrist is used by John. That's the one we think of ruling during the Great Tribulation. As a false Christ it is commonly believed he will imitate Christ and the things Christ will do. Revelation 13 mentions miracles being used to deceive people. Paul also said the man of sin would do the same (lying wonders). These miracles to deceive as not described so we have to guess. Well, it isn't much of a stretch to think a false Christ might produce a false rapture and even a false resurrection. The bible says our gathering to Christ will not happen until two things happen: the Apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin (the Antichrist). That means no rapture before the Great Tribulation starts. It endangers believers in the pre-trib doctrine because they could be deceived by the false Christ and any possible false rapture.

If you were the devil/ac etc and you wanted to deceive Christians, wouldn't you fake a second coming, resurrection and rapture and give them a "heavenly" experience of those things? It would be very hard to reject it all if you are pre-trib. Post-tribbers are expecting these deceiving miracles and that false Christ. Pre-tribbers aren't.

Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


Parlor tricks wouldn't be impressive enough to deceive people so these deceiving miracles will be huge things. I think making people feel immortal and making them feel like they had been raptured to heaven is not an outrageous idea. It's therefore extremely dangerous to believe that Jesus will just come down at any moment and rapture people. It goes against scripture and places them directly in the path of Apostasy. The most ironic and sad part of that is that most pre-tribbers believe the Apostasy (Apostasia in Greek) is the rapture rather than what it actually is, a fall away or defection from the truth, from Christ and Christianity.

When I post against pre-trib, I am hoping to save people from the possible mistake of an eternity. It's wiser to believe a post-trib rapture. It's scary but Christians have been in danger and murdered throughout Christian history. No one can "miss" the rapture. God knows who is meant to be raptured. Your belief in when it happens matters not to God.

 

[Davy]

Here's an issue with pre-trib. The bible speaks of false Christs and even Antichrist's plus a singular mention of Antichrist is used by John. That's the one we think of ruling during the Great Tribulation. As a false Christ it is commonly believed he will imitate Christ and the things Christ will do. Revelation 13 mentions miracles being used to deceive people. Paul also said the man of sin would do the same (lying wonders). These miracles to deceive as not described so we have to guess. Well, it isn't much of a stretch to think a false Christ might produce a false rapture and even a false resurrection. The bible says our gathering to Christ will not happen until two things happen: the Apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin (the Antichrist). That means no rapture before the Great Tribulation starts. It endangers believers in the pre-trib doctrine because they could be deceived by the false Christ and any possible false rapture.

If you were the devil/ac etc and you wanted to deceive Christians, wouldn't you fake a second coming, resurrection and rapture and give them a "heavenly" experience of those things? It would be very hard to reject it all if you are pre-trib. Post-tribbers are expecting these deceiving miracles and that false Christ. Pre-tribbers aren't.

Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


Parlor tricks wouldn't be impressive enough to deceive people so these deceiving miracles will be huge things. I think making people feel immortal and making them feel like they had been raptured to heaven is not an outrageous idea. It's therefore extremely dangerous to believe that Jesus will just come down at any moment and rapture people. It goes against scripture and places them directly in the path of Apostasy. The most ironic and sad part of that is that most pre-tribbers believe the Apostasy (Apostasia in Greek) is the rapture rather than what it actually is, a fall away or defection from the truth, from Christ and Christianity.

When I post against pre-trib, I am hoping to save people from the possible mistake of an eternity. It's wiser to believe a post-trib rapture. It's scary but Christians have been in danger and murdered throughout Christian history. No one can "miss" the rapture. God knows who is meant to be raptured. Your belief in when it happens matters not to God.

I'm with you on that, except not any idea that a 'fake' resurrection or rapture would be a real one.

Lord Jesus showed at the end of Luke 17 and in Matthew 24:28 that the deceived who believe they will be the first ones 'taken', will be like a dead "carcase" wheresoever the fowls are, the fowls representing Satan's host. This suggests the deceived trekking to the Antichrist and his servants when he comes; doesn't say how, nor that it will be a type of rapture. So we have to wonder about that.

Since the Rev.12:7-17 Scripture says Satan and his angels will be cast out of the Heavenly down to this earth in our dimension for the end, his angels could mimic the dead having been resurrected, as demons like the one the witch of Endor conjured up falsely appeared as Samuel the prophet to fool king Saul.

 

[07-07-07]

I'm personally uncertain about the timing of the Rapture, i.e., pre, mid, post. However, the recent mainstream interest in the once-scoffed-at UFO's and aliens theory gives credence to a pre-tribulation Rapture-explanation.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

The second coming happens AFTER the GT is over, so the rapture happens post-Trib. Circumventing these two passages is to ignore the scriptural evidence of WHEN the rapture is going to happen.

