Facts on Rev 20:4 before placing it into a system

[Behold]

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all prophecy,

Not at all.

As a matter of fact Christ (as a Prophet) Himself spoke prophetically many times, including and concerning what is to come as the "Trib-Grt Trib"

 

[Ghada]

Not at all.

As a matter of fact Christ (as a Prophet) Himself spoke prophetically many times, including and concerning what is to come as the "Trib-Grt Trib"

Oh no. Now you want to mangle prophecy as well as doctrine of Christ?

There is no prophecy of the Bible that is not revealed fulfilled in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

I am speaking of the last Book of the Bible, called 'The Revelation of Jesus Christ'.

 

[Davy]

Actually, it's the other way around. Man's vain philosophies try to turn the literal things of the Bible into more 'spiritual' things like fables.

That was actually my point. Man's philosophy trying to be used to replace... the literal Bible events. That's the same idea as trying to spiritualize God's Word when Scripture is literal, like what got Origen of the Alexandrian school in trouble, making the events in The Bible as only allegory.

Ah, well, so why didn't you say so in the first place? Sure, He will sit with His glory on David's throne on earth in Jerusalem. He will inherit and rule all nations with the Shepherd's right scepter and rod of iron.

Most try to say Jesus is now sitting in Heaven on The Father's throne, and that Jesus has already taken His inherited throne. That idea is not Biblical.

Although this is an interesting take on Rev 3:21, that I had not considered before, it's not accurate. The words themselves show it is the throne of the Father. The Father's throne. Also it is the throne given Jesus that He is now set in. Not one later on earth.

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Ah... there it is, a false interpretation that Jesus is now sitting in His inherited throne of His father David. No, He is not come to earth yet to sit upon His throne of inheritance from David.

And that verse is an 'expression' of His being in Authority in Heaven with The Father and His throne, while Jesus is sitting on the right hand of The Father right now.

1 Peter 3:21-22
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto Him.
KJV

He am now set in the Father's throne.

This is what happens if we begin to play with some words of the Bible and symbolize their literalcy away. We begin to stop taking other words of the Bible literally, if we don't agree with them.

You will find multiple verses where it is declared Lord Jesus sitting on the RIGHT HAND of The Father's throne. So that ain't... playing with the Scriptures, which is just your vain attempt to mock my Biblical understanding:

Jesus sitting on the RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER'S THRONE first written in Psalms 110:1, then...
Matthew 22:44;
Mark 12:36;
Luke 20:42;
Romans 8:34;
Ephesians 1:20;
Colossians 3:1;
Hebrews 1:2;
Hebrews 1:13;
Hebrews 8:1;
Hebrews 10:12;
Hebrews 12:2.

So how many Bible witnesses of that Revelation 3:21 example you posted of Jesus saying He is sit down with The Father in His throne, can you find? One. Does that not give you a clue as to which Scripture is meant as an expression, i.e., the Rev.3:21 verse?

True, His kingdom of heaven will come with Him on earth, to do the will of the Father, when He comes a second time to rule them of all the earth.

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

This is not just seeking the kingdom of heaven and the will of God done in our own lives today, but is sure prophecy of the Lord's kingdom stablished over all the earth during His millennium reign.

Jesus still today has NOT inherited His father David's throne yet, since He ascended to The Father per Acts 1, sitting on the RIGHT HAND of The Father's throne in Heaven, still expecting until all His enemies are made His footstool.

 

[Behold]

I am speaking of the last Book of the Bible, called 'The Revelation of Jesus Christ'.

Well, the Bible is the Foreknowledge of God, and there are still yet prophecies "on the way".
Some were given by Jesus.

If you end up in the Trib and Grt Trib, then you have entered into some of the prophecies given by Jesus., when He was on the earth.

 

[Ghada]

That was actually my point. Man's philosophy trying to be used to replace... the literal Bible events.

Very good. I believe symbolizing literal events is only a means of denying what we don't want to believe. With prophecy it's such a big deal, though it can be frustrating to make a case, only to see someone slough it off by symbologizing.

However, some apply it to doctrine and the gospel, and that is destructive to the life and soul.

That's the same idea as trying to spiritualize God's Word when Scripture is literal, like what got Origen of the Alexandrian school in trouble, making the events in The Bible as only allegory.

True. I believe it begins with an intellectual enjoyment for allegory, etc... But it can lead to destroying the doctrine of Christ also.