It would not matter if someone corrected you a million times you will never see the truth.

The Passage you and others so joyfully point to does not say what you say it says, it is just like Zech. 14:2-3 it has a spread of 1260 days when it switches ONE VERSE from 29-30.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh(the Anti-Christ conquers starting on THIS DAY see below), and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations,(Second Coming which is 1260 days LATER and so the THEN is a 42 month JUMP in time) as when he fought in the day of battle.

LIKEWISE we get the same 42 month JUMP in time with another THEN............in Matt. 24:29-30

Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days(as soon as the ASTEROIFD HITS in Rev. chapter 8) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (The the IMMEDATELY AFTER is referring to the Sun and Moon turning darker/dimmer like Joel 2:31 also prophesies)

30 And then (1260 days after the Asteroid or Wrath of God starts)shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So, you take the IMMEDIATELY which is about the Sun and Moon and apply it to the 2nd Coming. You just do not understand Prophecy, at all. God will make people answer for misleading people, even if by mistake. Check yourself.

Quit trying to teach that which you do not understand and ARE NOT CALLED UNTO.

 

[ewq1938]

It would not matter if someone corrected you a million times you will never see the truth.

It would not matter if someone corrected you a million times you will never see the truth.

So, you take the IMMEDIATELY which is about the Sun and Moon and apply it to the 2nd Coming. You just do not understand Prophecy, at all. God will make people answer for misleading people, even if by mistake. Check yourself.

Quit trying to teach that which you do not understand and ARE NOT CALLED UNTO.

Take your own advice. Everything you have said applies to you.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm personally uncertain about the timing of the Rapture, i.e., pre, mid, post. However, the recent mainstream interest in the once-scoffed-at UFO's and aliens theory gives credence to a pre-tribulation Rapture-explanation.

The bible only places the rapture post-trib at the second coming.


The only passage about the rapture that actually uses the Greek word that means a rapture, Harpazo:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Here we see the second coming mentioned 3 times, then the resurrection and then the rapture. This proves the rapture is connected to the second coming. All that needs to be proven is when the second coming happens to know when the rapture happens.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


The second coming happens AFTER the GT is over, so the rapture happens post-Trib. Circumventing these two passages is to ignore the scriptural evidence of WHEN the rapture is going to happen.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Take your own advice. Everything you have said applies to you.

I just DESTROYED your whole point. Those not called unto Prophecy just can not grasp why we get HUGE JUMPS in the TIMELINES, but anyone using common sense understands the at between these points, you can't give a DAILY 1260 day account or the chapter never gets finished.

I warned you to stop teaching that which you are not called to teach. God will take care of the rest on judgment day. You shack in heaven awaits you. I Destroyed your whole thesis.

 

[ewq1938]

I just DESTROYED your whole point. Those not called unto Prophecy just can not grasp why we get HUGE JUMPS in the TIMELINES, but anyone using common sense understands the at between these points, you can't give a DAILY 1260 day account or the chapter never gets finished.

I warned you to stop teaching that which you are not called to teach. God will take care of the rest on judgment day. You shack in heaven awaits you. I Destroyed your whole thesis.

No, you self deceive yourself into thinking this is true. You always make these empty claims. Again, you need to take your own advice. Stop teaching, you are not called to do so and that is evident by the unscriptural things you teach.

 

[Jay Ross]

No, you self deceive yourself into thinking this is true. You always make these empty claims. Again, you need to take your own advice. Stop teaching, you are not called to do so and that is evident by the unscriptural things you teach.

There are many on this forum that should refrain from "teaching" about the end times because they have not grasped the prophetic words that God has written into the scriptures at all. It is for this reason that confusion reign on this forum re the End Times.

 

[Davy]

I'm personally uncertain about the timing of the Rapture, i.e., pre, mid, post. However, the recent mainstream interest in the once-scoffed-at UFO's and aliens theory gives credence to a pre-tribulation Rapture-explanation.

Then you are way behind... in study of God's written Word. The greatest event of deception that has ever been during this present world is almost upon us today, and you admit you're not sure about when the rapture will happen?

 

[Davy]

It would not matter if someone corrected you a million times you will never see the truth.

The Passage you and others so joyfully point to does not say what you say it says, it is just like Zech. 14:2-3 it has a spread of 1260 days when it switches ONE VERSE from 29-30.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh(the Anti-Christ conquers starting on THIS DAY see below), and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

That part in red above is a LIE created by the false Pre-trib Rapture theory school.