Most try to say Jesus is now sitting in Heaven on The Father's throne, and that Jesus has already taken His inherited throne. That idea is not Biblical.

Well, He does sit on the right hand of the Father and the majesty on high. Literally speaking that's in the same throne, because it's not saying on a throne to His right.

Also, He speaks of now being set down with His Father in His Father's throne.

That ends the argument.

So you may not be symbolizing things here, but your certainly not taking all of God's words and meanings literally. In the case Rev 3:21.

Ah... there it is, a false interpretation that Jesus is now sitting in His inherited throne of His father David.

Really? You've moved into whole new territory here. David ceased being Jesus' father after the flesh, when Jesus died and was resurrected from the dead.

David is not the 'father' of the risen Son in heaven, no more than Mary is His 'mother'.

You're displaying some Catholic mysticism here.

No, He is not come to earth yet to sit upon His throne of inheritance from David.

Christ is not yet set down on the throne of David on earth. That's why He reveals He is set down now with His Father in His Father's throne.

Also, Jesus Christ does not inherit from David, but David inherits from Christ, even as all men believing and obeying Him.

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

It is God the Father that gives all things to the Son to inherit, not David. That includes the earthly throne of David. In Ezekiel, David is not at his throne on earth handing it over to the Lord of glory, when He enters into His ruling house to sit on the throne of His kingdom on earth.

Your idolizing of David as our Lord's father giving 'his Son' inheritance on earth, is not good.

Jesus was by flesh alone the son of David on earth, because of the seed of David in Mary's womb, of which the Holy Ghost prepared the body of the Word to come down out of heaven and dwell in.

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

That's how Jesus was also by flesh alone, the son of Abraham.

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Jesus the babe and child and man was a natural child of Abraham and Israel, and a Jew. His flesh was also made of the seed of Abraham, just like all natural born Jews. That seed was in Mary's flesh, since she too was of the seed of Abraham and Israel.

And that verse is an 'expression' of His being in Authority in Heaven with The Father and His throne, while Jesus is sitting on the right hand of The Father right now.

So, you do symbolize and allegorize in order to do away with the literal things in heaven and on earth. Rev 3:21, is just as definitive as John 1:1, where the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Not believing Rev 3:21 is the same as not taking John 1:1 literally. They stand alone as final proof of any wrangling over interpretations of all other verses of the Bible, that have to do with the Godhead, and where our risen Lord now sits in the throne room of heaven.

Also of course, there is no verse about there being two thrones seen in heaven nor, nor with the new heaven and earth.

You will find multiple verses where it is declared Lord Jesus sitting on the RIGHT HAND of The Father's throne.

And now of course you purposely write your own verse, that wrongly interprets certain verses, that also rejects 3:21.

You are displaying the same example of unbelief in simple words of the Bible, that others do in prophecy. Those that say there is no thousand year reign of the Lord on earth, likewise reject the simple words of Rev 19:15, that says the returning Lord shall smite the nations, and then rule them with a rod of iron.

So that ain't... playing with the Scriptures

No, not playing. Peter calls it wrestling with them. And not in a friendly way at all.

, which is just your vain attempt to mock my Biblical understanding:

If disagreeing with you and showing why, is mockery to you, then you're too touchy. In this simple point, your Bible understanding is marred by unbelief in single inescapable verse of the Bible.

Jesus sitting on the RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER'S THRONE first written in Psalms 110:1, then...

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

At His throne's right hand is of course your insert into the Bible verse. You write your own verse here.

Matthew 22:44;
Mark 12:36;
Luke 20:42;
Romans 8:34;
Ephesians 1:20;
Colossians 3:1;
Hebrews 1:2;
Hebrews 1:13;
Hebrews 8:1;
Hebrews 10:12;
Hebrews 12:2.

So how many Bible witnesses of that Revelation 3:21 example you posted of Jesus saying He is sit down with The Father in His throne, can you find? One.

You have it backward again. You're trying to make your new personal verse the deciding factor of these other verses, But Rev 3:21 is the deciding proof on how to interpret all the other verses, that pertain to where our Lord is now sitting in heaven.

It's the same as John 1:1 is the deciding proof ending all arguments about the Godhead.

Does that not give you a clue as to which Scripture is meant as an expression, i.e., the Rev.3:21 verse?

Not at all. As I just explained to you. It is simple belief in what Rev 3:21 says, that gives proof to the reading and interpretation of all other verses about where our resurrected Lord is now seated on the right hand of the Father, with the Father, in the throne of the Father.

That is simple Bible from Rev 3:21. Your verse of seated on the right hand of the Father's throne, is all your own There is no such verse in the Bible, unless you want to put it somewhere in your own Bible.

Jesus still today has NOT inherited His father David's throne yet, since He ascended to The Father per Acts 1, sitting on the RIGHT HAND of The Father's throne in Heaven, still expecting until all His enemies are made His footstool.

I already explained why this doctrine of yours is not Bible, but all your very own. And you are most welcome to it, to read it with the Bible. You can even put it in the Bible somewhere, so that you can read it to yourself alongside the Bible verses themselves.

 

[Ghada]

Well, the Bible is the Foreknowledge of God, and there are still yet prophecies "on the way".

So, you want to write your own new prophecies as well as doctrine.

There are no new doctrines, gospels, prophecies, revelations of God 'on the way'. Men's yes, not God's.

Some were given by Jesus.

All prophecies and Scripture are given by the Spirit of Christ. There are no new ones waiting to be revealed to anyone in this life.

If you end up in the Trib and Grt Trib, then you have entered into some of the prophecies given by Jesus., when He was on the earth.

Once again. Your carnal minded view of Christ does not see how the Spirit and testimony of Christ is the source for all prophecies of the Bible, beginning with the OTY prophets, the NT apostles, and the final prophecy of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[ScottA]

These are just a few of the evidences that show the scriptures to be written as if in tongues and in need of interpretation, as the words are not only literary, but more importantly spirit.

 

[Behold]

There are no new doctrines, gospels, prophecies, revelations of God 'on the way'

Why do you think there are "New" ?

There are no "New".. there are only those that have happened, and those that are to come, as recorded in the word of God. (Bible).

 

[Davy]

Very good. I believe symbolizing literal events is only a means of denying what we don't want to believe. With prophecy it's such a big deal, though it can be frustrating to make a case, only to see someone slough it off by symbologizing.

However, some apply it to doctrine and the gospel, and that is destructive to the life and soul.

I agree. But I don't think it's that difficult when God's Word is giving an allegory, or parable, or idiom, or metaphor. It's simply like how all languages use metaphors, expression, and idiom. I don't see that being difficult to realize when God's Word does that compared to describing literal events that are prophesied for the future, or that happened in the past.

Take for example 2 Corinthians 11 by Apostle Paul, when he said he 'espoused' those in Christ to one Husband as a "chaste virgin". Literal or allegory? Allegory about faithfulness of course, easy.

True. I believe it begins with an intellectual enjoyment for allegory, etc... But it can lead to destroying the doctrine of Christ also.

I disagree. The allegory has to be understood first. And if one does not first understand, then they have no business preaching about it. Our Heavenly Father and His Son gave us parable, allegory, metaphors, etc. to make understanding in His Word EASIER, not more difficult. Everyone no matter what language, understands and uses the idea of allegory, metaphor, simile, idiom, etc. That's why He uses it in His Word. And Hebrew has many of them. So if one doesn't understand the allegory in the first place, like I said before, then they won't understand how it properly connects to Bible doctrine. In the case of 2 Cor.11 about the "chaste virgin" idea from Apostle Paul, that is about falling away to worship another in place of our Lord Jesus. That is the doctrine Paul gets into there.

Well, He does sit on the right hand of the Father and the majesty on high. Literally speaking that's in the same throne, because it's not saying on a throne to His right.

'Literally' speaking, it is NOT the same throne. There would be no need for the Scripture, and many examples of Scripture, declaring Jesus sitting on the right hand of The Father's throne if it were mere allegory. And that is what one is saying when they claim that means He is sitting in The Father's throne. They are saying the right hand idea is mere allegory. It is not.

Also, He speaks of now being set down with His Father in His Father's throne.

That ends the argument.

It may end 'your' personal argument you may have with yourself, and think that only exists, but it does not align with all the many Bible Scriptures that declare Jesus sitting on the RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER'S THRONE. I gave the list, so that means you REJECT that Scripture list by not believing them.

And that's EVIDENCE ENOUGH that you REJECT those Bible verses I showed, which means there's no further need for me to discuss this with you.