The "day of the Lord" time is not until the LAST DAY of this present world, and is when Apostle Peter said God's consuming fire will burn the elements and man's works off this earth, per 2 Peter 3:10.

So just HOW... will the Anti-Christ start conquering on that day when Peter showed it's all over on that "day of the Lord"? How is it you don't understand that the Pre-trib Rapture doctors are lying to you about when that "day of the Lord" happens?!? Even Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.5 revealed God's "sudden destruction" will happen upon the wicked and deceived on that "day of the Lord".

The "day of the Lord" is the FIRST DAY of Christ's future "thousand years" reign over the whole earth with His elect of Rev.20.

 

[07-07-07]

Then you are way behind... in study of God's written Word. The greatest event of deception that has ever been during this present world is almost upon us today, and you admit you're not sure about when the rapture will happen?

The endtime signs are numerous nowadays, definitely pointing to the revelation of Jesus Christ in our generation; but the timing of the Rapture are theories of well-intentioned believers. I've heard and considered a lot of them; and many, if not all, will be wrong because they are all different. Will there be a Rapture? Yes. Timing? Uncertain in the Scriptures, that's why there are so many different viewpoints. You think that you have it all figured out, and so do so many others.

 

[Davy]

The endtime signs are numerous nowadays, definitely pointing to the revelation of Jesus Christ in our generation; but the timing of the Rapture are theories of well-intentioned believers. I've heard and considered a lot of them; and many, if not all, will be wrong because they are all different. Will there be a Rapture? Yes. Timing? Uncertain in the Scriptures, that's why there are so many different viewpoints. You think that you have it all figured out, and so do so many others.

I don't pay attention to 'theories', I heed God's Word as written. Theories are for the Biblically illiterate who are too lazy to read God's written Word for themselves.

Thus anyone who simply reads the time Lord Jesus said He comes to gather His saints, per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, will 'know'... the rapture will be AFTER the tribulation like He said. No theory needed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course, from those scriptures, we see that this 'harpazo' is not to heaven, but to where Jesus will be when He Returns; in Jerusalem.

No, it says we will meet Him "in the air", not in Jerusalem. If we were going to be with Him in Jerusalem then it would say we will be gathered and meet Him there, but it doesn't say that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is a question pre-tribs need to answer.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Who are these that "God will bring with Jesus" when He comes to gather His people to Himself? It says they are "those who have fallen asleep in him". Who else can this be except for the souls of the dead in Christ?

Pre-tribs like to say that Jesus will first come FOR His saints in a pre-trib rapture and then He later will come WITH His saints after the tribulation. But scripture says He will come both WITH and FOR His people at the same time. And that is indicated in this passage as well:

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Notice here that the elect are gathered both from throughout heaven AND from throughout the earth at Christ's coming AFTER the tribulation. The ones gathered from heaven are the souls of the dead in Christ and those gathered from earth are those who are alive and remain. The dead in Christ will be united with their changed, immortal bodies and they will be caught up together with those who are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[Timtofly]

There is a question pre-tribs need to answer.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Who are these that "God will bring with Jesus" when He comes to gather His people to Himself? It says they are "those who have fallen asleep in him". Who else can this be except for the souls of the dead in Christ?

Pre-tribs like to say that Jesus will first come FOR His saints in a pre-trib rapture and then He later will come WITH His saints after the tribulation. But scripture says He will come both WITH and FOR His people at the same time. And that is indicated in this passage as well:

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Notice here that the elect are gathered both from throughout heaven AND from throughout the earth at Christ's coming AFTER the tribulation. The ones gathered from heaven are the souls of the dead in Christ and those gathered from earth are those who are alive and remain. The dead in Christ will be united with their changed, immortal bodies and they will be caught up together with those who are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air.

Revelation 19 to Armageddon is not a coming to gather any one. It is only to kill all of humanity gathered at Armageddon. They all have the mark. No one is left on earth at that point without the mark. All others were beheaded.

The Coming of Jesus in Revelation 6, the 6th Seal is the time of Judgment to remove souls from the earth. The 5th Seal is the entire church glorified in the air. All of the redeemed, the church, are glorified at the same time at the 5th Seal. Not here and there at seperate times. That is before the 6th Seal. That is before the 7th Seal. And the Trumpets do not start until the 7th Seal is opened.

"And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne."

How can you twist these verses to say all the Trumpets already sounded before the 5th Seal was opened?

All the redeemed, the church, in these verses, the saints, were gathered before the Trumpets sounded.